Well, the Trucker Protests Show Us One Thing Anyway

[flockofseagulls104]

Bob, from what I've seen of your interactions on this bored, you know less about the real world of anything than your average Hollywood celebrity.

SImple test for you Flock to see how much you know about the real world:

Do you believe that Joe Biden legitimately won the 2020 election?

Simple answer: I don't know. I harbor some healthy skepticism because I've actually looked into it as best I can. And there's been a lot of censorship and canceling on this issue. But I am not going to the same place that many of your stripe went to with Trump. He IS our President. But I hope not for very long.

Simple test for you:
Do you accept the Mueller report's findings that there was no evidence supporting the accusation that Trump colluded with the Russians?

[Bob78164]

Bob, from what I've seen of your interactions on this bored, you know less about the real world of anything than your average Hollywood celebrity.

SImple test for you Flock to see how much you know about the real world:

Do you believe that Joe Biden legitimately won the 2020 election?

Simple answer: I don't know. I harbor some healthy skepticism because I've actually looked into it as best I can. And there's been a lot of censorship and canceling on this issue. But I am not going to the same place that many of your stripe went to with Trump. He IS our President. But I hope not for very long.

Simple test for you:
Do you accept the Mueller report's findings that there was no evidence supporting the accusation that Trump colluded with the Russians?

You really need to work on your reading comprehension. (You did read the Mueller report, right?) That's not what the Mueller report found. The Mueller Report did not use the word collusion because that word has no legal meaning. It found insufficient evidence to proceed with a criminal prosecution. That is by no means the same thing as no evidence. --Bob

[silverscreenselect]

Simple test for you:
Do you accept the Mueller report's findings that there was no evidence supporting the accusation that Trump colluded with the Russians?

That's not what the report said, although your Fox News filter might lead you to believe that. Mueller noted that "collusion" is not defined in the criminal code.
Mueller said that he "did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities." This means that he did not have what he felt was sufficient evidence to get a criminal conviction on conspiracy or similar charges. That's not the same thing as saying there was no evidence that Trump colluded. He went on to say that a "statement that the investigation did not establish particular facts does not mean there was no evidence of those facts."

What Mueller lacked was the "smoking gun," a provable act committed by Trump and the Russians in concert that would establish proof beyond a reasonable doubt. What I know about the investigation I would agree with that.

[flockofseagulls104]

Simple test for you:
Do you accept the Mueller report's findings that there was no evidence supporting the accusation that Trump colluded with the Russians?

That's not what the report said, although your Fox News filter might lead you to believe that. Mueller noted that "collusion" is not defined in the criminal code.
Mueller said that he "did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities." This means that he did not have what he felt was sufficient evidence to get a criminal conviction on conspiracy or similar charges. That's not the same thing as saying there was no evidence that Trump colluded. He went on to say that a "statement that the investigation did not establish particular facts does not mean there was no evidence of those facts."

What Mueller lacked was the "smoking gun," a provable act committed by Trump and the Russians in concert that would establish proof beyond a reasonable doubt. What I know about the investigation I would agree with that.

Of course I couldn't expect a straight answer from you on anything. What was I thinking?
Lee's see. Should I even bother? OK, why not?
So, I take it, you still believe, after 2 1/2 years of frantically trying to find something, anything, and with the media stomping its feet every day and nothing of substance ever resulting, that Trump somehow did something with the Russians? And, it's a simple yes or no or I don't know. I don't want to hear your talking points.

[Weyoun]

Weyoun, and only weyoun please,

Tell me, what if we woke up tomorrow and everyone in the world was vaccinated. What would be different than today?

Relatively minimal risk of rapid disease transmission. Very minimal risk of many people getting sick and overwhelmed in the hospital.

In short, status quo antebellum.

No reason to wear a mask, except I would suggest doing that even during flu season if you’re coughing and ill.

Nothing should be locked down.

Just remember, the people who moan the loudest about shut downs are the ones who are doing the least to prevent things from getting back to normal.

It’s like they exist to complain

[Bob78164]

Simple test for you:
Do you accept the Mueller report's findings that there was no evidence supporting the accusation that Trump colluded with the Russians?

That's not what the report said, although your Fox News filter might lead you to believe that. Mueller noted that "collusion" is not defined in the criminal code.
Mueller said that he "did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities." This means that he did not have what he felt was sufficient evidence to get a criminal conviction on conspiracy or similar charges. That's not the same thing as saying there was no evidence that Trump colluded. He went on to say that a "statement that the investigation did not establish particular facts does not mean there was no evidence of those facts."

What Mueller lacked was the "smoking gun," a provable act committed by Trump and the Russians in concert that would establish proof beyond a reasonable doubt. What I know about the investigation I would agree with that.

Of course I couldn't expect a straight answer from you on anything. What was I thinking?

You asked a question with a demonstrably false premise. That made it impossible to answer. It's just like asking, "Have you stopped beating your wife?"

Think I'm wrong? Good news! You can prove it! Point me to the language in the Mueller Report "finding[ ] that there was no evidence supporting the accusation that [Donny] colluded with the Russians." If you find language to that effect in the Mueller Report and point me to it, I will apologize for my error.

But if you're wrong, and the Mueller Report says no such thing (and it doesn't), then you should apologize to us.

What about it, flock? Are you willing to accept this little wager? Or will you, as usual, back away when challenged to prove your "facts." --Bob

[flockofseagulls104]

That's not what the report said, although your Fox News filter might lead you to believe that. Mueller noted that "collusion" is not defined in the criminal code.
Mueller said that he "did not establish that members of the Trump Campaign conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in its election interference activities." This means that he did not have what he felt was sufficient evidence to get a criminal conviction on conspiracy or similar charges. That's not the same thing as saying there was no evidence that Trump colluded. He went on to say that a "statement that the investigation did not establish particular facts does not mean there was no evidence of those facts."

