Chinese balloon

[jarnon]

Biden said today that he gave the order to shoot down the balloon on Wednesday, and the military opted to wait until it was over water. Their stated reason was to avoid endangering the public.

BTW, we have excellent capabilities to retrieve objects on land and sea. The salvage operations portrayed in both Ice Station Zebra and The Hunt for Red October are based on actual incidents.

[jarnon]

To #1. A question I have always wondered-seriously
If satellites are so great and cover everything-explain how come they could never tell us what happened to Malaysian Air 370?

Spock, when you're in the bush, you can explore a wide area or focus on a particular spot with a closeup lens. If you're doing the latter, you may miss a fleeting event in a place where you're not looking.

[silverscreenselect]

#1-SSS>>>"You do realize they've had spy satellites in place for years (as do we) with much more equipment onboard than the balloon did.">>>

#2-Also SSS-later>>>"I don't know much about the spy capability of various platforms But our military is going to know a lot more after they fish the remains of the balloon out of the ocean than if it had crashed on top of T-Girl's bathroom."<<<

OK-are you the same person
#1-presents as a well-qualified expert in remote sensing and spying technology.

#2-Presents as "Gee, gosh golly-IDK much-but the experts will handle it" and throws in a gratuitous slap at T-Girl.

#1 is a person who happens to read. #2 is a person who happens to read and acknowledges that the government is going to be able to fish a lot of that equipment out of the water and get some first-hand knowledge of the Chinese technology involved that we don't currently have. The "gratuitous slap" at T-Girl was an observation that shooting the balloon down over land, even in Montana, might have resulted in debris landing on occupied areas.

You really have to strain to misread everything I post as badly as you do.

[silverscreenselect]

From the official DoD press release:

The balloon traversed Alaska, Canada and re-entered U.S. airspace over Idaho. "President Biden asked the military to present options and on Wednesday President Biden gave his authorization to take down the Chinese surveillance balloon as soon as the mission could be accomplished without undue risk to us civilians under the balloon's path," said a senior defense official speaking on background. "Military commanders determined that there was undue risk of debris causing harm to civilians while the balloon was overland." An F-22 Raptor fighter from the 1st Fighter Wing at Langley Air Force Base, Virginia, fired one AIM-9X Sidewinder missile at the balloon. The balloon fell approximately six miles off the coast in about 47 feet of water. No one was hurt.

Long before the shoot down, U.S. officials took steps to protect against the balloon's collection of sensitive information, mitigating its intelligence value to the Chinese. The senior defense official said the recovery of the balloon will enable U.S. analysts to examine sensitive Chinese equipment. "I would also note that while we took all necessary steps to protect against the PRC surveillance balloon's collection of sensitive information, the surveillance balloon's overflight of U.S. territory was of intelligence value to us," the official said. "I can't go into more detail, but we were able to study and scrutinize the balloon and its equipment, which has been valuable."

The balloon did not pose a military or physical threat. Still its intrusion into American airspace over several days was an unacceptable violation of U.S. sovereignty. The official said Chinese balloons briefly transited the continental United States at least three times during the prior administration.

https://www.defense.gov/News/News-Stori ... ina-coast/

So, it happened at least three times before under Trump's watch. You might argue that the Chinese were emboldened by our lack of earlier response into trying a lengthier surveillance this time.

[Weyoun]

For some reason, I think the fact it happened three times during the Trump administration will be completely ignored by the complainers here.

One thing I’ve noticed about the Spock crowd, is how they really want America to lose. Because they dislike Biden and Democrats, they want the country to be constantly embarrassed.

I know upfront they’re wrong because they’re being so emotional. When you are being so emotional about something, it usually suggests you’re not thinking clearly, and here we are.

I’ve seen numerous people of this ik post means making fun of the American military. Americans! People who say they support this country, making fun of our army because they won’t shoot down a balloon. Clearly the army can shoot it down though. And they just did.

They’ve given their reasons, but they also don’t trust them, because they also find our government to be hopelessly political, and hopelessly compromised.

To me, it’s a strange way to live. It’s important to democracy to question your government, but to think it’s constantly out to get you, or out to serve a handful of leaders, seems just un-American.

[jarnon]

Biden said today that he gave the order to shoot down the balloon on Wednesday, and the military opted to wait until it was over water. Their stated reason was to avoid endangering the public.

