Breaking Story! Girls as Good at Math as Boys!

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Here's Fanny! · #1 Post by **Here's Fanny!** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:09 pm

http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/07/2 ... -math.html

In other news, boys can hem pants and girls can change timing chains.

My mom was the only girl in her trig, calculus and physics classes. But that was 50 years ago! (Exactly 50 years, her class reunion is 6 weeks.)

My niece was talking the other night about her classes for this year. After she rattled them off, I told her I could help her with everything except Algebra 2, she'd have to go to Grandma for that.

Beebs52 · #2 Post by **Beebs52** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:27 pm

Truly.

I wish I'd kept on with math. I only went through, I guess, trigonometry, whichever was the one before algebra 2 or something. Or calc.

I loved algebra. It was just another language to learn; but if you don't use it you lose it. Surprisingly, weirdly, and whoknowshowly, I did better on my math SAT portion than verbal. Shocked the shiite outta me.

andrewjackson · #3 Post by **andrewjackson** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:40 pm

First, I have no doubt that girls can do as well as boys in math. Second, I know this would be getting off on a side-track but I have a semi-serious question.

There are things that women are considered better at then men. Not all women but women in general. Would you agree with that? I think most people would. But how about the converse? That there are things that men are better at then women. Again not all men but men in general. Even with the qualifier that seems to be a much more controversial statement and you would get lots of people denying that could be true.

Doesn't it make sense that if women are better at some things, then men would be better at some things? I guess it is possible that women are better or at least equal at everything but is that likely?

I know this will lead to all sorts of joke responses in this thread but I'm curious to see how people respond.

Here's Fanny! · #4 Post by **Here's Fanny!** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:44 pm

Beebs52 wrote:Truly.

I wish I'd kept on with math. I only went through, I guess, trigonometry, whichever was the one before algebra 2 or something. Or calc.

I loved algebra. It was just another language to learn; but if you don't use it you lose it. Surprisingly, weirdly, and whoknowshowly, I did better on my math SAT portion than verbal. Shocked the shiite outta me.

I only went as far as stoner math in 9th grade, but I had a beginning algebra class when I went to business school. I liked it, to me it was like a puzzle and it appealed to my sense of symmetry.

Here's Fanny! · #5 Post by **Here's Fanny!** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:52 pm

andrewjackson wrote:First, I have no doubt that girls can do as well as boys in math. Second, I know this would be getting off on a side-track but I have a semi-serious question.

There are things that women are considered better at then men. Not all women but women in general. Would you agree with that? I think most people would.

I can't agree with that without a more specific example than "things".

andrewjackson wrote:But how about the converse? That there are things that men are better at then women. Again not all men but men in general. Even with the qualifier that seems to be a much more controversial statement and you would get lots of people denying that could be true.

Actually, I could tend to agree more with this just on a physical basis, as the average man is stronger than the average woman, just because of body composition.

andrewjackson wrote:Doesn't it make sense that if women are better at some things, then men would be better at some things? I guess it is possible that women are better or at least equal at everything but is that likely?

Not really because, again, you're referring to 'some things'. What things?

I truly don't believe that there is gender aptitude strictly on a mental level. There is conditioning in genetics, upbringing, family beliefs and environment. But, given two virgin brains, I think those better at maths and sciences v. those better at liberal arts would be pretty evenly divided between male and female, it would come down to the aptitude of the individual brain, not the sex of the housing.

Beebs52 · #6 Post by **Beebs52** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 2:56 pm

andrewjackson wrote:First, I have no doubt that girls can do as well as boys in math. Second, I know this would be getting off on a side-track but I have a semi-serious question.

There are things that women are considered better at then men. Not all women but women in general. Would you agree with that? I think most people would. But how about the converse? That there are things that men are better at then women. Again not all men but men in general. Even with the qualifier that seems to be a much more controversial statement and you would get lots of people denying that could be true.

Doesn't it make sense that if women are better at some things, then men would be better at some things? I guess it is possible that women are better or at least equal at everything but is that likely?

I know this will lead to all sorts of joke responses in this thread but I'm curious to see how people respond.

Absolutely, you're right on all counts. And perhaps "better" might not even be an appropriate descriptor, depending on the skill or characteristic or whatever.

