Society is screwed

[Bob78164]

Many many people use this all to cast blame. You are wrong.

Remember when women couldn't get credit cards, the vote, buy a house, oh lotsa stuff.

You don't get to tell me that my value judgments are wrong. In my opinion, what I wrote is the reason it's so important to teach these issues in school. I could readily come up with lots of examples where kids who are brought up in religious traditions other than the tradition dominating a particular locality are force-fed values that are uniquely advanced by the majority tradition.

How does our society's former political and economic discrimination against women, particularly married women, carry through to the present day? If there are such examples, I'd have no problem with teaching kids to see such examples. Even young children can recognize injustice when they see it. --Bob

[BackInTex]

I'll finish with a question for you. If you could change places with an African American who is on the same socio-economic level that you are, would you?

My answer is no, but race has nothing to do with it. I wouldn't change places with any one. Stupid question.

Why do you think it better for minorities to teach them at a young age the world (or at least this part of it) is against them, they can't get a fair shake, etc. rather than show them the opportunities and those that have become successful, and teach them how.

No one becomes a success without a few failures along the way. And no one becomes successful if they believe those failures are not due to them but everyone else. They will keep doing what they've done, not change (because it's not them, it's us), and they will get the same result, failure. Over and over again.

[Beebs52]

Many many people use this all to cast blame. You are wrong.

Remember when women couldn't get credit cards, the vote, buy a house, oh lotsa stuff.

You don't get to tell me that my value judgments are wrong.

Of course I do. What country do you live in? It's why y'all are getting more and more cancelled. That attitude is insane.
I think your value judgments are warped on a lot of issues. Go tell the teacher, wahwahwah.

[Bob78164]

Many many people use this all to cast blame. You are wrong.

Remember when women couldn't get credit cards, the vote, buy a house, oh lotsa stuff.

You don't get to tell me that my value judgments are wrong.

Of course I do. What country do you live in? It's why y'all are getting more and more cancelled. That attitude is insane.
I think your value judgments are warped on a lot of issues. Go tell the teacher, wahwahwah.

If you insist on the position that my value judgments are objectively wrong (as opposed to the position that you disagree with my value judgments), then there's nothing left to discuss and all I can do to implement my value judgments is my level best to politically bulldoze you. If, instead, you're willing to frame the issue as a disagreement over things as to which objective truth cannot exist, then political solutions short of the other side's political destruction are at least conceivable. --Bob

[Beebs52]

You don't get to tell me that my value judgments are wrong.

Of course I do. What country do you live in? It's why y'all are getting more and more cancelled. That attitude is insane.
I think your value judgments are warped on a lot of issues. Go tell the teacher, wahwahwah.

If you insist on the position that my value judgments are objectively wrong (as opposed to the position that you disagree with my value judgments), then there's nothing left to discuss and all I can do to implement my value judgments is my level best to politically bulldoze you. If, instead, you're willing to frame the issue as a disagreement over things as to which objective truth cannot exist, then political solutions short of the other side's political destruction are at least conceivable. --Bob

Bob, you really are a piece of work.
Value judgment-subjective. My values on many things bash up against your weird wall of objectivity/subjectivity.
Bulldoze away dude!
When I vote for a dem, which I have in the past, hope your mind doesn't splode.
Take a deep breath and realize you are not the arbiter of right.

[tlynn78]

Not much 'goes without saying' when you're talking about teaching, especially, but not limited to, elementary age students. They simply don't have the context.

What she said.

Plus, should we not include the history of slavery from BC times to now, along with those who sold their families to traders, and Greeks and mideastern folks and indentured servants, yada yada, to include "context", and to illustrate that the US is not the beginning of the problem? At least we're attempting redemption.

Oh, and trafficking. There's that, too.
Hmm. Open borders and internet much?

The point is not the history of slavery and racial discrimination. The point isn't to cast blame. The point is that our country's history of slavery and racial discrimination has very real effects that are quite visible in today's society, and we need to be teaching people how to see those effects.

One straightforward example. Redlining was prevalent shortly after World War II. As a result of that redlining, many, many Black families were shut out of the housing market, when similarly situated white families were able to enter it. And as a result of that outright discrimination (which still exists today, by the way, as many hidden camera studies focused on real estate agents have amply demonstrated), Black families were shut out of a source of generational wealth.

As for context, remember that minority students (particularly Black students) don't have the luxury of waiting until people are comfortable that they understand context. The whole world force-feeds context to them. How long do you think Black families wait before giving their kids, particularly their sons, "The Talk"? --Bob

My grands are doing just fine. We don't have "The Talk" - we just talk to them.