What Mueller lacked was the "smoking gun," a provable act committed by Trump and the Russians in concert that would establish proof beyond a reasonable doubt. What I know about the investigation I would agree with that.

Of course I couldn't expect a straight answer from you on anything. What was I thinking?

You asked a question with a demonstrably false premise. That made it impossible to answer. It's just like asking, "Have you stopped beating your wife?"

Think I'm wrong? Good news! You can prove it! Point me to the language in the Mueller Report "finding[ ] that there was no evidence supporting the accusation that [Donny] colluded with the Russians." If you find language to that effect in the Mueller Report and point me to it, I will apologize for my error.

But if you're wrong, and the Mueller Report says no such thing (and it doesn't), then you should apologize to us.

What about it, flock? Are you willing to accept this little wager? Or will you, as usual, back away when challenged to prove your "facts." --Bob

I was addressing SSS, not you. Please try and at least be courteous enough to stay out of conversations you are not part of. He asked me a question, I answered. I asked him a question. He does not need your help. You need to keep out of it. Got it?

[silverscreenselect]

So, I take it, you still believe, after 2 1/2 years of frantically trying to find something, anything, and with the media stomping its feet every day and nothing of substance ever resulting, that Trump somehow did something with the Russians? And, it's a simple yes or no or I don't know. I don't want to hear your talking points.

Ignoring your hyberole here, I'll answer with what was pointed out by Mueller in his report.

1) Did the Russians attempt to influence the 2016 election? Yes
2) Did Trump (and/or his representatives) seek out Russian help in influencing the election? Yes
3) Was there an actual agreement between Trump (and/or his representatives) for the Russians to influence the election? That, by the way is the essence of a criminal conspiracy is that the parties come to an agreement. I don't know but I believe so. That's what the meeting with the Russians in the summer of 2016 was about, in my opinion and that of a lot of other people. But there's no definitive record of what went on at that meeting, so we'll never know for sure. That's what Mueller couldn't prove to what he felt was beyond a reasonable doubt.

[flockofseagulls104]

Weyoun, and only weyoun please,

Tell me, what if we woke up tomorrow and everyone in the world was vaccinated. What would be different than today?

Relatively minimal risk of rapid disease transmission. Very minimal risk of many people getting sick and overwhelmed in the hospital.

In short, status quo antebellum.

No reason to wear a mask, except I would suggest doing that even during flu season if you’re coughing and ill.

Nothing should be locked down.

Just remember, the people who moan the loudest about shut downs are the ones who are doing the least to prevent things from getting back to normal.

It’s like they exist to complain

I will ignore your vitriolic and ignorant statement about who is moaning and preventing things from getting back to normal. It is unseemly coming from a doctor of medicine, IMO. Most of the people, including me, that I know of who reject lockdowns and federal government mandates are fully vaccinated. Including most of the truckers that are protesting. You are just spreading hatred, IMO.

This is what I understand at the present time. It has changed dramatically in the past couple years, but this is what I have heard recently. But I am not a medical professional, I can only speak to the information that has been presented to me, though much of it is contradictory. Correct me where I might be wrong, but keep it factual, please. No rhetoric or speeches.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So as I understand it, this vaccine doesn't prevent a person from contracting any covid variant or spreading it. Right?

It's main claim to fame, which has been ratcheted down several times from what it was touted to be able to do when it first came out, is that supposedly one gets 'less sick' when they get covid. Right?

If I comprehend the current argument, the 'science' states that vaccinated people have significantly less chance of serious illness or complications from covid than non vaccinated people, right?

Unvaccinated people therefore have a higher chance of getting seriously ill from covid, even if they already had it, right?

Currently, the CDC does not recognize that having had covid gives you any natural immunity, right? So, does that rule out herd immunity for covid?

But there are a significant number of cases where people have had strong to severe reactions to receiving the vaccine, right?

If everyone is vaccinated, that doesn't mean the covid virus will just disappear from the face of the earth, right?

So it will still be around to infect people, maybe even mutate, even though everyone is vaccinated, right?

So, if someone chooses, for whatever reason, not to accept a foreign substance being injected into their body, they probably know, unless they are impaired, that they run a higher risk of getting seriously ill than if they did get the vaccine. But they have decided, for whatever reason, that risk is preferable to getting the vaccine, right?

Now if they do contract covid, they can certainly pass it on to someone else, whether that person is vaccinated or not, right?

And if that person is vaccinated, according to the current 'science', that person is as protected as they can be against covid, right?

So let me ask you, If covid will not go away, and you can get it even if you are vaccinated, why should you care if someone else exercises their freedom of choice and assumes the risk that if they get it, it will be more serious for them?

In other issues, don't pretty much the same people who advocate forcing everyone to inject a foreign substance into their bodies also proclaim 'Our Bodies, Our Choice'? I know it's a different circumstance, but does it not render that iconic phrase pointless unless it applies universally? Either we get to decide what we want to do or not to do with our own bodies, or we don't, right?

In America, is there any issue of this kind where 100% of the people will agree? And, if not, would you want to live in an America where the current party in power believes it has the right and authority to force every single person to do what they have determined is 'best'? Think about it.

I AM TALKING TO WEYOUN, NOT YOU. PLEASE RESPECT THAT AND DON'T PILE ON.

[Bob78164]

Of course I couldn't expect a straight answer from you on anything. What was I thinking?

You asked a question with a demonstrably false premise. That made it impossible to answer. It's just like asking, "Have you stopped beating your wife?"

Think I'm wrong? Good news! You can prove it! Point me to the language in the Mueller Report "finding[ ] that there was no evidence supporting the accusation that [Donny] colluded with the Russians." If you find language to that effect in the Mueller Report and point me to it, I will apologize for my error.

