TOC Day 3 Final J
- BackInTex
- Posts: 13535
- Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:43 pm
- Location: In Texas of course!
TOC Day 3 Final J
Incorrect question to a poorly worded answer. They are wrong and I’m interested to see what the fallout might be.
Sam got it right and was counted wrong. Score should be 1 game for each.
Sam got it right and was counted wrong. Score should be 1 game for each.
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
~~ Thomas Jefferson
War is where the government tells you who the bad guy is.
Revolution is when you decide that for yourself.
-- Benjamin Franklin (maybe)
~~ Thomas Jefferson
War is where the government tells you who the bad guy is.
Revolution is when you decide that for yourself.
-- Benjamin Franklin (maybe)
- earendel
- Posts: 13869
- Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:25 am
- Location: mired in the bureaucracy
Re: TOC Day 3 Final J
I'm surprised that you didn't hear me scream at my TV set when this answer was revealed. As soon as I saw the clue, I knew what the answer was going to be, even though it wasn't correct.
"Elen sila lumenn omentielvo...A star shines on the hour of our meeting."
- tlynn78
- Posts: 9404
- Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:31 am
- Location: Montana
Re: TOC Day 3 Final J
Yup, Sam was robbed.
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. -Thomas Paine
You can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality. -Ayn Rand
Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
You can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality. -Ayn Rand
Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
- mellytu74
- Posts: 9632
- Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:02 pm
- Location: Philadelphia, PA
Re: TOC Day 3 Final J
Our feelings exactly. My cousin and I (both non-winners on Jeopardy) were messaging each other back and forth.
BiT posits a good question - we are interested in what the fallout might be as well. Or if there is any.
- Bob78164
- Bored Moderator
- Posts: 22040
- Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:02 pm
- Location: By the phone
Re: TOC Day 3 Final J
Here's the precise language of the clue: "Paul’s letter to them is the New Testament epistle with the most Old Testament quotations."
Is there any disagreement that Hebrews is a New Testament epistle and that it has more Old Testament quotations than any other New Testament epistle? If it wasn't in fact written by Paul, then doesn't that mean that there is no fully correct response? In that case, I think they fall back to the "most correct" response, and it's at least defensible to say that Hebrews is correct. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson
- Weyoun
- Posts: 3163
- Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:36 pm
Re: TOC Day 3 Final J
But if there’s no correct response, there’s no correct response. Someone is very unlikely to know which epistle has the most Old Testament quotations. Someone might be able to deduce Hebrews because of Final Jeopardy uses that type of lateral thinking often, and such thinking would point to Hebrews.Bob78164 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:36 pmHere's the precise language of the clue: "Paul’s letter to them is the New Testament epistle with the most Old Testament quotations."
Is there any disagreement that Hebrews is a New Testament epistle and that it has more Old Testament quotations than any other New Testament epistle? If it wasn't in fact written by Paul, then doesn't that mean that there is no fully correct response? In that case, I think they fall back to the "most correct" response, and it's at least defensible to say that Hebrews is correct. --Bob
On the other hand, if they know that Paul is typically not considered to be the author of that book, they immediately eliminate that answer and head for something else.
I was able to figure out both what they wanted but that also it was not correct.
Your approach would punish somebody for actually knowing something about the subject, and that seems unfair
The episode should be struck.
- BackInTex
- Posts: 13535
- Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:43 pm
- Location: In Texas of course!
Re: TOC Day 3 Final J
What is the first word in the "answer"? It is "Paul's". Then followed by "letter to them". If he didn't write Hebrews the question can't be Hebrews. If he didn't write Hebrews the fully correct response is Romans.Bob78164 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:36 pmHere's the precise language of the clue: "Paul’s letter to them is the New Testament epistle with the most Old Testament quotations."
Is there any disagreement that Hebrews is a New Testament epistle and that it has more Old Testament quotations than any other New Testament epistle? If it wasn't in fact written by Paul, then doesn't that mean that there is no fully correct response? In that case, I think they fall back to the "most correct" response, and it's at least defensible to say that Hebrews is correct. --Bob
Most studied Christians do not believe he wrote it. Had the answer been "The Epsitle to them..." then no doubt Hebrews is the correct response. Sam is probably somewhat knowledgeable about the Bible and gave the correct response with the knowlege that Paul did not write Hebrews.
There is no "most correct"reponse.
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
~~ Thomas Jefferson
War is where the government tells you who the bad guy is.
Revolution is when you decide that for yourself.
-- Benjamin Franklin (maybe)
~~ Thomas Jefferson
War is where the government tells you who the bad guy is.
Revolution is when you decide that for yourself.
-- Benjamin Franklin (maybe)
- BackInTex
- Posts: 13535
- Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:43 pm
- Location: In Texas of course!
Re: TOC Day 3 Final J
Not hardly. Lots of folks actually study the Bible and know each book very well. My wife and myself included. Ear probably knew, too.
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
~~ Thomas Jefferson
War is where the government tells you who the bad guy is.
Revolution is when you decide that for yourself.
