Afghans and Homosexuality

[Spock]

Why would we be surprised if the Orlando shooter was a homosexual? It kind of goes with the territory in the Afghan culture. The men there really tend to "Like" their boys.

James Michener wrote about the Afghan males' fondness for Dancing Boys decades ago in Caravans.

There are numerous reports of our troops running into the rape of boys in Afghanistan (and other Muslim countries?) and being ordered to ignore it.

Frontline did a 2009 story on the Dancing Boys.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/dancingboys/

I can't find the book right now but John Masters wrote a memoir of his time on Northwest Frontier (Pakistan/Afghanistan border area) prior to WW2 calles "Bugles and a Tiger".

A quote from these pre-PC days in the book is that they liked to say that the Afghan male view of life was that "Women are for business, Boys are for Pleasure." I suspect that the quote was grounded in truth.

[Bob78164]

Why would we be surprised if the Orlando shooter was a homosexual? It kind of goes with the territory in the Afghan culture. The men there really tend to "Like" their boys.

James Michener wrote about the Afghan males' fondness for Dancing Boys decades ago in Caravans.

There are numerous reports of our troops running into the rape of boys in Afghanistan (and other Muslim countries?) and being ordered to ignore it.

Frontline did a 2009 story on the Dancing Boys.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/dancingboys/

I can't find the book right now but John Masters wrote a memoir of his time on Northwest Frontier (Pakistan/Afghanistan border area) prior to WW2 calles "Bugles and a Tiger".

A quote from these pre-PC days in the book is that they liked to say that the Afghan male view of life was that "Women are for business, Boys are for Pleasure." I suspect that the quote was grounded in truth.

You do realize the the Orlando shooter was a native-born American citizen? --Bob

[Estonut]

Why would we be surprised if the Orlando shooter was a homosexual? It kind of goes with the territory in the Afghan culture. The men there really tend to "Like" their boys.

James Michener wrote about the Afghan males' fondness for Dancing Boys decades ago in Caravans.

There are numerous reports of our troops running into the rape of boys in Afghanistan (and other Muslim countries?) and being ordered to ignore it.

Frontline did a 2009 story on the Dancing Boys.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/dancingboys/

I can't find the book right now but John Masters wrote a memoir of his time on Northwest Frontier (Pakistan/Afghanistan border area) prior to WW2 calles "Bugles and a Tiger".

A quote from these pre-PC days in the book is that they liked to say that the Afghan male view of life was that "Women are for business, Boys are for Pleasure." I suspect that the quote was grounded in truth.

You do realize the the Orlando shooter was a native-born American citizen?

He is first-generation Afghan-American. Do you think that since he was born here, he was insulated from the Afghan culture?

[silverscreenselect]

Why would we be surprised if the Orlando shooter was a homosexual? It kind of goes with the territory in the Afghan culture. The men there really tend to "Like" their boys.

Pederasty is not the same as homosexuality. I doubt this guy's father pimped him out when he was young. If the father abused him, that would certainly contribute to his mental instability, but he wouldn't react by seeking out adult male partners.

[bazodee]

I think you're all just way off base here. This has nothing to do with Afghan tribal customs.

He was gay (or on the gay spectrum), just as a certain percentage of any population is. Like so many others, whether they be Anglo, Latino, Roman Catholic, Mormon, Christian fundamentalist, he was extremely distressed that his own internal preferences didn't line up with what he perceived as the norms of his native culture. Made worse when the norms of his culture are not that same as the norms of the culture in which he resides.

Nowadays many guys in this position will finally decide to live as they want (some of them will come out publicly, others don't); others find ways of accommodating their preferences within their religion/culture; and others live horribly tormented lives fighting it. And an extremely small number conclude that they need to lash out at these liberal norms, thinking that will purify them and make them right with their God.

[Estonut]

Pederasty is not the same as homosexuality.

It is most certainly a subset.

[silverscreenselect]

Pederasty is not the same as homosexuality.

It is most certainly a subset.

That's like saying that rape is a subset of heterosexuality.

