What would happen if..? (Political scenario)

[Sir_Galahad]

Say McCain selects Kay Bailey Hutchinson as his running mate in order to attempt to get the woman vote. And, by virtue of this, he does get elected. Now, let's say Hutchinson has second thoughts and decides to resign a few months down the road (can she do this?). Does McCain get to select a new VP or is an election held to replace her?

[MarleysGh0st]

Sure, a vice president can resign--just ask Spiro Agnew.

Then, according to the 25th Amendment:

Section 2. Whenever there is a vacancy in the office of the Vice President, the President shall nominate a Vice President who shall take office upon confirmation by a majority vote of both Houses of Congress.

[SportsFan68]

What happens if the person who is elected President dies before s/he takes office? Does the person who was elected VP automatically assume the Presidency in January?

[Ritterskoop]

What happens if the person who is elected President dies before s/he takes office? Does the person who was elected VP automatically assume the Presidency in January?

I think not. I think the Constitution provides for what happens once someone takes office.

The parties or the people or someone else figures out what to do if there is a problem before someone takes office. Since the parties are not provided for in the document, it's not immediately obvious. But I'm sure we can figure it out.

I'd like to go back to the original system, where whoever didn't win for President became VP. That way the two most-preferred people are in office.

[MarleysGh0st]

What happens if the person who is elected President dies before s/he takes office? Does the person who was elected VP automatically assume the Presidency in January?

That one, I'm not sure about.

It was VP-on-the-verge-of-being-elected Leo McGarry who died on election night, during the final season of The West Wing.

[starfish1113]

What happens if the person who is elected President dies before s/he takes office? Does the person who was elected VP automatically assume the Presidency in January?

From Wikipedia, so take it for what it's worth:

In the United States, the members of the U.S. Electoral College are elected by the people in November once every four years; in December, they are in session and in turn elect the President of the United States; finally, the President of the United States assumes office in January. One is officially the president-elect only after being chosen by the Electoral College, but unofficially the person chosen in the November popular election is called the President-elect even before the Electoral College meets. An example of the practical effect of the official status is found in the U.S. Constitution's provision that if the President-elect dies, then the Vice President-elect becomes president on Inauguration Day. That rule takes effect only after the meeting of the Electoral College. If the person unofficially called the President-elect dies before that meeting, then the Electoral College would have broad discretion to choose some other person.

[Ritterskoop]

For instance, in the current situation, say Obama is elected President, with Biden as VP.

Say Obama dies between November and January, and does not assume office.

Would those who voted for Obama prefer that Biden be President, or Hillary Clinton? They should have a chance to say, even if it's only through Democratic Party delegates.



I picked the Democratic names because I am more familiar with them.

[MarleysGh0st]

For instance, in the current situation, say Obama is elected President, with Biden as VP.

Say Obama dies between November and January, and does not assume office.

Would those who voted for Obama prefer that Biden be President, or Hillary Clinton? They should have a chance to say, even if it's only through Democratic Party delegates.



I picked the Democratic names because I am more familiar with them.

Assuming Wikipedia is correct, if the President-elect dies before the Electoral College votes, then it's up in the air (with all of the Electoral College, not just those pledged to the late, victorious candidate) having a say. I suspect the presumptive VP-elect would be selected, to avoid a messy free-for-all.

I also suspect that this situation would only have to happen once, before the Electoral College was amended out of existance!

[andrewjackson]

What happens if the person who is elected President dies before s/he takes office? Does the person who was elected VP automatically assume the Presidency in January?

There is actually a cascade of events along the way that should "solve" the situation.

The Electoral College vote (this year on December 15). If the presumptive winner on November 4 dies before that date you might see an interesting vote in the Electoral College but I'd guess whoever wins a majority of that vote would become the next President.

Congress has to certify the vote of the Electoral College in January (or the House of Representatives has to vote if the Electoral College doesn't have a winner). If the presumptive winner dies before this, I could see the Congress certify the presumptive-VP as President.

If someone dies in the short interval left, I'd say that the VP would get sworn in on Inauguration Day.


The trickiest would probably be if the nominee dies between the Convention and Election Day. The party would then presumably get to pick a new nominee. That would probably be more chaotic than any of the scenarios above.

[earendel]

For instance, in the current situation, say Obama is elected President, with Biden as VP.

Say Obama dies between November and January, and does not assume office.

Would those who voted for Obama prefer that Biden be President, or Hillary Clinton? They should have a chance to say, even if it's only through Democratic Party delegates.



I picked the Democratic names because I am more familiar with them.

Everything I've been able to unearth indicates that if the Electoral College has made its selection then that person is President-elect. If the President-elect dies, then the Vice President-elect becomes President-elect. After the inauguration the new President would nominate someone to serve as VP and Congress would confirm that selection.