I truly believe most men, not all, are "get to the point" people. Forget the touchy-feely feeling vibes before you get to the point, which I think a lot of women do. I think that as I've gotten older I've assumed much more of that mindset when faced with a dilemma or just in the work place.
In other words, unless we're just schmoozing around and wasting time, I want to know who/how/what/where/when, expedient path, that sort of thing.
I also think that if one has been married for a long time one osmoses some of one's spouse's characteristics. Both ways. Or maybe it's just an age thing.

Anyway, I think you're right.

Here's Fanny! · #7 Post by **Here's Fanny!** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:00 pm

andrewjackson wrote:I know this will lead to all sorts of joke responses in this thread but I'm curious to see how people respond.

Maybe, and I admit I was going for humour in my original post. But I find the subject very interesting. Especially as I am not a feminist and I have been bashed for stating that I don't think men and women are equal.

And, no, I don't follow that up with "because woman are superior!". Men and women are different, one isn't necessarily better than the other but they are not equal, just different.

I do, however, believe that there is no better or worse in a brain.

andrewjackson · #8 Post by **andrewjackson** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:00 pm

Things? Anything. Any skill or ability.

You've never heard "women are better than men at ____"? I'll bet you have. What was your reaction to that? Agreement, disagreement, or disregarding the possibility?

And then the converse, "men are better than women at _____". What was your reaction to that? Was it the same as the first situation?

That's my question. It seems to me that people are at least willing to consider that women are better at some things but not that men are.

Maybe that's just my perception.

And I just realized I kept typing "then" in my first post when I meant "than".

Here's Fanny! · #9 Post by **Here's Fanny!** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:05 pm

andrewjackson wrote:Things? Anything. Any skill or ability.

You've never heard "women are better than men at ____"? I'll bet you have. What was your reaction to that? Agreement, disagreement, or disregarding the possibility?

And then the converse, "men are better than women _____". What was your reaction to that? Was it the same as the first situation?

That's my question. It seems to me that people are at least willing to consider that women are better at some things but not that men are.

Maybe that's just my perception.

And I just realized I kept typing "then" in my first post when I meant "than".

I guess I just can't give a total general answer with any skill, any ability, any ________. So I don't have a reaction because I really don't know what you're talking about.

I've already stated that physically, the average man is better at lifting steel beams than the average woman. That's just physiology. So, if I go with that, I guess women are better at breast feeding and men are better at peeing standing up.

But a skill or talent that doesn't rely on physicality? No, I really can't think of anything that either men OR women are better at in general.

As far as

That's my question. It seems to me that people are at least willing to consider that women are better at some things but not that men are.

If I had to choose a side, I'd choose the opposite one. Women are supposed to be better at the domestic arts, but most of the great chefs and designers are men.

peacock2121 · #10 Post by **peacock2121** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:06 pm

andrewjackson wrote:First, I have no doubt that girls can do as well as boys in math. Second, I know this would be getting off on a side-track but I have a semi-serious question.

There are things that women are considered better at then men. Not all women but women in general. Would you agree with that? I think most people would. But how about the converse? That there are things that men are better at then women. Again not all men but men in general. Even with the qualifier that seems to be a much more controversial statement and you would get lots of people denying that could be true.

Doesn't it make sense that if women are better at some things, then men would be better at some things? I guess it is possible that women are better or at least equal at everything but is that likely?

I know this will lead to all sorts of joke responses in this thread but I'm curious to see how people respond.

I think that there are things that more females are 'naturally' good at than males are 'naturally' good at. I think there are things that more males are 'naturally' good at than females are.

I think we get into 'arguments' when we say it "men are better at that than woman'. It simply is not universally true.

Beebs52 · #11 Post by **Beebs52** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:09 pm

Here's Fanny! wrote:
andrewjackson wrote:Things? Anything. Any skill or ability.

You've never heard "women are better than men at ____"? I'll bet you have. What was your reaction to that? Agreement, disagreement, or disregarding the possibility?

And then the converse, "men are better than women _____". What was your reaction to that? Was it the same as the first situation?

That's my question. It seems to me that people are at least willing to consider that women are better at some things but not that men are.

Maybe that's just my perception.