Pederasty is more about exerting power over a younger person than about an attraction for the same sex. In today's society, pederasts are often married and have no desire to engage in homosexual relations with other adults on an "even keel." It's the same as a large part of the homosexuality in prison, a matter of establishing dominance and a "pecking order."

[BackInTex]

It's the same as a large part of the homosexuality in prison, a matter of establishing dominance and a "peckering order."

fixed it for you.

[OJ Simpson]

It's the same as a large part of the homosexuality in prison, a matter of establishing dominance and a "peckering order."

fixed it for you.

I'm always on the lookout for the real peckers...

[Spock]

Why would we be surprised if the Orlando shooter was a homosexual? It kind of goes with the territory in the Afghan culture. The men there really tend to "Like" their boys.

Pederasty is not the same as homosexuality. I doubt this guy's father pimped him out when he was young. If the father abused him, that would certainly contribute to his mental instability, but he wouldn't react by seeking out adult male partners.

Can you really describe the guys who frequented Pulse as "Adult Males". I can see how a young Afghan (yes, I get that he was born here) male might be drawn to a club full of less-than-masculine, young-looking "Dancing Boys."

[Spock]

SSS>>>Pederasty is more about exerting power over a younger person than about an attraction for the same sex. In today's society, pederasts are often married and have no desire to engage in homosexual relations with other adults on an "even keel." It's the same as a large part of the homosexuality in prison, a matter of establishing dominance and a "pecking order."<<<

Maybe pederasty is so dominant in Afghanistan, and in other Islamic countries, that the anger of the young males is partially driven by having been used in that fashion. Maybe pederasty and Islam can't be separated as a driver of terrorism because they are so intertwined.

The reports of child(boy) rape in European migrant centers indicate that this is a problem in other countries besides Afghanistan.

[silverscreenselect]

Can you really describe the guys who frequented Pulse as "Adult Males". I can see how a young Afghan (yes, I get that he was born here) male might be drawn to a club full of less-than-masculine, young-looking "Dancing Boys."

Spock, these guys may have been dancing, but they aren't "dancing boys." They are (or sadly were) adult men. The entire point of the dancing boy culture is to force pre-teen and adolescent boys (without facial or body hair) to dress and dance as girls and frequently be abused. It's an entire fetishistic ritual, the whole point of which is to dehumanize and exert control over the victim.

And child sexual abuse, of both boys and girls, is a problem in a whole lot of countries and a whole lot of cultures, not just Islamic ones. Just look at the Catholic Church or Jared Fogle. Being molested often turns its victims into molesters themselves when they get older.

What bazodee indicated in his post is a far more likely scenario. A man growing up in a fundamentalist religious culture who couldn't come to terms with his attraction to other men. He was so desparate to be identified as a terrorist rather than a gay man that he repeatedly called up 911 and others claiming solidarity with various terror groups that are completely at odds with each other (contrary to what Donald Trump and the Republicans would have you believe, "radical Islam" is not a single monolithic army of fanatics, but a number of different groups that often hate each other as much as they hate the west).

[Spock]

I am a huge fan of Mark Steyn and the following is taken from "America Alone".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
After the Sepoy Mutiny of 1857, William Tayler wrote:

"With the Soonnees the Wahabees are on terms of tolerable agreement, though differing on certain points, but from the Sheahs, they differ radically, and their hatred, like all religious hatred, is bitter and intolerant. But the most striking characteristic of the Wahabee sect, and that which principally concerns this narrative, is the entire subservience which they yield to the Peer, or spiritual guide."

Mr. Tayler, a minor civil servant in Bengal, was a genuine “multiculturalist.” Although he regarded his own culture as superior, he was engaged enough by the ways of others to study the differences between them. By contrast, contemporary multiculturalism absolves one from knowing anything about other cultures as long as one feels warm and fluffy toward them. After all, if it’s grossly judgmental to say one culture’s better than another, why bother learning about the differences? “Celebrate diversity” with a uniformity of ignorance. Had William Tayler been around when the Islamification of the West got under way and you’d said to him there was a mosque opening down the street, he’d have wanted to know: What kind of mosque? Who’s the imam? What branch of Islam? Old-school imperialists could never get away with the feel-good condescension of PC progressives.