But if you're wrong, and the Mueller Report says no such thing (and it doesn't), then you should apologize to us.

What about it, flock? Are you willing to accept this little wager? Or will you, as usual, back away when challenged to prove your "facts." --Bob

I was addressing SSS, not you. Please try and at least be courteous enough to stay out of conversations you are not part of. He asked me a question, I answered. I asked him a question. He does not need your help. You need to keep out of it. Got it?

If you engage on a public message board, anyone gets to participate. So go flock yourself. --Bob

[flockofseagulls104]

You asked a question with a demonstrably false premise. That made it impossible to answer. It's just like asking, "Have you stopped beating your wife?"

Think I'm wrong? Good news! You can prove it! Point me to the language in the Mueller Report "finding[ ] that there was no evidence supporting the accusation that [Donny] colluded with the Russians." If you find language to that effect in the Mueller Report and point me to it, I will apologize for my error.

But if you're wrong, and the Mueller Report says no such thing (and it doesn't), then you should apologize to us.

What about it, flock? Are you willing to accept this little wager? Or will you, as usual, back away when challenged to prove your "facts." --Bob

I was addressing SSS, not you. Please try and at least be courteous enough to stay out of conversations you are not part of. He asked me a question, I answered. I asked him a question. He does not need your help. You need to keep out of it. Got it?

If you engage on a public message board, anyone gets to participate. So go flock yourself. --Bob

Courteousness is not your stock in trade. I guess you think he needs your help. You are so insecure in your beliefs that you have to inject yourself everywhere, don't you? Do what you want. You show yourself for what you are.

[silverscreenselect]

So let me ask you, If covid will not go away, and you can get it even if you are vaccinated, why should you care if someone else exercises their freedom of choice and assumes the risk that if they get it, it will be more serious for them?

Flock, do you remember T-Bone?

He's a reason why I care if someone else exercises their freedom of choice. It hurts to think that the person who passed COVID along to T-Bone may well have been one of those people who exercised their freedom of choice. Because everyone who is vaccinated reduces the chances of getting it and spreading it. It's not perfect, but it's better than not having the vaccine. And those people who do wind up contracting a serious case clog up hospitals and make it more difficult for others to get treatment.

You're also a day late and a dollar short about mandating vaccines. Every state in the US mandates vaccines for various diseases for children. Some of them mandate vaccines for college students or for specific vocations. And it's not just vaccines. Almost every state mandates wearing safety belts. Many states mandate wearing motorcycle helmets.

And I don't care who you addressed your question to originally.

[Weyoun]

Weyoun, and only weyoun please,

Tell me, what if we woke up tomorrow and everyone in the world was vaccinated. What would be different than today?

Relatively minimal risk of rapid disease transmission. Very minimal risk of many people getting sick and overwhelmed in the hospital.

In short, status quo antebellum.

No reason to wear a mask, except I would suggest doing that even during flu season if you’re coughing and ill.

Nothing should be locked down.

Just remember, the people who moan the loudest about shut downs are the ones who are doing the least to prevent things from getting back to normal.

It’s like they exist to complain

I will ignore your vitriolic and ignorant statement about who is moaning and preventing things from getting back to normal. It is unseemly coming from a doctor of medicine, IMO. Most of the people, including me, that I know of who reject lockdowns and federal government mandates are fully vaccinated. Including most of the truckers that are protesting. You are just spreading hatred, IMO.

This is what I understand at the present time. It has changed dramatically in the past couple years, but this is what I have heard recently. But I am not a medical professional, I can only speak to the information that has been presented to me, though much of it is contradictory. Correct me where I might be wrong, but keep it factual, please. No rhetoric or speeches.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So as I understand it, this vaccine doesn't prevent a person from contracting any covid variant or spreading it. Right?

It's main claim to fame, which has been ratcheted down several times from what it was touted to be able to do when it first came out, is that supposedly one gets 'less sick' when they get covid. Right?

If I comprehend the current argument, the 'science' states that vaccinated people have significantly less chance of serious illness or complications from covid than non vaccinated people, right?

Unvaccinated people therefore have a higher chance of getting seriously ill from covid, even if they already had it, right?

Currently, the CDC does not recognize that having had covid gives you any natural immunity, right? So, does that rule out herd immunity for covid?

But there are a significant number of cases where people have had strong to severe reactions to receiving the vaccine, right?

If everyone is vaccinated, that doesn't mean the covid virus will just disappear from the face of the earth, right?

So it will still be around to infect people, maybe even mutate, even though everyone is vaccinated, right?

So, if someone chooses, for whatever reason, not to accept a foreign substance being injected into their body, they probably know, unless they are impaired, that they run a higher risk of getting seriously ill than if they did get the vaccine. But they have decided, for whatever reason, that risk is preferable to getting the vaccine, right?

Now if they do contract covid, they can certainly pass it on to someone else, whether that person is vaccinated or not, right?

And if that person is vaccinated, according to the current 'science', that person is as protected as they can be against covid, right?

So let me ask you, If covid will not go away, and you can get it even if you are vaccinated, why should you care if someone else exercises their freedom of choice and assumes the risk that if they get it, it will be more serious for them?

In other issues, don't pretty much the same people who advocate forcing everyone to inject a foreign substance into their bodies also proclaim 'Our Bodies, Our Choice'? I know it's a different circumstance, but does it not render that iconic phrase pointless unless it applies universally? Either we get to decide what we want to do or not to do with our own bodies, or we don't, right?

In America, is there any issue of this kind where 100% of the people will agree? And, if not, would you want to live in an America where the current party in power believes it has the right and authority to force every single person to do what they have determined is 'best'? Think about it.

