McCain Backer Hagee Said Hitler Was Fulfilling God's Will
- Bob Juch
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McCain Backer Hagee Said Hitler Was Fulfilling God's Will
John Hagee, the controversial evangelical leader and endorser of Sen. John McCain, argued in a late 1990s sermon that the Nazis had operated on God's behalf to chase the Jews from Europe and shepherd them to Palestine. According to the Reverend, Adolph Hitler was a "hunter," sent by God, who was tasked with expediting God's will of having the Jews re-establish a state of Israel.
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I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.
- Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001)
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.
Teach a child to be polite and courteous in the home and, when he grows up, he'll never be able to drive in New Jersey.
- Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001)
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.
Teach a child to be polite and courteous in the home and, when he grows up, he'll never be able to drive in New Jersey.
- tanstaafl2
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OK.
And the point is?
There are nut jobs on both sides of the aisle and everywhere in between mostly depending on ones personal perspective.
If McCain or Clinton or Obama is on record as recognizing one of them as having particular significance to them then perhaps it is of note.
Otherwise I don't see the significance.
And the point is?
There are nut jobs on both sides of the aisle and everywhere in between mostly depending on ones personal perspective.
If McCain or Clinton or Obama is on record as recognizing one of them as having particular significance to them then perhaps it is of note.
Otherwise I don't see the significance.
If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man.
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Some people are like a Slinky. They are not really good for anything, but you still can't help but smile when you shove them down the stairs...
~tanstaafl2
Nullum Gratuitum Prandium
Ne Illegitimi Carborundum
Cumann na gClann Uí Thighearnaigh
~Mark Twain
Some people are like a Slinky. They are not really good for anything, but you still can't help but smile when you shove them down the stairs...
~tanstaafl2
Nullum Gratuitum Prandium
Ne Illegitimi Carborundum
Cumann na gClann Uí Thighearnaigh
- Weyoun
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Explain to me how this is relevant.
McCain, when asked, has rejected Hagee's extreme positions. Hagee, incidentally, is not running for president.
So why is what Hagee says relevant? Before you shout "Wright!", you must realize that there are major differences. Hagee isn't McCain's personal pastor. He's McCain's intellectual and spiritual inspiration.
Basically, each time you bring up Hagee, you really bring up Wright, and if I were an Obama backer, that's something I'd avoid.
McCain, when asked, has rejected Hagee's extreme positions. Hagee, incidentally, is not running for president.
So why is what Hagee says relevant? Before you shout "Wright!", you must realize that there are major differences. Hagee isn't McCain's personal pastor. He's McCain's intellectual and spiritual inspiration.
Basically, each time you bring up Hagee, you really bring up Wright, and if I were an Obama backer, that's something I'd avoid.
- Bob Juch
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Being an intellectual and spiritual inspiration is an even closer relationship than merely a pastor.Weyoun wrote:Explain to me how this is relevant.
McCain, when asked, has rejected Hagee's extreme positions. Hagee, incidentally, is not running for president.
So why is what Hagee says relevant? Before you shout "Wright!", you must realize that there are major differences. Hagee isn't McCain's personal pastor. He's McCain's intellectual and spiritual inspiration.
Basically, each time you bring up Hagee, you really bring up Wright, and if I were an Obama backer, that's something I'd avoid.
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.
- Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001)
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.
Teach a child to be polite and courteous in the home and, when he grows up, he'll never be able to drive in New Jersey.
- Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001)
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.
Teach a child to be polite and courteous in the home and, when he grows up, he'll never be able to drive in New Jersey.
- themanintheseersuckersuit
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“Obviously, I find these remarks and others deeply offensive and indefensible, and I repudiate them. I did not know of them before Reverend Hagee's endorsement, and I feel I must reject his endorsement as well,” McCain said in a statement to CNN Thursday.
He added that his relationship with Hagee did not compare with Obama’s lengthy association with Rev. Jeremiah Wright. “I have said I do not believe Senator Obama shares Reverend Wright's extreme views. But let me also be clear, Reverend Hagee was not and is not my pastor or spiritual advisor, and I did not attend his church for twenty years. I have denounced statements he made immediately upon learning of them, as I do again today,” said McCain.
The Arizona senator had earlier renounced comments from Hagee that termed the Catholic church "the great whore" and "an apostate church."