Steyn, Mark. America Alone: The End of the World As We Know It (p. 71)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

From Spock now.
As this has developed, I think we are seeing a textbook case of how, as Steyn says-““contemporary multiculturalism absolves one from knowing anything about other cultures as long as one feels warm and fluffy toward them.”

Those that want to absolve Islam from this, are focusing on the Orlando shooter’s possible homosexual acts from a western perspective. He was a self-loathing homosexual-etc etc. They also tend to fit him into conservative Christian thought.

However, we only know of 2 cultural influences in Mateen's life. Afghan culture, and whatever that may mean, and his recent forays into radical Islamic mosques and teachings that support the murder of homosexuals.

Any attempts to place him into "Redneck" culture (for lack of a better term) are based on nothing. The perfect example of what I am talking about is taken from a very liberal Facebook Friend.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
"You weren't the gunman, but you didn't want to see gays kissing in public. You weren't the gunman, but you don't like gay characters on TV. You weren't the gunman, but you think gay people need saving.

You weren't the gunman, but you were upset when gay people earned the right to marry. You weren't the gunman, but you use gay slurs in public. You weren't the gunman, but you would vote against legal protections for gay people.

You weren't the gunman, but you are the culture that built him. Your the bullets in his gun."
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

The poster of the above quote would describe herself as a strong advocate of multi-culturalism. However, she can only see the gunman from a western liberal perspective.She can not even begin to grasp the concept that the dominant cultural influences in his life may be outside her understanding and frames of reference. I strongly submit that the culture she blames is not the culture that built him. He was built from some combination of the Afghan/Islamic culture.

[silverscreenselect]

However, we only know of 2 cultural influences in Mateen's life. Afghan culture, and whatever that may mean, and his recent forays into radical Islamic mosques and teachings that support the murder of homosexuals.

Well, how about the statements from numerous witnesses that he was a semi-regular at that Pulse nightclub, even though it was 100 miles away from where he lived, and that he was a member of gay dating sites? That's a pretty big "cultural influence" in his life.

The company that runs the gay dating app site that Mateen took part in has offered to provide what information they have about him to the FBI, but apparently, unless there's no way to tell who he is unless the FBI releases that information.

He was far more willing to have people think he died a jihadist than a homosexual.

[BackInTex]

contrary to what Donald Trump and the Republicans would have you believe, "radical Islam" is not a single monolithic army of fanatics, but a number of different groups that often hate each other as much as they hate the west.

Please! To quote your queen "At this point, what difference does it make?!"

You're in a jungle and there are "wild dangerous animals". Some are lions, some tigers, some bears, and some Culex mosquitoes.

The fact that they are similar but hate and perhaps feed upon each other doesn't make them less dangerous to us.

[Bob78164]

contrary to what Donald Trump and the Republicans would have you believe, "radical Islam" is not a single monolithic army of fanatics, but a number of different groups that often hate each other as much as they hate the west.

Please! To quote your queen "At this point, what difference does it make?!"

You're in a jungle and there are "wild dangerous animals". Some are lions, some tigers, some bears, and some Culex mosquitoes.

The fact that they are similar but hate and perhaps feed upon each other doesn't make them less dangerous to us.

Here's the problem. Groups like ISIS are trying to sell the canard that they speak for Islam. Their purpose is propaganda -- they want to normalize their views among Islam itself, just as gay-hating asshats like the Westboro Baptist Church want to tar all of Christianity with their noxious brand of prejudice, hoping to stoke more incidents like this guy may have been trying to pull off.

If we refer to these armed bullies as "radical Islamists" merely because they co-opt the name of Islam as an excuse for their hatred and violence, we give them a propaganda victory for no reason at all. I refuse to help them. --Bob

[silverscreenselect]

The fact that they are similar but hate and perhaps feed upon each other doesn't make them less dangerous to us.