I AM TALKING TO WEYOUN, NOT YOU. PLEASE RESPECT THAT AND DON'T PILE ON.

You asked me a question, then you completely change the scenario.

I gave you the answer to what you asked.

You then started making excuses for why you wouldn’t get vaccinated. As SSS points out, that’s pathetic of you. One of our board members died because he was chronically weak and no doubt got it from his community, which based on where he lived, is certainly full of antivaxx morons.

You guys keep tiptoeing around that. Spock is more worried about the case report of two dead teenage boys than someone he knew (though fascists are known for homoerotically exalting male youth and finding the infirmed inconvenient and disposable, so that is no surprise).

Unless you have herd immunity, third parties who are trying not to get sick still will get sick. I work at a hospital with a heavy emphasis in oncology. Half the patients in our ICU are the usual sort who weren’t vaccinated. The other half are vaccinated but they have some sort of hematological malignancy and are on chemotherapy and got it anyway. And there’s very little middle ground.

So, yes, the vaccine can mutate. But it’s more likely to mutate when it is successful and has more chances to replicate. That’s in the unvaccinated crowd. It’s also most likely to spread and sustain itself among unvaccinated people.

So the fact that there’s a theoretical chance it will always be around it doesn’t make much of a difference.

There’s also a theoretical reality that this will be a mild disease and five years from now, vaccines won’t regularly be needed. Great!

But that’s not what you asked. You asked what would happen if everyone today was vaccinated. I told you what is agreed upon among those who deal in this thing. I even told you politically something you would like to hear, namely, a return to normalcy.

But you’re not interested in that. You’re interested in basically having a tantrum because someone is telling you to do something that you didn’t have to do two years ago.

I don’t care about a scenario. I care about what is the appropriate thing to do right now.

T-Bone died. I would recommend everyone get boosted to prevent another tragedy. Instead, you are “well that might give the other party a political victory.”

That’s low quality of you. You act like a patriot, but you have no interest in this country’s success or your fellow Americans.

Beebs will pipe in that I must be a bad doctor, and tlynn will start braying, but the simple truth is this - you were asked to help and said No. It is incredibly telling that all these scenarios about “one party telling us all what to do” is your first thought - instead of simply wanting to help other human beings.

[BackInTex]

So let me ask you, If covid will not go away, and you can get it even if you are vaccinated, why should you care if someone else exercises their freedom of choice and assumes the risk that if they get it, it will be more serious for them?

Flock, do you remember T-Bone?

He's a reason why I care if someone else exercises their freedom of choice. It hurts to think that the person who passed COVID along to T-Bone may well have been one of those people who exercised their freedom of choice. Because everyone who is vaccinated reduces the chances of getting it and spreading it. It's not perfect, but it's better than not having the vaccine. And those people who do wind up contracting a serious case clog up hospitals and make it more difficult for others to get treatment.

You're also a day late and a dollar short about mandating vaccines. Every state in the US mandates vaccines for various diseases for children. Some of them mandate vaccines for college students or for specific vocations. And it's not just vaccines. Almost every state mandates wearing safety belts. Many states mandate wearing motorcycle helmets.

And I don't care who you addressed your question to originally.

The person who passed Covid on to T-bone was likely vaccinated. T-bone was vaccinated. If you read the posts, they are not saying it was Covid that caused the issues that he eventually succumbed to. It certainly didn't help, but not the cause.

[tlynn78]

So let me ask you, If covid will not go away, and you can get it even if you are vaccinated, why should you care if someone else exercises their freedom of choice and assumes the risk that if they get it, it will be more serious for them?

Flock, do you remember T-Bone?

He's a reason why I care if someone else exercises their freedom of choice. It hurts to think that the person who passed COVID along to T-Bone may well have been one of those people who exercised their freedom of choice. Because everyone who is vaccinated reduces the chances of getting it and spreading it. It's not perfect, but it's better than not having the vaccine. And those people who do wind up contracting a serious case clog up hospitals and make it more difficult for others to get treatment.

You're also a day late and a dollar short about mandating vaccines. Every state in the US mandates vaccines for various diseases for children. Some of them mandate vaccines for college students or for specific vocations. And it's not just vaccines. Almost every state mandates wearing safety belts. Many states mandate wearing motorcycle helmets.

And I don't care who you addressed your question to originally.

I wondered which of you asshats would be the first to trot him out. Do you honestly think, (I know, that's a stretch) that given his already very fragile health, he or his loved ones didn't do everything possible to avoid exposure to anyone unvaxxed? The far greater chance is that he was exposed by someone fully vaxxed. I'd paraphrase your little partner in ignorance, but I like to think I exercise slightly more maturity, most of the time.

[tlynn78]

Relatively minimal risk of rapid disease transmission. Very minimal risk of many people getting sick and overwhelmed in the hospital.

In short, status quo antebellum.

No reason to wear a mask, except I would suggest doing that even during flu season if you’re coughing and ill.

Nothing should be locked down.

Just remember, the people who moan the loudest about shut downs are the ones who are doing the least to prevent things from getting back to normal.

It’s like they exist to complain

I will ignore your vitriolic and ignorant statement about who is moaning and preventing things from getting back to normal. It is unseemly coming from a doctor of medicine, IMO. Most of the people, including me, that I know of who reject lockdowns and federal government mandates are fully vaccinated. Including most of the truckers that are protesting. You are just spreading hatred, IMO.

This is what I understand at the present time. It has changed dramatically in the past couple years, but this is what I have heard recently. But I am not a medical professional, I can only speak to the information that has been presented to me, though much of it is contradictory. Correct me where I might be wrong, but keep it factual, please. No rhetoric or speeches.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So as I understand it, this vaccine doesn't prevent a person from contracting any covid variant or spreading it. Right?