[silverscreenselect]

My grands are doing just fine. We don't have "The Talk" - we just talk to them.

Your grands don't need The Talk. They're not in danger of getting shot or hassled by police simply because of their skin color.

[flockofseagulls104]

Speaking of someone who is part of the problem. See the previous post ^^^^^^^^

[tlynn78]

My grands are doing just fine. We don't have "The Talk" - we just talk to them.

Your grands don't need The Talk. They're not in danger of getting shot or hassled by police simply because of their skin color.

Again spewing crap you know nothing about, two of my grands are PoC. Maybe just consider you don't know what you don't know.

[flockofseagulls104]

My grands are doing just fine. We don't have "The Talk" - we just talk to them.

Your grands don't need The Talk. They're not in danger of getting shot or hassled by police simply because of their skin color.

Again spewing crap you know nothing about, two of my grands are PoC. Maybe just consider you don't know what you don't know.

bob and the stalker don't know that they don't know what they don't know. So they know everything. And act like it, too. Makes it kind of amusing when they are completely wrong.

[tlynn78]

Your grands don't need The Talk. They're not in danger of getting shot or hassled by police simply because of their skin color.

Again spewing crap you know nothing about, two of my grands are PoC. Maybe just consider you don't know what you don't know.

bob doesn't know that he doesn't know what he doesn't know. So he knows everything. And acts like it, too.

Undoubtedly, but this one was your fanboi

[flockofseagulls104]

Again spewing crap you know nothing about, two of my grands are PoC. Maybe just consider you don't know what you don't know.

bob doesn't know that he doesn't know what he doesn't know. So he knows everything. And acts like it, too.

Undoubtedly, but this one was your fanboi

Darn, caught it before I corrected it. I don't know everything. at least at first glance.
But they don't admit when they're wrong. They'll accuse you of lying about it.

[Beebs52]

bob doesn't know that he doesn't know what he doesn't know. So he knows everything. And acts like it, too.

Undoubtedly, but this one was your fanboi

Darn, caught it before I corrected it. I don't know everything. at least at first glance.
But they don't admit when they're wrong. They'll accuse you of lying about it.

Unlike those who thrive on "objectivity".

[tlynn78]

Undoubtedly, but this one was your fanboi

Darn, caught it before I corrected it. I don't know everything. at least at first glance.
But they don't admit when they're wrong. They'll accuse you of lying about it.

Unlike those who thrive on "objectivity".

Indeed.

[flockofseagulls104]

Darn, caught it before I corrected it. I don't know everything. at least at first glance.
But they don't admit when they're wrong. They'll accuse you of lying about it.

Unlike those who thrive on "objectivity".

Indeed.

In my defense, it's difficult to tell their posts apart, at least based on content. bob tends to use longer words to say nothing than the stalker does, and he types his name at the end of his posts. Stalker usually takes a swipe at me in the posts I see from him. This one didn't mention me at all, so at first glance, I thought it was bob.

[tlynn78]

Unlike those who thrive on "objectivity".

Indeed.

In my defense, it's difficult to tell their posts apart, at least based on content. bob tends to use longer words to say nothing than the stalker does, and he types his name at the end of his posts. Stalker usually takes a swipe at me in the posts I see from him. This one didn't mention me at all, so at first glance, I thought it was bob.

There's that. And I'm quick

[kroxquo]

Which part is crap?

It goes without saying that people of the past lived in a culture and society with different values and mores. It also goes without saying that progress in the area of racism there has been progress. That does not insulate the past from affecting the present. Chattel slavery was introduced to the British colonies in 1619 (having existed for more than a hundred years before that in the Portuguese and Spanish colonies before that) and from that time on it had an impact on what became the U.S. The entire economy of the South was based on slavery which fueled the growth of cash agriculture. It became so ingrained in American culture that the Declaration of Independence would not have passed without references to it being eliminated. It was codified in the Constitution with the 3/5 Compromise and the ban on touching the slave trade in Congress until 1809. Slavery and its expansion was THE issue that drove the wedge between Americans in antebellum America and the South's desire to maintain it was the primary cause of the Civil War. The Civil War led to Jim Crow which further solidified and codified racism as a system. Moreover, racist practices like redlining in all parts of the country or outright organized state-sponsored purges such as the one in Wilmington NC in 1890 or Tulsa in 1921 led to the marginalization and hindering of the progress of the African American community. The civil rights movement of the 1960's made progress, but did not solve everything. And in fact many of the gains of that era like the voting rights act are now being reversed and gutted. The legacy of Jim Crow, which is the legacy of the Civil War, which is the legacy of the Civil War still exists today.