And I just realized I kept typing "then" in my first post when I meant "than".
I guess I just can't give a total general answer with any skill, any ability, any ________. So I don't have a reaction because I really don't know what you're talking about.

I've already stated that physically, the average man is better at lifting steel beams than the average woman. That's just physiology. So, if I go with that, I guess women are better at breast feeding and men are better at peeing standing up.

But a skill or talent that doesn't rely on physicality? No, I really can't think of anything that either men OR women are better at in general.

I gotta agree with the Fan here, too. She expressed what I was trying to say earlier. Some physical attributes are indisputable, of course depending on the individuals involved. My neighbors, all over 6 feet tall, including women, could outdunk and maneuver most anybody in basketball, but most women aren't over 6 feet tall.

andrewjackson · #12 Post by **andrewjackson** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:16 pm

Here's Fanny! wrote:
I guess I just can't give a total general answer with any skill, any ability, any ________. So I don't have a reaction because I really don't know what you're talking about.

This is amazing to me. Google: women are better than men

There will be lots of junk stuff but on the first two pages I see:

women better than men at remembering

women cooperate better than men

Women endure pain and monotonous work better than men

men are better than women at solving certain sorts of spatial problems

Women are better drivers than men

Women are better than men at remembering the appearance of others

Women tend to be better than men at empowering staff

Women handle money better than men

Women Lie More, Better Than Men,

peacock2121 · #13 Post by **peacock2121** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:19 pm

over 29 millions hits for "men are better than woman".

It's like saying Asians are better at math than Americans.

peacock2121 · #14 Post by **peacock2121** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:21 pm

over 29 millions hits for "men are better than woman".

It's like saying Asians are better at math than Americans.

Beebs52 · #15 Post by **Beebs52** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:22 pm

andrewjackson wrote:
Here's Fanny! wrote:
I guess I just can't give a total general answer with any skill, any ability, any ________. So I don't have a reaction because I really don't know what you're talking about.
This is amazing to me. Google: women are better than men

There will be lots of junk stuff but on the first two pages I see:

women better than men at remembering

women cooperate better than men

Women endure pain and monotonous work better than men

men are better than women at solving certain sorts of spatial problems

Women are better drivers than men

Women are better than men at remembering the appearance of others

Women tend to be better than men at empowering staff

Women handle money better than men

Women Lie More, Better Than Men,

AJ-Google is called Google for a reason. It isn't called Truth. Some of these are totally laughable.

Specifically, empowering staff and driving. Hah! The pain thing? Bullhockey. I speak from personal observation.

Here's Fanny! · #16 Post by **Here's Fanny!** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:24 pm

Thanks for the examples, AJ! I had to go drop off some packages and was trying to formulate a response explaining that I wasn't being deliberately obtuse, but I just didn't get it.

I'm going to french press some coffee for my 'five cup cup' and then go through your list and think about each one.

andrewjackson · #17 Post by **andrewjackson** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:26 pm

peacock2121 wrote:over 29 millions hits for "men are better than woman".

It's like saying Asians are better at math than Americans.

Interesting.

men are better than woman (without quotes) = 33 million hits

men are better than women (without quotes) = 9 million hits

woman are better than men (withoug quotes) - 9 million hits

women are better than men (without quotes) = 7 million hits

I wonder why "woman" gets so many more hits than "women".

andrewjackson · #18 Post by **andrewjackson** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:27 pm

Here's Fanny! wrote:Thanks for the examples, AJ! I had to go drop off some packages and was trying to formulate a response explaining that I wasn't being deliberately obtuse, but I just didn't get it.

I'm going to french press some coffee for my 'five cup cup' and then go through your list and think about each one.

OK. But that's not really my point.

peacock2121 · #19 Post by **peacock2121** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:29 pm

andrewjackson wrote:
peacock2121 wrote:over 29 millions hits for "men are better than woman".

It's like saying Asians are better at math than Americans.
Interesting.

men are better than woman (without quotes) = 33 million hits

men are better than women (without quotes) = 9 million hits

woman are better than men (withoug quotes) - 9 million hits

women are better than men (without quotes) = 7 million hits

I wonder why "woman" gets so many more hits than "women".