Update after the jump: Hagee rescinds McCain endorsement
Suitguy is not bitter.
feels he represents the many educated and rational onlookers who believe that the hysterical denouncement of lay scepticism is both unwarranted and counter-productive
The problem, then, is that such calls do not address an opposition audience so much as they signal virtue. They talk past those who need convincing. They ignore actual facts and counterargument. And they are irreparably smug.
feels he represents the many educated and rational onlookers who believe that the hysterical denouncement of lay scepticism is both unwarranted and counter-productive
The problem, then, is that such calls do not address an opposition audience so much as they signal virtue. They talk past those who need convincing. They ignore actual facts and counterargument. And they are irreparably smug.
- hf_jai
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Except that Wright wasn't "merely a pastor." Before the publicity, Obama had called Wright his "spiritual mentor" and the inspiration for his first book (the title of which was taken from one of Wright's sermons).Bob Juch wrote:Being an intellectual and spiritual inspiration is an even closer relationship than merely a pastor.
Personally, I find both of them pretty despicable. And I don't buy either of them saying they didn't know.
- Weyoun
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Unfortunately, I left a "not" out there. Hagee is NO SUCH THING, and pretending otherwise is laughable.Bob Juch wrote:Being an intellectual and spiritual inspiration is an even closer relationship than merely a pastor.Weyoun wrote:Explain to me how this is relevant.
McCain, when asked, has rejected Hagee's extreme positions. Hagee, incidentally, is not running for president.
So why is what Hagee says relevant? Before you shout "Wright!", you must realize that there are major differences. Hagee isn't McCain's personal pastor. He's McCain's intellectual and spiritual inspiration.
Basically, each time you bring up Hagee, you really bring up Wright, and if I were an Obama backer, that's something I'd avoid.
- NellyLunatic1980
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Now that Hagee is out of the picture, the media should now focus on McCain's other crazy spiritual adviser, Rod Parsley, who claims that gay people have a life expectancy of 45 years old.
EDIT: McCain has released a statement saying that he now denounces any statements made by Parsley. I guess we'll wait for the next statement denouncing the next nutbag preacher.
EDIT: McCain has released a statement saying that he now denounces any statements made by Parsley. I guess we'll wait for the next statement denouncing the next nutbag preacher.
- Jeemie
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Um...OK.Bob Juch wrote:Being an intellectual and spiritual inspiration is an even closer relationship than merely a pastor.Weyoun wrote:Explain to me how this is relevant.
McCain, when asked, has rejected Hagee's extreme positions. Hagee, incidentally, is not running for president.
So why is what Hagee says relevant? Before you shout "Wright!", you must realize that there are major differences. Hagee isn't McCain's personal pastor. He's McCain's intellectual and spiritual inspiration.
Basically, each time you bring up Hagee, you really bring up Wright, and if I were an Obama backer, that's something I'd avoid.
If you say so...if "merely" a pastor means being a mentor and the guy that married Obama and baptized his kids.
Last edited by Jeemie on Fri May 23, 2008 5:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
1979 City of Champions 2009
- Jeemie
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At least he's doing it a bit quicker than say...20 years.NellyLunatic1980 wrote:Now that Hagee is out of the picture, the media should now focus on McCain's other crazy spiritual adviser, Rod Parsley, who claims that gay people have a life expectancy of 45 years old.
EDIT: McCain has released a statement saying that he now denounces any statements made by Parsley. I guess we'll wait for the next statement denouncing the next nutbag preacher.
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- Jeemie
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At the risk of sounding "politically incorrect"...the Bible many times talks of God turning evil into good, and using evil world leaders to fulfill His will (although usually it was to chastize Israel).
The Bible never said that the person that was doing God's will MEANT to do it, or that such a person was "approved by God".
The Bible never said that the person that was doing God's will MEANT to do it, or that such a person was "approved by God".
1979 City of Champions 2009
- nitrah55
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An example of this is the Joseph (as in Technicolor Dreamcoat) story.Jeemie wrote:At the risk of sounding "politically incorrect"...the Bible many times talks of God turning evil into good, and using evil world leaders to fulfill His will (although usually it was to chastize Israel).
The Bible never said that the person that was doing God's will MEANT to do it, or that such a person was "approved by God".
What happens if Joseph's brothers don't sell him into slavery? No one predicts the famine, and everybody starves.
One of the things that makes God...well, God...is His ability to take the evil people do and bring good from it. That doesn't make the evil less evil.
It is very early in the morning for reflections on monotheism. I must have some V8.
I am about 25% sure of this.