The senior defense official said the recovery of the balloon will enable U.S. analysts to examine sensitive Chinese equipment. "I would also note that while we took all necessary steps to protect against the PRC surveillance balloon's collection of sensitive information, the surveillance balloon's overflight of U.S. territory was of intelligence value to us," the official said. "I can't go into more detail, but we were able to study and scrutinize the balloon and its equipment, which has been valuable.

That's what I was thinking when I speculated that they had another reason to wait till Saturday.

[jarnon]

One thing I’ve noticed about the Spock crowd, is how they really want America to lose. Because they dislike Biden and Democrats, they want the country to be constantly embarrassed.

I know upfront they’re wrong because they’re being so emotional. When you are being so emotional about something, it usually suggests you’re not thinking clearly, and here we are.

I’ve seen numerous people of this ilk post memes making fun of the American military. Americans! People who say they support this country, making fun of our army because they won’t shoot down a balloon. Clearly the army can shoot it down though. And they just did.

They’ve given their reasons, but they also don’t trust them, because they also find our government to be hopelessly political, and hopelessly compromised.

To me, it’s a strange way to live. It’s important to democracy to question your government, but to think it’s constantly out to get you, or out to serve a handful of leaders, seems just un-American.

My friends on the left did it too, during the Trump administration. But they've always had low regard for the military and law enforcement. It's screwy when right-wingers express that attitude.

[Weyoun]

One thing I’ve noticed about the Spock crowd, is how they really want America to lose. Because they dislike Biden and Democrats, they want the country to be constantly embarrassed.

I know upfront they’re wrong because they’re being so emotional. When you are being so emotional about something, it usually suggests you’re not thinking clearly, and here we are.

I’ve seen numerous people of this ilk post memes making fun of the American military. Americans! People who say they support this country, making fun of our army because they won’t shoot down a balloon. Clearly the army can shoot it down though. And they just did.

They’ve given their reasons, but they also don’t trust them, because they also find our government to be hopelessly political, and hopelessly compromised.

To me, it’s a strange way to live. It’s important to democracy to question your government, but to think it’s constantly out to get you, or out to serve a handful of leaders, seems just un-American.

My friends on the left did it too, during the Trump administration. But they've always had low regard for the military and law enforcement. It's screwy when right-wingers express that attitude.

That’s a very fair point. I remember, for example, wondering, when Trump made that “shit hole country” comment, why someone would release that. It wasn’t a public meeting. Doing so only made us look bad. It would not change the mind of anybody who disliked the guy or like the guy, but it did mean we had to explain to a bunch of countries why this was said. And many of these countries are being constantly courted by China, so it’s important to stay on their good side

[BackInTex]

Mark Esper is saying he was never notified about any previous balloons.

[Weyoun]

Mark Esper is saying he was never notified about any previous balloons.

Oh now you believe Esper

[tlynn78]

Mark Esper is saying he was never notified about any previous balloons.

Oh now you believe Esper

That's ..not what BiT said

[Vandal]

[Beebs52]

[Vandal]

[Beebs52]

Can we all agree to say fuck you China in re "civilian balloon" and violation etc?

[BackInTex]

Mark Esper is saying he was never notified about any previous balloons.

Oh now you believe Esper

That's ..not what BiT said

Other sources, even in the Biden admin, are saying that that intellegence reports discoverd, after the Trump years, that satallites may have passed over US airspance. So there.

[silverscreenselect]

The U.S. has launched its own spy balloon over China in retaliation:

[a1mamacat]

SNORT!!

[Bob78164]

Oh now you believe Esper

That's ..not what BiT said

Other sources, even in the Biden admin, are saying that that intellegence reports discoverd, after the Trump years, that satallites may have passed over US airspance. So there.

Not satellites. That happens all the time. Given the laws of orbital mechanics, there's really nothing we can do about that short of shooting them all down, which I doubt we're capable of doing, and which we almost certainly shouldn't do even if we could.