Because of those who are not so good at grammar - or whatever that is that tells you when to use which.

andrewjackson · #20 Post by **andrewjackson** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:32 pm

Beebs52 wrote:
andrewjackson wrote:
Here's Fanny! wrote:
I guess I just can't give a total general answer with any skill, any ability, any ________. So I don't have a reaction because I really don't know what you're talking about.
This is amazing to me. Google: women are better than men

There will be lots of junk stuff but on the first two pages I see:

women better than men at remembering

women cooperate better than men

Women endure pain and monotonous work better than men

men are better than women at solving certain sorts of spatial problems

Women are better drivers than men

Women are better than men at remembering the appearance of others

Women tend to be better than men at empowering staff

Women handle money better than men

Women Lie More, Better Than Men,
AJ-Google is called Google for a reason. It isn't called Truth. Some of these are totally laughable.

Specifically, empowering staff and driving. Hah! The pain thing? Bullhockey. I speak from personal observation.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with any of them. I only posted them to give examples of the kind of statements that people make. Fanny seemed to indicate that she had no idea of what kind of things I was talking about.

I'm not talking about specifics, just the general attitude that people take toward these kinds of statements.

Here's Fanny! · #21 Post by **Here's Fanny!** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:32 pm

andrewjackson wrote:
Here's Fanny! wrote:Thanks for the examples, AJ! I had to go drop off some packages and was trying to formulate a response explaining that I wasn't being deliberately obtuse, but I just didn't get it.

I'm going to french press some coffee for my 'five cup cup' and then go through your list and think about each one.
OK. But that's not really my point.

Okay, I won't then. So my answer is still no, I don't agree with your point. Just from a quick glance through the list, most of those were going to be thrown out with my nature v. nurture stance, anyway.

Here's Fanny! · #22 Post by **Here's Fanny!** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:33 pm

peacock2121 wrote:
andrewjackson wrote:
peacock2121 wrote:over 29 millions hits for "men are better than woman".

It's like saying Asians are better at math than Americans.
Interesting.

men are better than woman (without quotes) = 33 million hits

men are better than women (without quotes) = 9 million hits

woman are better than men (withoug quotes) - 9 million hits

women are better than men (without quotes) = 7 million hits

I wonder why "woman" gets so many more hits than "women".
Because of those who are not so good at grammar - or whatever that is that tells you when to use which.

Maybe it has more because 'men' is only counted once as a part of 'women'.

Beebs52 · #23 Post by **Beebs52** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:34 pm

andrewjackson wrote: I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with any of them. I only posted them to give examples of the kind of statements that people make. Fanny seemed to indicate that she had no idea of what kind of things I was talking about.

I'm not talking about specifics, just the general attitude that people take toward these kinds of statements.

I realize you don't agree or disagree with any of them--just giving my impression of a couple that are just wrong to me.

andrewjackson · #24 Post by **andrewjackson** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:36 pm

Here's Fanny! wrote:
andrewjackson wrote:
Here's Fanny! wrote:Thanks for the examples, AJ! I had to go drop off some packages and was trying to formulate a response explaining that I wasn't being deliberately obtuse, but I just didn't get it.

I'm going to french press some coffee for my 'five cup cup' and then go through your list and think about each one.
OK. But that's not really my point.
Okay, I won't then. So my answer is still no, I don't agree with your point. Just from a quick glance through the list, most of those were going to be thrown out with my nature v. nurture stance, anyway.

OK. My perception of people's attitude toward these kinds of statements could be wrong.

Here's Fanny! · #25 Post by **Here's Fanny!** » Fri Jul 25, 2008 3:36 pm

andrewjackson wrote:
Beebs52 wrote:AJ-Google is called Google for a reason. It isn't called Truth. Some of these are totally laughable.

Specifically, empowering staff and driving. Hah! The pain thing? Bullhockey. I speak from personal observation.
I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with any of them. I only posted them to give examples of the kind of statements that people make. Fanny seemed to indicate that she had no idea of what kind of things I was talking about.

I'm not talking about specifics, just the general attitude that people take toward these kinds of statements.

I didn't think that you agreed or disagreed with them. I truly didn't have any idea of what constituted 'things' and thought you were just giving me examples.

The two that bebe pointed out I think are somewhat true, specifically because of environmental conditioning and traditional gender roles. But not because of any special mental powers that one gender has over the other.