Not much 'goes without saying' when you're talking about teaching, especially, but not limited to, elementary age students. They simply don't have the context.

What she said.

Plus, should we not include the history of slavery from BC times to now, along with those who sold their families to traders, and Greeks and mideastern folks and indentured servants, yada yada, to include "context", and to illustrate that the US is not the beginning of the problem? At least we're attempting redemption.

Oh, and trafficking. There's that, too.
Hmm. Open borders and internet much?

There is a crucial difference between slavery as it was mostly practiced over thousands of years and the slavery that emerged from the triangular trade. This slavery was chattel slavery where the slaves had no rights and were denied their very humanity. That type of objectification leads to scars on the psyches of those involved - slaves and masters alike. And those scars have not healed.

[Beebs52]

Not much 'goes without saying' when you're talking about teaching, especially, but not limited to, elementary age students. They simply don't have the context.

What she said.

Plus, should we not include the history of slavery from BC times to now, along with those who sold their families to traders, and Greeks and mideastern folks and indentured servants, yada yada, to include "context", and to illustrate that the US is not the beginning of the problem? At least we're attempting redemption.

Oh, and trafficking. There's that, too.
Hmm. Open borders and internet much?

There is a crucial difference between slavery as it was mostly practiced over thousands of years and the slavery that emerged from the triangular trade. This slavery was chattel slavery where the slaves had no rights and were denied their very humanity. That type of objectification leads to scars on the psyches of those involved - slaves and masters alike. And those scars have not healed.

Who says slave trade other than triangular is better?

[flockofseagulls104]

Not much 'goes without saying' when you're talking about teaching, especially, but not limited to, elementary age students. They simply don't have the context.

What she said.

Plus, should we not include the history of slavery from BC times to now, along with those who sold their families to traders, and Greeks and mideastern folks and indentured servants, yada yada, to include "context", and to illustrate that the US is not the beginning of the problem? At least we're attempting redemption.

Oh, and trafficking. There's that, too.
Hmm. Open borders and internet much?

There is a crucial difference between slavery as it was mostly practiced over thousands of years and the slavery that emerged from the triangular trade. This slavery was chattel slavery where the slaves had no rights and were denied their very humanity. That type of objectification leads to scars on the psyches of those involved - slaves and masters alike. And those scars have not healed.

No one of sound mind today will disagree with you that what was practiced was evil. I won't even argue with you about the relative evilness of the type of slavery practiced in the history of this country and slavery practiced in other places throughout history. Hell, you or I or anyone might, and probably have, some blood of former slaves in us. It can be argued, but it's a moot point.

But no person that I know has ever owned a slave or has ever been one. No one I have ever known, alive or dead, has ever owned a slave or been one. I ask you again. What, specifically, will have to be done for us as a country to get past this? What are the ultimate goals that we have to reach that will heal those scars?

[silverscreenselect]

Plus, should we not include the history of slavery from BC times to now, along with those who sold their families to traders, and Greeks and mideastern folks and indentured servants, yada yada, to include "context", and to illustrate that the US is not the beginning of the problem? At least we're attempting redemption.

As far as I know, there are no high school classes in "Slavery Throughout History." There are classes in US History and World History. You can't teach US history meaningfully without a discussion of slavery and its effect on American culture, politics, and economics since colonial times. On the other hand, slavery in other countries and other times is at best marginally relevant to the US experience and there's simply no time for it in the typical high school study curriculum. There have also been civil wars throughout history in many countries and there is no room in an American History class to discuss them.

[flockofseagulls104]

I wasn't asking you, stalker.

[silverscreenselect]

My grands are doing just fine. We don't have "The Talk" - we just talk to them.

Your grands don't need The Talk. They're not in danger of getting shot or hassled by police simply because of their skin color.

Again spewing crap you know nothing about, two of my grands are PoC. Maybe just consider you don't know what you don't know.

If I incorrectly characterized members of your family, I apologize.

That doesn't change the point that racial profiling exists in Montana and all over the country and people of color, including your grandchildren, are far more likely to run into trouble with the police and "good citizens" who profile them as criminals. Some examples (they aren't hard to find, even in Montana):

Montana ACLU announces settlement of Havre border patrol profiling case

Ana Suda and Martha “Mimi” Hernandez, two American citizens detained by U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP) for speaking Spanish while shopping at a local convenience store in Havre, Montana, have reached a settlement in their lawsuit against the Trump administration.