No, what President Biden's Administration discovered is that Chinese balloons encroached U.S. airspace at least three times during Donny's Administration and Donny didn't even know that. President Biden's Administration, in contrast, detected the incursion in real time and made a reasoned decision about how to handle it without unnecessarily risking the lives of American civilians. So spare us your bullshit about how handling this fourth incursion over U.S. airspace somehow shows that President Biden is a Chinese agent. --Bob

[BackInTex]

That's ..not what BiT said

Other sources, even in the Biden admin, are saying that that intellegence reports discoverd, after the Trump years, that satallites may have passed over US airspance. So there.

Not satellites. That happens all the time. Given the laws of orbital mechanics, there's really nothing we can do about that short of shooting them all down, which I doubt we're capable of doing, and which we almost certainly shouldn't do even if we could.

No, what President Biden's Administration discovered is that Chinese balloons encroached U.S. airspace at least three times during Donny's Administration and Donny didn't even know that. President Biden's Administration, in contrast, detected the incursion in real time and made a reasoned decision about how to handle it without unnecessarily risking the lives of American civilians. So spare us your bullshit about how handling this fourth incursion over U.S. airspace somehow shows that President Biden is a Chinese agent. --Bob

You're such a tool for the current administration. There was a flyover during the early part of Biden's admin that went undetected as well. This one though was visible to the naked eye so was not a stealth, probably due to size.


Chinese spy balloons over US during Trump admin 'discovered after' he left office: senior Biden official

But on Sunday, a senior administration official told Fox News Digital that "U.S. intelligence, not the Biden administration" assesses that "PRC (People's Republic of China) government surveillance balloons transited the continental U.S. briefly at least three times during the prior administration and once that we know of at the beginning of this administration, but never for this duration of time."

Yeah, it's Fox News, because your sources are carrying the full story, just like you don't, because it hurts your narrative.

[silverscreenselect]

Pentagon says it had ‘an awareness gap’ that led to failure to detect 3 Chinese balloons under Trump

The American military had a “domain awareness gap” that allowed three other suspected Chinese spy balloons to transit the continental United States undetected under the Trump administration, the Pentagon general responsible for providing air and missile defense over North America said on Monday. “Every day as a NORAD commander, it’s my responsibility to detect threats to North America. I will tell you that we did not detect those threats,” Gen. Glen VanHerck, commander of US Northern Command and North American Aerospace Defense Command said when asked about the three other balloons. “And that’s a domain awareness gap that we have to figure out, but I don’t want to go into further detail.”

National Security Council strategic communications coordinator John Kirby told reporters that there are several factors – like their altitude and speed – that make detecting the spy balloons difficult, saying that the ways to track them are “not constant.” “They fly very, very high, very, very slow and in order to track, you’ve got to run the traps along many different lines of information and technology,” Kirby said. “Their dynamics, their trajectory, their flight behavior complicates the ability to know exactly where one is at any particular moment in time depending on where it is over the Earth’s surface.”

Adding to officials’ comments last week about the balloon that was shot down on Saturday’s ability to maneuver, Kirby said on Monday that the balloon had “propellers” and “a rudder … to allow it to change direction.” But that maneuverability was limited, he said, mostly restricted to “inside the jet stream.” As far as size, the balloon was 200 feet tall, with a payload the size of a regional jet weighing over a couple thousand pounds, VanHerck said, which fed into concerns of what would happen if it was shot down. “[Y]ou know from a safety standpoint, picture yourself with large debris weighing hundreds if not thousands of pounds falling out of the sky. That’s really what we’re kind of talking about,” he said. “So glass off of solar panels, potentially hazardous material, such as material that is required for a batteries to operate in such an environment as this and even the potential for explosives to detonate and destroy the balloon that could have been present.”

Since the military operation on Saturday by F-22 fighter jets out of Langley Air Force Base in Virginia to take the balloon down, pieces of the balloon have since started arriving at the FBI’s lab at Quantico, Virginia. And though there has been criticism that the balloon was allowed to linger for too long over the US, VanHerck said on Monday that he and the commander of US Strategic Command worked “in close coordination” and “took maximum precaution” to prevent Chinese intelligence collection. The balloon was detected early enough to allow the US to gather intelligence on it while it transited the US before it was shot down, VanHerck said. “There was a potential opportunity for us to collect intel where we had gaps on prior balloons,” he said. “And so I would defer to the intel community. But this gave us the opportunity to assess what they were actually doing, what kind of capabilities existed on the balloon, what kind of transmission capabilities existed, and I think you’ll see in the future that that time frame was well worth its value to collect over.”