-- Benjamin Franklin (maybe)
~~ Thomas Jefferson
War is where the government tells you who the bad guy is.
Revolution is when you decide that for yourself.
-- Benjamin Franklin (maybe)
- Bob78164
- Bored Moderator
- Posts: 22040
- Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:02 pm
- Location: By the phone
Re: TOC Day 3 Final J
If Hebrews is an epistle that has more Old Testament quotations than does Romans, then Romans isn't a correct response because it's not the New Testament epistle with the most Old Testament quotations. That means there's no response that fits the entire clue. The argument would be that there is only one epistle (Hebrews) with the most Old Testament quotations, and there is at least some belief that it was written by Paul, so it's the "most correct" response.BackInTex wrote: ↑Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:47 pmWhat is the first word in the "answer"? It is "Paul's". Then followed by "letter to them". If he didn't write Hebrews the question can't be Hebrews. If he didn't write Hebrews the fully correct response is Romans.Bob78164 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:36 pmHere's the precise language of the clue: "Paul’s letter to them is the New Testament epistle with the most Old Testament quotations."
Is there any disagreement that Hebrews is a New Testament epistle and that it has more Old Testament quotations than any other New Testament epistle? If it wasn't in fact written by Paul, then doesn't that mean that there is no fully correct response? In that case, I think they fall back to the "most correct" response, and it's at least defensible to say that Hebrews is correct. --Bob
Most studied Christians do not believe he wrote it. Had the answer been "The Epsitle to them..." then no doubt Hebrews is the correct response. Sam is probably somewhat knowledgeable about the Bible and gave the correct response with the knowlege that Paul did not write Hebrews.
There is no "most correct"reponse.
And there's a reason I put scare quotes around "most correct" response. I'm aware that it's somewhat nonsensical. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson
- Weyoun
- Posts: 3163
- Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:36 pm
Re: TOC Day 3 Final J
That’s a subset of people you know. I know such people also. Go back over the list of Jeopardy contestants of the last year and look at their demographics. Most of them are not knowing that.
- Weyoun
- Posts: 3163
- Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:36 pm
Re: TOC Day 3 Final J
But that’s the other thing. There’s actually a reasonable debate by informed people on the Jeopardy board who are stating that Romans actually has more such quotations than Hebrews.Bob78164 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:57 pmIf Hebrews is an epistle that has more Old Testament quotations than does Romans, then Romans isn't a correct response because it's not the New Testament epistle with the most Old Testament quotations. That means there's no response that fits the entire clue. The argument would be that there is only one epistle (Hebrews) with the most Old Testament quotations, and there is at least some belief that it was written by Paul, so it's the "most correct" response.BackInTex wrote: ↑Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:47 pmWhat is the first word in the "answer"? It is "Paul's". Then followed by "letter to them". If he didn't write Hebrews the question can't be Hebrews. If he didn't write Hebrews the fully correct response is Romans.Bob78164 wrote: ↑Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:36 pmHere's the precise language of the clue: "Paul’s letter to them is the New Testament epistle with the most Old Testament quotations."
Is there any disagreement that Hebrews is a New Testament epistle and that it has more Old Testament quotations than any other New Testament epistle? If it wasn't in fact written by Paul, then doesn't that mean that there is no fully correct response? In that case, I think they fall back to the "most correct" response, and it's at least defensible to say that Hebrews is correct. --Bob
Most studied Christians do not believe he wrote it. Had the answer been "The Epsitle to them..." then no doubt Hebrews is the correct response. Sam is probably somewhat knowledgeable about the Bible and gave the correct response with the knowlege that Paul did not write Hebrews.
There is no "most correct"reponse.
And there's a reason I put scare quotes around "most correct" response. I'm aware that it's somewhat nonsensical. --Bob
And some are adding that it’s really incorrect to call Hebrews an epistle based on its structure.
So it’s a flawed question on multiple levels.
- earendel
- Posts: 13869
- Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:25 am
- Location: mired in the bureaucracy
Re: TOC Day 3 Final J
Exactly so. Paul didn't write it, it isn't an epistle, and the number of quotations from the Hebrew Scriptures is debated - are they quotes or allusions?Weyoun wrote: ↑Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:18 pmBut that’s the other thing. There’s actually a reasonable debate by informed people on the Jeopardy board who are stating that Romans actually has more such quotations than Hebrews.
And some are adding that it’s really incorrect to call Hebrews an epistle based on its structure.
So it’s a flawed question on multiple levels.
"Elen sila lumenn omentielvo...A star shines on the hour of our meeting."
- BackInTex
- Posts: 13535
- Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:43 pm
- Location: In Texas of course!
Re: TOC Day 3 Final J
In the end
Spoiler
it cost Sam $50,000 as he should have taken 2nd place.
Congrats to Amy on the win.
Congrats to Amy on the win.
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
~~ Thomas Jefferson
War is where the government tells you who the bad guy is.
Revolution is when you decide that for yourself.