[earendel]

The trickiest would probably be if the nominee dies between the Convention and Election Day. The party would then presumably get to pick a new nominee. That would probably be more chaotic than any of the scenarios above.

Allen Drury wrote about this back in the 60s. His most famous book was Advise and Consent but he followed it up with a series of books that were "sequals" to A&C, one of which featured the death of a candidate after nomination by the party but before Election Day. Interestingly Preserve and Protect (the book featuring the death of the candidate (the President), ends with the new presidential and vice-presidential candidates at a rally, and one of the two men is assassinated. Drury then wrote TWO sequals, depicting what would have happened based on which man survived - The Promise of Joy and Come Nineveh, Come Tyre.

[andrewjackson]

The trickiest would probably be if the nominee dies between the Convention and Election Day. The party would then presumably get to pick a new nominee. That would probably be more chaotic than any of the scenarios above.

Allen Drury wrote about this back in the 60s. His most famous book was Advise and Consent but he followed it up with a series of books that were "sequals" to A&C, one of which featured the death of a candidate after nomination by the party but before Election Day. Interestingly Preserve and Protect (the book featuring the death of the candidate (the President), ends with the new presidential and vice-presidential candidates at a rally, and one of the two men is assassinated. Drury then wrote TWO sequals, depicting what would have happened based on which man survived - The Promise of Joy and Come Nineveh, Come Tyre.

Oh, I can definitely see where that would make a good book. This year would make an even better one in terms of a book. In either party but the fight in the Democratic Party would probably be the most fun to watch.

Not that I want that to happen. A nice boring election with a clear-cut winner who sails through the Electoral College and Inauguration would be a nice change.

[earendel]

The trickiest would probably be if the nominee dies between the Convention and Election Day. The party would then presumably get to pick a new nominee. That would probably be more chaotic than any of the scenarios above.

Allen Drury wrote about this back in the 60s. His most famous book was Advise and Consent but he followed it up with a series of books that were "sequals" to A&C, one of which featured the death of a candidate after nomination by the party but before Election Day. Interestingly Preserve and Protect (the book featuring the death of the candidate (the President), ends with the new presidential and vice-presidential candidates at a rally, and one of the two men is assassinated. Drury then wrote TWO sequals, depicting what would have happened based on which man survived - The Promise of Joy and Come Nineveh, Come Tyre.

Oh, I can definitely see where that would make a good book. This year would make an even better one in terms of a book. In either party but the fight in the Democratic Party would probably be the most fun to watch.

Not that I want that to happen. A nice boring election with a clear-cut winner who sails through the Electoral College and Inauguration would be a nice change.

Funny you should say that - the second sequal to A&C (following A Shade of Difference), Capable of Honor deals with a situation in which the sitting President, an affable but inept man, seeks his party's nomination, only to be challenged by the governor of California. Mind you, this was in the days of the "smoke-filled room" rather than the current situation. At the convention the governor challenges the President but loses by a narrow margin and expects to be named the VP candidate because of the support he has. But the President chooses someone else and the governor (and the delegates who supported him) walk out of the convention. The book ends with speculation about a third-party bid by the governor.

[MarleysGh0st]

Allen Drury wrote about this back in the 60s. His most famous book was Advise and Consent but he followed it up with a series of books that were "sequals" to A&C, one of which featured the death of a candidate after nomination by the party but before Election Day. Interestingly Preserve and Protect (the book featuring the death of the candidate (the President), ends with the new presidential and vice-presidential candidates at a rally, and one of the two men is assassinated. Drury then wrote TWO sequals, depicting what would have happened based on which man survived - The Promise of Joy and Come Nineveh, Come Tyre.

I read this whole series of Cold War political thrillers when I was a teenager. You, too, ear?

Spoiler

Wikipedia doesn't have entries for Come Nineveh, Come Tyre or The Promise of Joy; was it the latter which had the Soviet Union overthrown, the Chinese Red Army invading Russia, and the U.S. President siding with the new Russian government at the end of the in some manner that wasn't spelled out, but which I guessed to involve launching nukes against those invading Chinese?

[gsabc]

Allen Drury wrote about this back in the 60s. His most famous book was Advise and Consent but he followed it up with a series of books that were "sequals" to A&C, one of which featured the death of a candidate after nomination by the party but before Election Day. Interestingly Preserve and Protect (the book featuring the death of the candidate (the President), ends with the new presidential and vice-presidential candidates at a rally, and one of the two men is assassinated. Drury then wrote TWO sequals, depicting what would have happened based on which man survived - The Promise of Joy and Come Nineveh, Come Tyre.

I read this whole series of Cold War political thrillers when I was a teenager. You, too, ear?

Add me to the list. My memory about them is not too clear, though. Ever read his Egyptian Pharoah books?

[MarleysGh0st]

Add me to the list. My memory about them is not too clear, though. Ever read his Egyptian Pharoah books?