Based on this, it would appear that the military didn't know about the Trump flyovers at the time they occurred but that their detection capabilities have improved since then. More likely, they had information that revealed balloons were there but didn't appreciate its significance. And they really do want whatever technology was on the balloon is now on its way to FBI Headquarters.

[Bob78164]

Pentagon says it had ‘an awareness gap’ that led to failure to detect 3 Chinese balloons under Trump

The American military had a “domain awareness gap” that allowed three other suspected Chinese spy balloons to transit the continental United States undetected under the Trump administration, the Pentagon general responsible for providing air and missile defense over North America said on Monday. “Every day as a NORAD commander, it’s my responsibility to detect threats to North America. I will tell you that we did not detect those threats,” Gen. Glen VanHerck, commander of US Northern Command and North American Aerospace Defense Command said when asked about the three other balloons. “And that’s a domain awareness gap that we have to figure out, but I don’t want to go into further detail.”

National Security Council strategic communications coordinator John Kirby told reporters that there are several factors – like their altitude and speed – that make detecting the spy balloons difficult, saying that the ways to track them are “not constant.” “They fly very, very high, very, very slow and in order to track, you’ve got to run the traps along many different lines of information and technology,” Kirby said. “Their dynamics, their trajectory, their flight behavior complicates the ability to know exactly where one is at any particular moment in time depending on where it is over the Earth’s surface.”

Adding to officials’ comments last week about the balloon that was shot down on Saturday’s ability to maneuver, Kirby said on Monday that the balloon had “propellers” and “a rudder … to allow it to change direction.” But that maneuverability was limited, he said, mostly restricted to “inside the jet stream.” As far as size, the balloon was 200 feet tall, with a payload the size of a regional jet weighing over a couple thousand pounds, VanHerck said, which fed into concerns of what would happen if it was shot down. “[Y]ou know from a safety standpoint, picture yourself with large debris weighing hundreds if not thousands of pounds falling out of the sky. That’s really what we’re kind of talking about,” he said. “So glass off of solar panels, potentially hazardous material, such as material that is required for a batteries to operate in such an environment as this and even the potential for explosives to detonate and destroy the balloon that could have been present.”

Since the military operation on Saturday by F-22 fighter jets out of Langley Air Force Base in Virginia to take the balloon down, pieces of the balloon have since started arriving at the FBI’s lab at Quantico, Virginia. And though there has been criticism that the balloon was allowed to linger for too long over the US, VanHerck said on Monday that he and the commander of US Strategic Command worked “in close coordination” and “took maximum precaution” to prevent Chinese intelligence collection. The balloon was detected early enough to allow the US to gather intelligence on it while it transited the US before it was shot down, VanHerck said. “There was a potential opportunity for us to collect intel where we had gaps on prior balloons,” he said. “And so I would defer to the intel community. But this gave us the opportunity to assess what they were actually doing, what kind of capabilities existed on the balloon, what kind of transmission capabilities existed, and I think you’ll see in the future that that time frame was well worth its value to collect over.”

Based on this, it would appear that the military didn't know about the Trump flyovers at the time they occurred but that their detection capabilities have improved since then. More likely, they had information that revealed balloons were there but didn't appreciate its significance. And they really do want whatever technology was on the balloon is now on its way to FBI Headquarters.

Here's a little additional information. The overflights were identified during Donny's Administration as "unidentified aerial phenomena." They happened more than three times, but at least three occasions occurred near sensitive military installations.

And the Biden Administration has been briefing Congress about the Chinese surveillance program since August. --Bob

[BackInTex]

Here's a little additional information. The overflights were identified during Donny's Administration as "unidentified aerial phenomena." They happened more than three times, but at least three occasions occurred near sensitive military installations.

And the Biden Administration has been briefing Congress about the Chinese surveillance program since August. --Bob

Bobbie, you've left out some pertinent information that just migh give someone the full picture. Why would you do that? Doesn't seem truthful.

The aircraft spotted during Trump’s tenure were smaller in size and only detected briefly in US airspace. They were first categorized as “unidentified aerial phenomena” by intelligence officials, only to later be identified as balloons. The assessments indicated they came from China, but were not definitive.