It's main claim to fame, which has been ratcheted down several times from what it was touted to be able to do when it first came out, is that supposedly one gets 'less sick' when they get covid. Right?

If I comprehend the current argument, the 'science' states that vaccinated people have significantly less chance of serious illness or complications from covid than non vaccinated people, right?

Unvaccinated people therefore have a higher chance of getting seriously ill from covid, even if they already had it, right?

Currently, the CDC does not recognize that having had covid gives you any natural immunity, right? So, does that rule out herd immunity for covid?

But there are a significant number of cases where people have had strong to severe reactions to receiving the vaccine, right?

If everyone is vaccinated, that doesn't mean the covid virus will just disappear from the face of the earth, right?

So it will still be around to infect people, maybe even mutate, even though everyone is vaccinated, right?

So, if someone chooses, for whatever reason, not to accept a foreign substance being injected into their body, they probably know, unless they are impaired, that they run a higher risk of getting seriously ill than if they did get the vaccine. But they have decided, for whatever reason, that risk is preferable to getting the vaccine, right?

Now if they do contract covid, they can certainly pass it on to someone else, whether that person is vaccinated or not, right?

And if that person is vaccinated, according to the current 'science', that person is as protected as they can be against covid, right?

So let me ask you, If covid will not go away, and you can get it even if you are vaccinated, why should you care if someone else exercises their freedom of choice and assumes the risk that if they get it, it will be more serious for them?

In other issues, don't pretty much the same people who advocate forcing everyone to inject a foreign substance into their bodies also proclaim 'Our Bodies, Our Choice'? I know it's a different circumstance, but does it not render that iconic phrase pointless unless it applies universally? Either we get to decide what we want to do or not to do with our own bodies, or we don't, right?

In America, is there any issue of this kind where 100% of the people will agree? And, if not, would you want to live in an America where the current party in power believes it has the right and authority to force every single person to do what they have determined is 'best'? Think about it.

I AM TALKING TO WEYOUN, NOT YOU. PLEASE RESPECT THAT AND DON'T PILE ON.

You asked me a question, then you completely change the scenario.

I gave you the answer to what you asked.

You then started making excuses for why you wouldn’t get vaccinated. As SSS points out, that’s pathetic of you. One of our board members died because he was chronically weak and no doubt got it from his community, which based on where he lived, is certainly full of antivaxx morons.

You guys keep tiptoeing around that. Spock is more worried about the case report of two dead teenage boys than someone he knew (though fascists are known for homoerotically exalting male youth and finding the infirmed inconvenient and disposable, so that is no surprise).

Unless you have herd immunity, third parties who are trying not to get sick still will get sick. I work at a hospital with a heavy emphasis in oncology. Half the patients in our ICU are the usual sort who weren’t vaccinated. The other half are vaccinated but they have some sort of hematological malignancy and are on chemotherapy and got it anyway. And there’s very little middle ground.

So, yes, the vaccine can mutate. But it’s more likely to mutate when it is successful and has more chances to replicate. That’s in the unvaccinated crowd. It’s also most likely to spread and sustain itself among unvaccinated people.

So the fact that there’s a theoretical chance it will always be around it doesn’t make much of a difference.

There’s also a theoretical reality that this will be a mild disease and five years from now, vaccines won’t regularly be needed. Great!

But that’s not what you asked. You asked what would happen if everyone today was vaccinated. I told you what is agreed upon among those who deal in this thing. I even told you politically something you would like to hear, namely, a return to normalcy.

But you’re not interested in that. You’re interested in basically having a tantrum because someone is telling you to do something that you didn’t have to do two years ago.

I don’t care about a scenario. I care about what is the appropriate thing to do right now.

T-Bone died. I would recommend everyone get boosted to prevent another tragedy. Instead, you are “well that might give the other party a political victory.”

That’s low quality of you. You act like a patriot, but you have no interest in this country’s success or your fellow Americans.

Beebs will pipe in that I must be a bad doctor, and tlynn will start braying, but the simple truth is this - you were asked to help and said No. It is incredibly telling that all these scenarios about “one party telling us all what to do” is your first thought - instead of simply wanting to help other human beings.

Your ignorance is truly impressive. You just skipped right over the part where Flick said he's fully vaxxed,
didn't you? And you think T-bone lived in the midst of a hotbed of anti-vaxxers? In New York? And you believe he and his loved ones were too stupid to keep him isolated?

To a person, the Covid-positive fatalities I have personal knowledge of are people who were fully vaxxed. Every. Single. One.

[flockofseagulls104]

Weyoun, and only weyoun please,

Tell me, what if we woke up tomorrow and everyone in the world was vaccinated. What would be different than today?

Relatively minimal risk of rapid disease transmission. Very minimal risk of many people getting sick and overwhelmed in the hospital.

In short, status quo antebellum.

No reason to wear a mask, except I would suggest doing that even during flu season if you’re coughing and ill.

Nothing should be locked down.

Just remember, the people who moan the loudest about shut downs are the ones who are doing the least to prevent things from getting back to normal.

It’s like they exist to complain

I will ignore your vitriolic and ignorant statement about who is moaning and preventing things from getting back to normal. It is unseemly coming from a doctor of medicine, IMO. Most of the people, including me, that I know of who reject lockdowns and federal government mandates are fully vaccinated. Including most of the truckers that are protesting. You are just spreading hatred, IMO.

This is what I understand at the present time. It has changed dramatically in the past couple years, but this is what I have heard recently. But I am not a medical professional, I can only speak to the information that has been presented to me, though much of it is contradictory. Correct me where I might be wrong, but keep it factual, please. No rhetoric or speeches.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So as I understand it, this vaccine doesn't prevent a person from contracting any covid variant or spreading it. Right?

It's main claim to fame, which has been ratcheted down several times from what it was touted to be able to do when it first came out, is that supposedly one gets 'less sick' when they get covid. Right?