- silverscreenselect
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You mean like Donnie McClurkin the "cured" gay who says that he will help people get over their homsexuality with the aid of his inspirational teachings. Obama had him performing at a campaign event in South Carolina last fall even after the news about McClurkin's beliefs became public.NellyLunatic1980 wrote:Now that Hagee is out of the picture, the media should now focus on McCain's other crazy spiritual adviser, Rod Parsley, who claims that gay people have a life expectancy of 45 years old.
EDIT: McCain has released a statement saying that he now denounces any statements made by Parsley. I guess we'll wait for the next statement denouncing the next nutbag preacher.
The gays who support Obama are willing to overlook this little gaffe all the while castigating McCain and Hillary for supposed anti-gay statements (when the governor of NC said that compared to Hillary, Rocky was a pansy, they got all upset about Hillary's anti-gay agenda). When will all of these people wake up and realize that Barack Obama does not care for anyone other than Barack Obama. Not for gays, not for blacks, not for the working class, not for progressives.
And there is a tape of Michelle in Rev. Wright's church giving a speech about "whitey" that the Republicans have and are just waiting for the right moment to release, which explains why Obama is anxiously attempting now to remove Michelle from list of valid campaign issues. According to Obama, the only valid campaign issues are (1) all McCain's and Hillary's weaknesses, and (2) just how wonderful hope and change are.
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sss said:
And there is a tape of Michelle in Rev. Wright's church giving a speech about "whitey" that the Republicans have and are just waiting for the right moment to release, which explains why Obama is anxiously attempting now to remove Michelle from list of valid campaign issues.
What's your source for this, Atheist-Breath?
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that he or she has something to do with the Clinton campaign.
And there is a tape of Michelle in Rev. Wright's church giving a speech about "whitey" that the Republicans have and are just waiting for the right moment to release, which explains why Obama is anxiously attempting now to remove Michelle from list of valid campaign issues.
What's your source for this, Atheist-Breath?
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that he or she has something to do with the Clinton campaign.
- BackInTex
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Any believer in an omnipotent God would have to believe Hitler WAS fulfilling His will. How could it not be? It doesn't mean that God commanded Hitler, but it does mean he at least allowed it. If it was not his will he would have stopped it.
Jews, Christians, and Muslims should all believe this.
There could be different rationales for why it was God's will, but the fact that it was his will should not be disputed among the three religions.
Jews, Christians, and Muslims should all believe this.
There could be different rationales for why it was God's will, but the fact that it was his will should not be disputed among the three religions.
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
~~ Thomas Jefferson
War is where the government tells you who the bad guy is.
Revolution is when you decide that for yourself.
-- Benjamin Franklin (maybe)
~~ Thomas Jefferson
War is where the government tells you who the bad guy is.
Revolution is when you decide that for yourself.
-- Benjamin Franklin (maybe)
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If one of these days if someone ties you down and rapes you and cuts your wookus off and leaves you for dead and you're saved because your daughters find you before you've bled to death, I'm sure you'll say to yourself something like"Man, I hate when that happens" or "Sucks for me." But, you'll know at least that God's cool with that.BackInTex wrote:Any believer in an omnipotent God would have to believe Hitler WAS fulfilling His will. How could it not be? It doesn't mean that God commanded Hitler, but it does mean he at least allowed it. If it was not his will he would have stopped it.
Jews, Christians, and Muslims should all believe this.
There could be different rationales for why it was God's will, but the fact that it was his will should not be disputed among the three religions.
I don't have to think like that since I don't fit into any of the three categories that you mentioned (even though I do go to church and what not).
- BackInTex
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That is why I specified the three religions. I have no idea what religion you might be.wbtravis007 wrote: (even though I do go to church and what not).
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
~~ Thomas Jefferson
War is where the government tells you who the bad guy is.
Revolution is when you decide that for yourself.
-- Benjamin Franklin (maybe)
~~ Thomas Jefferson
War is where the government tells you who the bad guy is.
Revolution is when you decide that for yourself.
-- Benjamin Franklin (maybe)
- trevor_macfee
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This can be better sorted out by understanding that "God's will" can refer to several different aspects of God's action. Usually, what we think of as "God's will" is God's intention, but, as Leslie Weatherhead lays out in God's Will (a readable 85-page book available at Amazon for just $5.50) there are three different things we talk about while describing them all as "God's will" - the Intentional Will of God, the Circumstantial Will of God, and the Ultimate Will of God.BackInTex wrote:Any believer in an omnipotent God would have to believe Hitler WAS fulfilling His will. How could it not be? It doesn't mean that God commanded Hitler, but it does mean he at least allowed it. If it was not his will he would have stopped it.
Jews, Christians, and Muslims should all believe this.