-- Benjamin Franklin (maybe)
~~ Thomas Jefferson
War is where the government tells you who the bad guy is.
Revolution is when you decide that for yourself.
-- Benjamin Franklin (maybe)
- earendel
- Posts: 13869
- Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:25 am
- Location: mired in the bureaucracy
Re: TOC Day 3 Final J
According to the "Inside Jeopardy" podcast, ...there's only 1 New Testament epistle with the most Old Testament quotes and ii is Hebrews. This was said by Sarah, one of the hosts of the podcast. She said that Michael Harris was the head researcher; he and the staff reached out to "a seminarian" for extra assistance on the clue. They also consulted a KJV Bible, which had "Paul's Letter to the Hebrews" as the title. I find it hard to believe both of these statements - a seminarian would (should) know better.
"Elen sila lumenn omentielvo...A star shines on the hour of our meeting."
- BackInTex
- Posts: 13535
- Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:43 pm
- Location: In Texas of course!
Re: TOC Day 3 Final J
I know you agree with me but that was not the question. The question was which of Paul's NT epistles had the most OT quotes. There is the disagreement on if Hebrews was "Paul's" and even, as you pointed out, if it is an epistle.earendel wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:35 amAccording to the "Inside Jeopardy" podcast, ...there's only 1 New Testament epistle with the most Old Testament quotes and ii is Hebrews. This was said by Sarah, one of the hosts of the podcast. She said that Michael Harris was the head researcher; he and the staff reached out to "a seminarian" for extra assistance on the clue. They also consulted a KJV Bible, which had "Paul's Letter to the Hebrews" as the title. I find it hard to believe both of these statements - a seminarian would (should) know better.
A Google of "Paul's letter to the Hebrews" returns nothing saying it is from Paul until result number 5 which is from the Morman site (not really a site I'd go to for biblical research). The next reference is a Catholicism site, so I assume Catholics still consider Paul as the author of Hebrews.
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
~~ Thomas Jefferson
War is where the government tells you who the bad guy is.
Revolution is when you decide that for yourself.
-- Benjamin Franklin (maybe)
~~ Thomas Jefferson
War is where the government tells you who the bad guy is.
Revolution is when you decide that for yourself.
-- Benjamin Franklin (maybe)
- Bob78164
- Bored Moderator
- Posts: 22040
- Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:02 pm
- Location: By the phone
Re: TOC Day 3 Final J
That wasn't the clue. The clue, which I quoted above, asked for the New Testament epistle that had the most Old Testament quotes. The clue provided additional information that the correct response was "Paul's letter," but the reference to Paul was not part of the call of the clue.
If Paul did not in fact write Hebrews and Hebrews is the New Testament epistle with the most Old Testament references, then there is no correct response. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson
- BackInTex
- Posts: 13535
- Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:43 pm
- Location: In Texas of course!
Re: TOC Day 3 Final J
Bob78164 wrote: ↑Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:20 amThat wasn't the clue. The clue, which I quoted above, asked for the New Testament epistle that had the most Old Testament quotes. The clue provided additional information that the correct response was "Paul's letter," but the reference to Paul was not part of the call of the clue.
If Paul did not in fact write Hebrews and Hebrews is the New Testament epistle with the most Old Testament references, then there is no correct response. --Bob
Ken Jennings wrote:Mona Lisa, what is your response to today's Final J answer?
Mona Lisa Vito wrote:There is no response.
Ken Jennings wrote:And why is that?
BackInTex to Ear wrote:Watch this...
Mona Lisa Vito wrote:It's a bullshit answer
Ken Jennings wrote:And why is it a , um, bullshit answer?
Mona Lisa Vito wrote:Because Paul didn't write the epistle with the most Old Testament references. The epistle with the most references to the Old Testament is Hebrews, and NO ONE, and I mean no one, knows who actually wrote Hebrews. But, if Paul did write Hebrews, then the drop dead correct response is Hebrews
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
~~ Thomas Jefferson
War is where the government tells you who the bad guy is.
Revolution is when you decide that for yourself.
-- Benjamin Franklin (maybe)
~~ Thomas Jefferson
War is where the government tells you who the bad guy is.
Revolution is when you decide that for yourself.
-- Benjamin Franklin (maybe)
- Bob Juch
- Posts: 27060
- Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:58 am
- Location: Oro Valley, Arizona
- Contact:
Re: TOC Day 3 Final J
Isn't an epistle the same as a letter?
All this arguing about mythology.
All this arguing about mythology.
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.
- Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001)
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.
Teach a child to be polite and courteous in the home and, when he grows up, he'll never be able to drive in New Jersey.
- Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001)
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.
Teach a child to be polite and courteous in the home and, when he grows up, he'll never be able to drive in New Jersey.
- earendel
- Posts: 13869
- Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:25 am
- Location: mired in the bureaucracy
Re: TOC Day 3 Final J
Yes, and Hebrews is neither. Or, rather, it doesn't conform to the style of letter-writing commonplace in the 1st century.
"Elen sila lumenn omentielvo...A star shines on the hour of our meeting."