If I comprehend the current argument, the 'science' states that vaccinated people have significantly less chance of serious illness or complications from covid than non vaccinated people, right?

Unvaccinated people therefore have a higher chance of getting seriously ill from covid, even if they already had it, right?

Currently, the CDC does not recognize that having had covid gives you any natural immunity, right? So, does that rule out herd immunity for covid?

But there are a significant number of cases where people have had strong to severe reactions to receiving the vaccine, right?

If everyone is vaccinated, that doesn't mean the covid virus will just disappear from the face of the earth, right?

So it will still be around to infect people, maybe even mutate, even though everyone is vaccinated, right?

So, if someone chooses, for whatever reason, not to accept a foreign substance being injected into their body, they probably know, unless they are impaired, that they run a higher risk of getting seriously ill than if they did get the vaccine. But they have decided, for whatever reason, that risk is preferable to getting the vaccine, right?

Now if they do contract covid, they can certainly pass it on to someone else, whether that person is vaccinated or not, right?

And if that person is vaccinated, according to the current 'science', that person is as protected as they can be against covid, right?

So let me ask you, If covid will not go away, and you can get it even if you are vaccinated, why should you care if someone else exercises their freedom of choice and assumes the risk that if they get it, it will be more serious for them?

In other issues, don't pretty much the same people who advocate forcing everyone to inject a foreign substance into their bodies also proclaim 'Our Bodies, Our Choice'? I know it's a different circumstance, but does it not render that iconic phrase pointless unless it applies universally? Either we get to decide what we want to do or not to do with our own bodies, or we don't, right?

In America, is there any issue of this kind where 100% of the people will agree? And, if not, would you want to live in an America where the current party in power believes it has the right and authority to force every single person to do what they have determined is 'best'? Think about it.

I AM TALKING TO WEYOUN, NOT YOU. PLEASE RESPECT THAT AND DON'T PILE ON.

The series of questions I asked were based on assumptions I make based on my current knowledge, trying to make sense of it FOR ME. I do not just take the general word of anyone or let other people do my thinking. I was also showing how I come to the conclusions about this issue that I do based on critical thinking. Now, if any of my assumptions turned out to be materially untrue, that might have an effect on my conclusions, and I asked you to correct any of them. I also asked you to be factual and not to include any rhetoric or speeches.
You did just that, and, as tlynn pointed out, you obviously didn't read or comprehend my post, because I stated that I am fully vaccinated including a booster.
You probably have a problem with my conclusions, and you could have stated why you think my conclusions are wrong, but you reacted belligerently. I hope you don't act that way with any of your patients when they do or say something you don't like.

[wbtravis007]

Relatively minimal risk of rapid disease transmission. Very minimal risk of many people getting sick and overwhelmed in the hospital.

In short, status quo antebellum.

No reason to wear a mask, except I would suggest doing that even during flu season if you’re coughing and ill.

Nothing should be locked down.

Just remember, the people who moan the loudest about shut downs are the ones who are doing the least to prevent things from getting back to normal.

It’s like they exist to complain

I will ignore your vitriolic and ignorant statement about who is moaning and preventing things from getting back to normal. It is unseemly coming from a doctor of medicine, IMO. Most of the people, including me, that I know of who reject lockdowns and federal government mandates are fully vaccinated. Including most of the truckers that are protesting. You are just spreading hatred, IMO.

This is what I understand at the present time. It has changed dramatically in the past couple years, but this is what I have heard recently. But I am not a medical professional, I can only speak to the information that has been presented to me, though much of it is contradictory. Correct me where I might be wrong, but keep it factual, please. No rhetoric or speeches.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So as I understand it, this vaccine doesn't prevent a person from contracting any covid variant or spreading it. Right?

It's main claim to fame, which has been ratcheted down several times from what it was touted to be able to do when it first came out, is that supposedly one gets 'less sick' when they get covid. Right?

If I comprehend the current argument, the 'science' states that vaccinated people have significantly less chance of serious illness or complications from covid than non vaccinated people, right?

Unvaccinated people therefore have a higher chance of getting seriously ill from covid, even if they already had it, right?

Currently, the CDC does not recognize that having had covid gives you any natural immunity, right? So, does that rule out herd immunity for covid?

But there are a significant number of cases where people have had strong to severe reactions to receiving the vaccine, right?

If everyone is vaccinated, that doesn't mean the covid virus will just disappear from the face of the earth, right?

So it will still be around to infect people, maybe even mutate, even though everyone is vaccinated, right?

So, if someone chooses, for whatever reason, not to accept a foreign substance being injected into their body, they probably know, unless they are impaired, that they run a higher risk of getting seriously ill than if they did get the vaccine. But they have decided, for whatever reason, that risk is preferable to getting the vaccine, right?

Now if they do contract covid, they can certainly pass it on to someone else, whether that person is vaccinated or not, right?

And if that person is vaccinated, according to the current 'science', that person is as protected as they can be against covid, right?

So let me ask you, If covid will not go away, and you can get it even if you are vaccinated, why should you care if someone else exercises their freedom of choice and assumes the risk that if they get it, it will be more serious for them?

In other issues, don't pretty much the same people who advocate forcing everyone to inject a foreign substance into their bodies also proclaim 'Our Bodies, Our Choice'? I know it's a different circumstance, but does it not render that iconic phrase pointless unless it applies universally? Either we get to decide what we want to do or not to do with our own bodies, or we don't, right?

In America, is there any issue of this kind where 100% of the people will agree? And, if not, would you want to live in an America where the current party in power believes it has the right and authority to force every single person to do what they have determined is 'best'? Think about it.

I AM TALKING TO WEYOUN, NOT YOU. PLEASE RESPECT THAT AND DON'T PILE ON.