Black TikToker says she was ‘racially profiled,’ accused of stealing at Target while buying from Black History Month collection

A Black woman says she was “racially profiled” by a white employee at a Target in Kalispell, Montana, while trying to purchase items from the store’s Black History Month collection. “We don’t go to town much. So I went in to purchase the items, went to the self-checkout, and by the time I got up to the register, I was being harassed by a white clerk. She was accusing me of stealing. She was invading my personal space. I had a mask, I was telling her please back up, her not having on a mask. She proceeded to go into my bag that I had already scanned items.”

Firm Prevails in Lawsuit Against Montana Highway Patrol's Racial Profiling of Latinos

On April 4, 2014, the Border Crossing Law Firm prevailed in its class action lawsuit against the Montana Highway Patrol, which was brought because the Montana Highway Patrol was engaging in a practice of detaining Latino drivers and passengers for the purpose of checking into their immigration status.

WALMART APOLOGIZES FOR RACIST INCIDENT IN BOZEMAN STORE

In February 2016, Dr. Kalonde, a tenure-track MSU professor and a Black Montana resident, went to Bozeman’s Walmart to renew his fishing license. Soon after, he realized that a Walmart employee had deliberately and manually typed Dr. Kalonde’s profession as “CLEAN TOILETS” on the license.

There's more. Admittely, there aren't as many incidents in Montana as in some other states because Montana is a smaller state in population with a small percentage of racial minorities (0.6% black; 4.1% Latino; 6.7% American Indian; 2.8 % multi-racial). And blacks are arrested and incarcerated at much higher rates than whites in Montana.

I don't know your grandchildren's age, but once they become teenagers or adults, they will be considerably more at risk than whites.

[silverscreenselect]

I wasn't asking you, stalker.

Not that it matters, but I was responding to beebs. But if it makes you feel any better, your political posts in response to just about anyone on this Bored are equally moronic.

[silverscreenselect]

Not much 'goes without saying' when you're talking about teaching, especially, but not limited to, elementary age students. They simply don't have the context.

Elementary school students may not have the context to understand all the nuances of slavery, but they can understand how horrible it is, if they are taught. I remember actually seeing Song of the South in a Junior high school assembly. For a look at how another country handles a somewhat analogous portion of its history, here's an article about German education on the Holocaust:

In Germany, the teaching of the Holocaust is the one educational matter on which each of the 16 federal states, which set their own curricula, collaborate. It is mandatory in history and civics classes, and will most likely also be covered in literature and religion lessons, and possibly in biology, art and music. Most schoolchildren will at some point visit a concentration camp – although this is not compulsory, except in Bavaria.

On the subject of Holocaust education in Germany, the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance says: “Germany knows the magnitude of its responsibility for the worst crimes in European history and strives to come to grips with this legacy. If there is anything Germany can share from its own experience, it is this: facing up to the grim truth of what took place is the only path to reconciliation. A past that is not examined fully and honestly will remain a burden for the future.”

Dr Jan Schulte is an associate professor at the University of Bochum, teaching modern history, specifically the history of Nazi crimes. He is also the director of the Hadamar Memorial Museum, which commemorates the victims of the Hadamar Euthanasia Centre – a psychiatric hospital used as one of six centres by the Nazi regime for its euthanasia programme, under which an estimated 200,000 people with physical and mental disabilities were killed in Germany and Austria.

Schulte is responsible for the educational programme at the museum, which is visited by around 15,000 school pupils annually.

He says: “The German perspective is always included. In school it is discussed how the Nazi dictatorship could happen and how it was part of German history, that is how did the Nazi movement evolve after the First World War, what was the role of the Weimar Republic and its many challenges, including a Conservative civil service and widespread anti-Semitism. It is discussed who the German perpetrators were and how German society as a whole reacted towards the Holocaust. And, of course, the long history of German Jews in Germany is discussed as a part of German history.

“Part of teaching the Holocaust is also a discussion of what the German population did know about the perpetration and extermination of Jews, it is taught that [they] did know quite well about the Holocaust. At least from my experience, pupils are very willing and eager to discuss both the Nazi past and what might be the consequences for our present. At Hadamar Memorial Museum we experience that pupils make connections between the experiences of segregation of Jews during Nazi times and the marginalisation of present day groups, like refugees.

“Teaching about the Holocaust is paramount for reflecting present events. If the rising anti-Semitism, racist rhetoric and tendency to marginalise those who are seen as ‘different’ are set against our knowledge of the past, especially the Nazi dictatorship and the Holocaust, we will see what can happen. Neo-Nazi and racist rhetoric has consequences. We have seen this in the past and, while on a different scale, we see it in the present.”

https://www.euronews.com/2020/01/27/hol ... ur-country

[kroxquo]

I wasn't asking you, stalker.

And he wasn't talking to you.

And I agree entirely with what he said.