There could be different rationales for why it was God's will, but the fact that it was his will should not be disputed among the three religions.
I think Weatherhead would say that what Hitler did was certainly NOT God's intentional will. God's intention - His desire - is that everyone follow Him act in love toward each other. But, sin gets in the way (because God has allowed free will) and therefore God brings good out of the evil that occurs in the world - out of circumstances, therefore God's circumstantial will. Finally, God's Ultimate Will is His omnipotence, that ultimately all creation will be reconciled to Him, every knee will bow, etc.
I'm not doing the book any justice in this short paragraph, but I commend it to anyone who wonders how the Bible can say that it is God's Will that everyone be saved and how at the same time clearly some will not be.
A final example: In the very beginning of the book, Weatherhead talks about an acquaintance who is a doctor whose wife had died. The doctor says, "Well, it was God's will." Weatherhead asks if that means that all the time the doctor was trying to heal his wife, was he fighting against God's will? He goes on to say this doesn't make sense - and so begins an examination of what "God's Will" means.
- mellytu74
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McCain SOUGHT the endorsements of Hagee and Parsley.
There was no long-standing relationship, no history. He wanted their audiences, their supporters, on his side.
I give McCain the benefit of the doubt here. I truly don't think he believes those hateful things.
It took longer than it should have to renounce them.
What I can't figure out is why didn't his campaign vet these guys better before McCain sought their endorsement in the first place?
It's not as if they aren't on TV, aren't visible. That's what I don't understand.
This is a guy who's been around the block a few times. He knows how to campaign. He knows better.
There was no long-standing relationship, no history. He wanted their audiences, their supporters, on his side.
I give McCain the benefit of the doubt here. I truly don't think he believes those hateful things.
It took longer than it should have to renounce them.
What I can't figure out is why didn't his campaign vet these guys better before McCain sought their endorsement in the first place?
It's not as if they aren't on TV, aren't visible. That's what I don't understand.
This is a guy who's been around the block a few times. He knows how to campaign. He knows better.
- BackInTex
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What things are hateful?mellytu74 wrote: I give McCain the benefit of the doubt here. I truly don't think he believes those hateful things.
...quotations from the Texas preacher expressing his belief that the rise of Hitler and the Holocaust were part of God's plan to hasten the creation of Israel. "Obviously, I find these remarks and others deeply offensive and indefensible, and I repudiate them. ", McCain said.
O.K. So McCain either does not believe in God, or he believes Hitler was more powerful than God.
Now THAT, I find offensive.
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
~~ Thomas Jefferson
War is where the government tells you who the bad guy is.
Revolution is when you decide that for yourself.
-- Benjamin Franklin (maybe)
~~ Thomas Jefferson
War is where the government tells you who the bad guy is.
Revolution is when you decide that for yourself.
-- Benjamin Franklin (maybe)
- BackInTex
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I can see where that might be insulting, maddening, and perhaps hateful towards the Catholic Church leadership, but it is not hateful to the Catholic faithful. But I can see how you might. I'm sure if someone, say WBT might attack my faith, I might see that as hateful, too.mellytu74 wrote:BiT --
I am a Catholic.
I do not believe my church is The Great Whore.
Pastor Hagee does.
I find that hateful.
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
~~ Thomas Jefferson
War is where the government tells you who the bad guy is.
Revolution is when you decide that for yourself.
-- Benjamin Franklin (maybe)
~~ Thomas Jefferson
War is where the government tells you who the bad guy is.
Revolution is when you decide that for yourself.
-- Benjamin Franklin (maybe)
- mellytu74
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- Location: Philadelphia, PA
Yes, I can, BiT.BackInTex wrote:I can see where that might be insulting, maddening, and perhaps hateful towards the Catholic Church leadership, but it is not hateful to the Catholic faithful. But I can see how you might. I'm sure if someone, say WBT might attack my faith, I might see that as hateful, too.mellytu74 wrote:BiT --
I am a Catholic.
I do not believe my church is The Great Whore.
Pastor Hagee does.
I find that hateful.
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I was a good Methodist boy growing up -- (went to the church that Bix goes to now) -- and now go to a Lutheran church. I normally keep my real views to myself on this.BackInTex wrote:That is why I specified the three religions. I have no idea what religion you might be.wbtravis007 wrote: (even though I do go to church and what not).
After a lot of searching and thinking everything through, I came to the conclusion that it made more sense to just get back to the basics -- Zeus and them. I guess it's really too late now to do much about the havoc created by those who lost their faith and came up with all this other stuff, but still.