The series of questions I asked were based on assumptions I make based on my current knowledge, trying to make sense of it FOR ME. I do not just take the general word of anyone or let other people do my thinking. I was also showing how I come to the conclusions about this issue that I do based on critical thinking. Now, if any of my assumptions turned out to be materially untrue, that might have an effect on my conclusions, and I asked you to correct any of them. I also asked you to be factual and not to include any rhetoric or speeches.
You did just that, and, as tlynn pointed out, you obviously didn't read or comprehend my post, because I stated that I am fully vaccinated including a booster.
You probably have a problem with my conclusions, and you could have stated why you think my conclusions are wrong, but you reacted belligerently. I hope you don't act that way with any of your patients when they do or say something you don't like.

You have no idea how insufferable you are in so many ways, do you?

[flockofseagulls104]

So let me ask you, If covid will not go away, and you can get it even if you are vaccinated, why should you care if someone else exercises their freedom of choice and assumes the risk that if they get it, it will be more serious for them?

Flock, do you remember T-Bone?

He's a reason why I care if someone else exercises their freedom of choice. It hurts to think that the person who passed COVID along to T-Bone may well have been one of those people who exercised their freedom of choice. Because everyone who is vaccinated reduces the chances of getting it and spreading it. It's not perfect, but it's better than not having the vaccine. And those people who do wind up contracting a serious case clog up hospitals and make it more difficult for others to get treatment.

You're also a day late and a dollar short about mandating vaccines. Every state in the US mandates vaccines for various diseases for children. Some of them mandate vaccines for college students or for specific vocations. And it's not just vaccines. Almost every state mandates wearing safety belts. Many states mandate wearing motorcycle helmets.

And I don't care who you addressed your question to originally.

Again, I specifically addressed this post to Weyoun,and nobody else, since he is a physician and presumably has better knowledge on the subject than I do, or you do.
Yes, this is an open forum, but think of it as a town hall meeting and you are the host. Someone asks you a question and you try and answer them, but several rowdy and inconsiderate people from the audience just stand up and start yelling at you and your questioner, and the question never gets answered. It is drowned out by these rude and inconsiderate people who have their own agenda.
Sure, you can be rude and inconsiderate, that's you choice. But you sure don't contribute to anything constructive by doing it.

[flockofseagulls104]

I will ignore your vitriolic and ignorant statement about who is moaning and preventing things from getting back to normal. It is unseemly coming from a doctor of medicine, IMO. Most of the people, including me, that I know of who reject lockdowns and federal government mandates are fully vaccinated. Including most of the truckers that are protesting. You are just spreading hatred, IMO.

This is what I understand at the present time. It has changed dramatically in the past couple years, but this is what I have heard recently. But I am not a medical professional, I can only speak to the information that has been presented to me, though much of it is contradictory. Correct me where I might be wrong, but keep it factual, please. No rhetoric or speeches.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So as I understand it, this vaccine doesn't prevent a person from contracting any covid variant or spreading it. Right?

It's main claim to fame, which has been ratcheted down several times from what it was touted to be able to do when it first came out, is that supposedly one gets 'less sick' when they get covid. Right?

If I comprehend the current argument, the 'science' states that vaccinated people have significantly less chance of serious illness or complications from covid than non vaccinated people, right?

Unvaccinated people therefore have a higher chance of getting seriously ill from covid, even if they already had it, right?

Currently, the CDC does not recognize that having had covid gives you any natural immunity, right? So, does that rule out herd immunity for covid?

But there are a significant number of cases where people have had strong to severe reactions to receiving the vaccine, right?

If everyone is vaccinated, that doesn't mean the covid virus will just disappear from the face of the earth, right?

So it will still be around to infect people, maybe even mutate, even though everyone is vaccinated, right?

So, if someone chooses, for whatever reason, not to accept a foreign substance being injected into their body, they probably know, unless they are impaired, that they run a higher risk of getting seriously ill than if they did get the vaccine. But they have decided, for whatever reason, that risk is preferable to getting the vaccine, right?

Now if they do contract covid, they can certainly pass it on to someone else, whether that person is vaccinated or not, right?

And if that person is vaccinated, according to the current 'science', that person is as protected as they can be against covid, right?

So let me ask you, If covid will not go away, and you can get it even if you are vaccinated, why should you care if someone else exercises their freedom of choice and assumes the risk that if they get it, it will be more serious for them?

In other issues, don't pretty much the same people who advocate forcing everyone to inject a foreign substance into their bodies also proclaim 'Our Bodies, Our Choice'? I know it's a different circumstance, but does it not render that iconic phrase pointless unless it applies universally? Either we get to decide what we want to do or not to do with our own bodies, or we don't, right?

In America, is there any issue of this kind where 100% of the people will agree? And, if not, would you want to live in an America where the current party in power believes it has the right and authority to force every single person to do what they have determined is 'best'? Think about it.

I AM TALKING TO WEYOUN, NOT YOU. PLEASE RESPECT THAT AND DON'T PILE ON.

The series of questions I asked were based on assumptions I make based on my current knowledge, trying to make sense of it FOR ME. I do not just take the general word of anyone or let other people do my thinking. I was also showing how I come to the conclusions about this issue that I do based on critical thinking. Now, if any of my assumptions turned out to be materially untrue, that might have an effect on my conclusions, and I asked you to correct any of them. I also asked you to be factual and not to include any rhetoric or speeches.
You did just that, and, as tlynn pointed out, you obviously didn't read or comprehend my post, because I stated that I am fully vaccinated including a booster.
You probably have a problem with my conclusions, and you could have stated why you think my conclusions are wrong, but you reacted belligerently. I hope you don't act that way with any of your patients when they do or say something you don't like.

You have no idea how insufferable you are in so many ways, do you?