It was only after the balloon program continued during President Joe Biden’s administration, allowing the intelligence community to gather more intelligence, that the US determined definitively that some of the devices were Chinese military assets. The White House – which declined to comment on new details about balloons observed during the Trump Administration - began briefing Congress last August on the Chinese surveillance balloon program.

[silverscreenselect]

As the new year got underway in China, hopes appeared to be running high that an easing of tensions with the United States could unfold in the months ahead. China’s Foreign Ministry expressed as much late last month when it said China would “welcome” a visit from US Secretary of State Antony Blinken – an expected visit that analysts say Beijing viewed as an opportunity to help strengthen its economy and repair fraught diplomatic ties. So when a high-altitude balloon from China carrying a payload the size of three coach buses equipped with what American officials have described as surveillance equipment was spotted over the continental US, visibly hovering above a state with key military assets and ultimately sparking an international incident – it naturally raised critical questions about just what had happened, and why.

China maintains the vessel, which was shot down by the US over the Atlantic Ocean on Saturday, was a weather balloon thrown off course. And it has shown signs of both being caught off guard by the incident and wanting to stem the potential damage, analysts say, not only framing the situation as the result of factors beyond its control, but also offering a rare expression of “regret” over it in a statement Friday.

hile some crucial facts of the situation remain unclear, Beijing’s official response – and the timing of the incident, which resulted in the US’ postponement of the Blinken visit – suggest its leadership is now grappling with how to handle a diplomatic crisis that has inflamed the very tensions it had been hoping to mend.
“By all accounts, the Chinese leadership was looking forward to having direct talks with Blinken … it would be very plausible that (Chinese leader Xi Jinping) would want to make sure everything was smooth in the lead up to the visit,” said Chong Ja Ian, an associate professor of political science at the National University of Singapore. “That this would happen is perplexing and strange,” he said.

Observers of elite Chinese politics say the timing of the less-than-subtle intrusion, amid a concerted Chinese effort to re-engage with the world and tone down its own combative rhetoric, suggests explanations ranging from a serious miscalculation by Beijing to a costly lack of communication within the government or with another entity. Steve Tsang, director of the SOAS China Institute at the University of London, said any surveillance operation involving US airspace would “almost certainly” have to get approval from top leadership, including Xi. That suggests, according to Tsang, there was either a “total miscalculation” in which the Chinese leader and his advisers thought the US would not respond robustly to the balloon, or the top leaders failed to “join the dots” between various activities to realize dispatching a balloon would have the potential to impact the Blinken visit.

While the backstory remains unclear as Chinese authorities have yet to – and may not – provide additional information, the result of the incident is a major blow for US-China diplomacy – and Beijing, experts say. “I think the Chinese leadership at the national level clearly felt upset and upstaged by this balloon,” said Dali Yang, a political scientist at the University of Chicago, noting the Chinese Foreign Ministry’s initial explanation was “unusually conciliatory” with its rare expression of “regret,” especially compared with its often aggressive rhetoric of recent years. “They were clearly hoping that this somehow could be smoothed out, especially given the context of Secretary Blinken’s planned visit at that point,” Yang said.

Beijing’s rhetoric hardened significantly after the US military shot down the balloon, with China’s Foreign Ministry accusing the US of “overreacting” and “seriously violating international practice.” The Defense Ministry, meanwhile, expressed “solemn protest,” warning China “reserves the right to use necessary means to deal with similar situations.” On Monday, China’s Foreign Ministry said the debris of the balloon does not belong to the US. “The airship is China’s, not the US’,” a spokesperson for the ministry said at a regular news conference, when asked about whether the US should return the remnants of the balloon to China.

“This is a delicate matter that played out in a highly public way between the two countries. Therefore, there is posturing,” Yang added. “For the Chinese leadership, they have a domestic audience they need to cater to too,” he said, citing the need for Beijing not to appear weak. Nevertheless, China has shown signs of trying to keep a lid on nationalist rhetoric around the incident, instead of fanning outrage – as Beijing previously did during events that stoked US-China tensions, such as then-House Speaker Nancy Pelosi’s visit to Taiwan last summer.

https://www.cnn.com/2023/02/06/china/ch ... index.html

So the Chinese view this as a major screwup on their part that cost them valuable technology and lots of diplomatic capital at a time they desperately want to repair relations with the U.S. Yet instead of viewing this as a win, the Republicans want to portray this as a massive Biden failure.