Yes!

I might remember a little more of those plots than of the Advice and Consent series. (Except that I was just on Wikipedia refreshing my memory there.)

[earendel]

Allen Drury wrote about this back in the 60s. His most famous book was Advise and Consent but he followed it up with a series of books that were "sequals" to A&C, one of which featured the death of a candidate after nomination by the party but before Election Day. Interestingly Preserve and Protect (the book featuring the death of the candidate (the President), ends with the new presidential and vice-presidential candidates at a rally, and one of the two men is assassinated. Drury then wrote TWO sequals, depicting what would have happened based on which man survived - The Promise of Joy and Come Nineveh, Come Tyre.

I read this whole series of Cold War political thrillers when I was a teenager. You, too, ear?

Yeah.

Spoiler

Wikipedia doesn't have entries for Come Nineveh, Come Tyre or The Promise of Joy; was it the latter which had the Soviet Union overthrown, the Chinese Red Army invading Russia, and the U.S. President siding with the new Russian government at the end of the in some manner that wasn't spelled out, but which I guessed to involve launching nukes against those invading Chinese?

Spoiler

Preserve and Protect ended with the candidates at a rally; one was assassinated, the other lived. In Come Nineveh, Come Tyre it was the VP candidate (the governor of California) who survived. He was weak and malleable and throughout the book the Soviet Union pushed him around, even invading Alaska. In the end he and the VP ended up committing suicide and were replaced by the Speaker of the House, who was in bed with the Soviets all along. In The Promise of Joy it was the presidential candidate (a conservative) that survived. The Soviets and the Chinese launched attacks against the US in Africa and elsewhere but the president stood firm and eventually the two Communist nations exchanged nuclear attacks. Both appealed to the US and the UN for mediation after overthrowing their governments and becoming "The United States of Russia" and "The United Chinese Republic". In the end, however, they went back to war, with the Chinese looking as if they were going to win. The US president announced that he would send troops to intervene but didn't say on which side, which was a cliffhanger for the next book (which never came).

[PlacentiaSoccerMom]

Say McCain selects Kay Bailey Hutchinson as his running mate in order to attempt to get the woman vote. And, by virtue of this, he does get elected. Now, let's say Hutchinson has second thoughts and decides to resign a few months down the road (can she do this?). Does McCain get to select a new VP or is an election held to replace her?

Do you think that he will pick Lieberman or Huckabee?

[SportsFan68]

Say McCain selects Kay Bailey Hutchinson as his running mate in order to attempt to get the woman vote. And, by virtue of this, he does get elected. Now, let's say Hutchinson has second thoughts and decides to resign a few months down the road (can she do this?). Does McCain get to select a new VP or is an election held to replace her?

Do you think that he will pick Lieberman or Huckabee?

Romney.

[TheCalvinator24]

My money would still be on Pawlenty as the first choice. Hutchison is an interesting prospect, but I believe she really wants to come home to Texas and run for Governor.

I'm not sure I would want Huckabee on the ticket (even though he was my candidate of choice in the Primary), and if Romney is the VP Choice, I'll be voting for a 3rd Party Nominee.

[kayrharris]

My head hurts. I think I'd rather talk about brownies.

[admanvii]

In a scary thought 4 people were arrested with high powered rifles in Denver. The local authorities are down playing the incident but one suspect claimed that two were there to shoot Obama. Here is the link from BBC News.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7581611.stm

[SportsFan68]

In a scary thought 4 people were arrested with high powered rifles in Denver. The local authorities are down playing the incident but one suspect claimed that two were there to shoot Obama. Here is the link from BBC News.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7581611.stm

Except for the rifles, this is like the boneheads who showed up at one of the convention venues with Old West bank robber type bandannas over their faces. I walked by and laughed. I think they woulda been cute if they weren't so stupid.

[wbtravis007]

Say McCain selects Kay Bailey Hutchinson as his running mate in order to attempt to get the woman vote. And, by virtue of this, he does get elected. Now, let's say Hutchinson has second thoughts and decides to resign a few months down the road (can she do this?). Does McCain get to select a new VP or is an election held to replace her?

I udnerstand the hypotheticalfillocity of the question.

His people wouldn't be dumb enough to choose her.

Trust me on this.

[etaoin22]

The right of an office-holder to resign should not be assumed. In Great Britain, members of the House of Commons do not have such an automatic right (back from the olden tymes, when the Commons had to stand together against the King)

In the case of the VP posited here, I would argue that her actions would be a violation of her oath of office (somewhat different from the Presidential oath, and identical to that taken by cabinet officers), in the sense that choosing to leave so quickly is not a "well and faithful discharge" as has been sworn to be upheld.

Not that I would force someone to be VP who does not wish to do so, but I would want to make it clear that a resignation must be intended as a complete departure from public life.