Well, just ignore me then.

[tlynn78]

I will ignore your vitriolic and ignorant statement about who is moaning and preventing things from getting back to normal. It is unseemly coming from a doctor of medicine, IMO. Most of the people, including me, that I know of who reject lockdowns and federal government mandates are fully vaccinated. Including most of the truckers that are protesting. You are just spreading hatred, IMO.

This is what I understand at the present time. It has changed dramatically in the past couple years, but this is what I have heard recently. But I am not a medical professional, I can only speak to the information that has been presented to me, though much of it is contradictory. Correct me where I might be wrong, but keep it factual, please. No rhetoric or speeches.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
So as I understand it, this vaccine doesn't prevent a person from contracting any covid variant or spreading it. Right?

It's main claim to fame, which has been ratcheted down several times from what it was touted to be able to do when it first came out, is that supposedly one gets 'less sick' when they get covid. Right?

If I comprehend the current argument, the 'science' states that vaccinated people have significantly less chance of serious illness or complications from covid than non vaccinated people, right?

Unvaccinated people therefore have a higher chance of getting seriously ill from covid, even if they already had it, right?

Currently, the CDC does not recognize that having had covid gives you any natural immunity, right? So, does that rule out herd immunity for covid?

But there are a significant number of cases where people have had strong to severe reactions to receiving the vaccine, right?

If everyone is vaccinated, that doesn't mean the covid virus will just disappear from the face of the earth, right?

So it will still be around to infect people, maybe even mutate, even though everyone is vaccinated, right?

So, if someone chooses, for whatever reason, not to accept a foreign substance being injected into their body, they probably know, unless they are impaired, that they run a higher risk of getting seriously ill than if they did get the vaccine. But they have decided, for whatever reason, that risk is preferable to getting the vaccine, right?

Now if they do contract covid, they can certainly pass it on to someone else, whether that person is vaccinated or not, right?

And if that person is vaccinated, according to the current 'science', that person is as protected as they can be against covid, right?

So let me ask you, If covid will not go away, and you can get it even if you are vaccinated, why should you care if someone else exercises their freedom of choice and assumes the risk that if they get it, it will be more serious for them?

In other issues, don't pretty much the same people who advocate forcing everyone to inject a foreign substance into their bodies also proclaim 'Our Bodies, Our Choice'? I know it's a different circumstance, but does it not render that iconic phrase pointless unless it applies universally? Either we get to decide what we want to do or not to do with our own bodies, or we don't, right?

In America, is there any issue of this kind where 100% of the people will agree? And, if not, would you want to live in an America where the current party in power believes it has the right and authority to force every single person to do what they have determined is 'best'? Think about it.

I AM TALKING TO WEYOUN, NOT YOU. PLEASE RESPECT THAT AND DON'T PILE ON.

The series of questions I asked were based on assumptions I make based on my current knowledge, trying to make sense of it FOR ME. I do not just take the general word of anyone or let other people do my thinking. I was also showing how I come to the conclusions about this issue that I do based on critical thinking. Now, if any of my assumptions turned out to be materially untrue, that might have an effect on my conclusions, and I asked you to correct any of them. I also asked you to be factual and not to include any rhetoric or speeches.
You did just that, and, as tlynn pointed out, you obviously didn't read or comprehend my post, because I stated that I am fully vaccinated including a booster.
You probably have a problem with my conclusions, and you could have stated why you think my conclusions are wrong, but you reacted belligerently. I hope you don't act that way with any of your patients when they do or say something you don't like.

You have no idea how insufferable you are in so many ways, do you?

[silverscreenselect]

T-Bone didn't die of COVID. But I don't have the slightest doubt that he would be with us today if he hadn't contracted COVID. And that's what I've said to Spock for over a year now whenever he trots out his nonsense about how everyone who's dying has co-morbidities. We all have co-morbidities. Many of us live for decades with them given proper medical treatment. Unless COVID cuts that short.

I don't know how many people T-girl has met who have died from COVID. But I'm sure that Weyoun has met a whole lot more of them in his practice, and when he says that the ones in the hospital and presumably dying haven't been vaccinated, I'd give that a lot more weight than whatever anecdotal evidence someone on the Bored trots out.

I'm sure that T-Bone and his family took every precaution they could. But unless he lived in a hermetically sealed and isolated capsule for the last two years, he was exposed to people. And one of those people passed it on to him. And someone passed it on to them. And the more unvaccinated people that each person in that chain was exposed to, the greater the odds of passing it on. It's a matter of percentages, not certainties. In medicine, there are few if any certainties other than that we will all die eventually. But the anti-vax crowd plays games with these percentages by downplaying the proven effectiveness of the vaccine and exaggerating the likelihood of every adverse reaction that's been reported. That's the equivalent of me planning my retirement by buying lottery tickets instead of investing. After all, the stock market could go down and just last week somebody won $500 million in the Powerball.

[themanintheseersuckersuit]

My younger brother died 1/4/20 of a respiratory illness that was not C-19, who of you is responsible for that?

[themanintheseersuckersuit]

I really just stopped by to see if C-19 was still a crisis

[silverscreenselect]

In America, is there any issue of this kind where 100% of the people will agree? And, if not, would you want to live in an America where the current party in power believes it has the right and authority to force every single person to do what they have determined is 'best'? Think about it.

Flock, you've been living in a country where the current party in power believes it has the right and authority to force every single person to do what they have determined is best your entire life. Have you ever heard of a criminal code? Or a traffic code? Or a building code?

A lot of people disagree about what's a safe speed to drive on our highways. But we set speed limits and live with them or face the consequences. You're taking something you've lived with your entire life and turn it into a sinister left-wing plot on one particular issue which impacts the PUBLIC health and safety of us all a lot more than most issues.