[silverscreenselect]

Initial classified balloon report wasn’t flagged as urgent, drawing criticism

A day before the suspected Chinese spy balloon entered US airspace over Alaska, the Defense Intelligence Agency quietly sent an internal report that a foreign object was headed towards US territory, military and intelligence officials familiar with the matter told CNN. The report – also known as a “tipper” – was disseminated through classified channels accessible across the US government. But it wasn’t flagged as an urgent warning and top defense and intelligence officials who saw it weren’t immediately alarmed by it, according to sources. Instead of treating it as an immediate threat, the US moved to investigate the object, seeing it as an opportunity to observe and collect intelligence.

It wasn’t until the balloon entered Alaskan airspace, on January 28, and then took a sharp turn south that officials came to believe it was on a course to cross over the continental US – and that its mission might be to spy on the US mainland. Officials familiar with the original DIA report conceded that they didn’t see the balloon as an urgent threat until it was already over US territory –  even as fresh revelations have emerged about what the US knew about Chinese spy balloons.

During a closed door briefing on Tuesday, Senate staff repeatedly pressed military officials about who knew what – and when. On Wednesday, Marco Rubio and Sen. Roger Wicker, the top Republican on the Senate Armed Services Committee, sent a letter to President Joe Biden’s top defense and intelligence officials raising questions about the administration’s decision-making after the balloon crossed into Alaskan airspace.

CNN reported on Tuesday that US officials tracking the balloon’s trajectory recognized it as part of a known aerial surveillance operation run by the Chinese military that officials say has flown dozens of missions world-wide, including half a dozen near or within US airspace. A military intelligence report from April of 2022, exclusively reported by CNN, revealed that the US had tracked previous flights by similar balloons.

It was only when the balloon turned south that it “got strange,” a senior US official told CNN. “We immediately started talking about shooting it down, then.” On January 28, when the balloon entered US airspace near Alaska, the North American Aerospace Defense Command, or NORAD, sent up fighter jets to make a positive identification, according to defense officials, reflecting a subtle shift in urgency.

Still, officials tracking the balloon saw little reason to be alarmed. At the time, according to US officials, this balloon was expected to sail over Alaska and continue on a northern trajectory that intelligence and military officials could track and study. Instead, shortly after the balloon crossed over land, it alarmed officials by making its unexpected turn south.

On January 31, the balloon had crossed out of Canada and into the Lower 48. And concerns that the balloon had been sent by Beijing explicitly to spy on the mainland US were confirmed when NORAD observed the balloon “loitering” over sensitive military facilities, multiple sources familiar with the intelligence told CNN. How much control China exerted over the balloon’s path remains a matter of debate. Although the balloon was equipped with propellers and a rudder that allowed it to turn “like a sailboat,” according to the senior US official, it largely rode the jet stream – one of the reasons US officials were able to predict its path across the US in advance.

Senior administration officials appear not to have been made aware of the balloon until on or near January 28, when it crossed into Alaskan airspace, including America’s top-ranking general, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Mark Milley. Biden, according to senior administration officials, was not briefed until three days later, on January 31, when the balloon crossed out of Canada and into the continental United States. At that point, Biden asked the military to present options “immediately” to shoot the balloon down, officials said.

Military and intelligence officials who spoke to CNN said that it wasn’t known that the balloon was going to dip south into the Lower 48 until the balloon was already over Alaska. Before that, officials didn’t believe that it posed any real risk to the US, and in fact, presented more of an intelligence-gathering opportunity.
“The domain awareness was there as it approached Alaska,” NORAD commander Gen. Glen VanHerck told reporters on Monday. “It was my assessment that this balloon did not present a physical military threat to North America… And therefore, I could not take immediate action because it was not demonstrating hostile act or hostile intent.” Once it was over US territory, officials have argued that the benefits of gathering additional intelligence on the balloon as it passed over far outweighed the risk of shooting it down over land.

Key takeaways here are that the military knew about the balloon when it first reached Alaska but that the notices they sent out weren't flagged as urgent. The military was well aware of other Chinese balloon surveillance in the past, but none this extensive. They also didn't view that the balloon presented a serious risk. Further, Biden wasn't made aware of the balloon until the day he ordered it shot down.