No, but it does affect the best way to deal with them.

Our policy in the Middle East has far too often been to deal with the immediate problem, only to find ourselves with a worse problem five to ten years down the road. Trying to turn the entire Middle East into an Us vs. Them (conveniently labeled "Islamic terrorists") scenario is going to drive a lot more young Muslims into the "them" camp. The real terrorists want to turn this conflict into a holy war and people like Donald Trump are doing their best to oblige them. And, in case you haven't noticed, the U.S. is ill equipped to fight a holy war against a billion Muslims.

[silverscreenselect]

If we refer to these armed bullies as "radical Islamists" merely because they co-opt the name of Islam as an excuse for their hatred and violence, we give them a propaganda victory for no reason at all. I refuse to help them. --Bob

I'm no fan of Obama, but his speech yesterday really nailed it and showed just how silly the Republican response to this situation has been. Hillary, Obama, our military, and our intelligence gathering organizations are well aware of who the enemy is overseas. You can certainly take issue with their tactics, but you can't claim that we're doing nothing because we refuse to name them. But that and banning the immigration of Muslims are the only solutions you hear out of Trump et al. Heaven forbid we try to limit their access to assault rifles that allow them or anyone with a grudge to shoot over 100 people in a night club.

Despite what some people think, we're in a constant battle with ISIS and al Qaeda and every other fringe group for the hearts and minds of young Muslims and others who might convert to Islam in this country. Richard Reid, the would-be shoe bomber was born to a white mother and a Jamaican father and converted to Islam in his 20's. John Walker Lindh is white and converted to Islam as a teenager before going to Afghanistan. When Trump says "radical Islam," what they hear is "Islam" and it makes them more susceptible to the notion that the solution to whatever grudge they have against this country is these terrorist groups.

According to a new CBS poll, Americans disapproved of Trump's response to the shooting by a 2 to 1 margin, while approving of Obama's response.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/p ... nse-224367

[Spock]

However, we only know of 2 cultural influences in Mateen's life. Afghan culture, and whatever that may mean, and his recent forays into radical Islamic mosques and teachings that support the murder of homosexuals.

Well, how about the statements from numerous witnesses that he was a semi-regular at that Pulse nightclub, even though it was 100 miles away from where he lived, and that he was a member of gay dating sites? That's a pretty big "cultural influence" in his life.

The company that runs the gay dating app site that Mateen took part in has offered to provide what information they have about him to the FBI, but apparently, unless there's no way to tell who he is unless the FBI releases that information.

He was far more willing to have people think he died a jihadist than a homosexual.

I accept your point that homosexuality was a major cultural influence in his life. However, to cut the Gordian Knot-the most likely source of his revulsion (If his father was not lying about that) at seeing 2 men kissing is related to the teachings of his Imam. Anything else, would be a stretch. Any self-loathing he may have had comes from Islam and not from hanging out with Christian conservatives who are not happy about Gay Marriage.

[Spock]

You do realize the the Orlando shooter was a native-born American citizen? --Bob

What is your point, exactly? It is widely reported, and is especially notable in Europe, that the second/third generations of Muslim immigrants(and those who came as small children) are much more radicalized and insular than their parents or grandparents are/were. For example, the London Tube bombers etc.

Europe, which is several years ahead of us on Muslim immigration, is smack dab in the middle of 2nd/3rd generation problems. It appears from recent events (not only Orlando) that we may be catching up in that department.

Thank God, that our immigration policies were such that they let in Omar Mateen's father. That family has contributed so much to our society.

I have never understood why the Left gives Islam a complete pass on everything. There have been long threads here about Christian bakers who don't want to bake cakes for Gay weddings.

Are there any examples of Gay activists going to Muslim bakers in Dearborn, Michigan and fully pursuing the legal trail when they refuse. Probably not, everybody just seems to give the Muslims their space on that.

[BackInTex]

Are there any examples of Gay activists going to Muslim bakers in Dearborn, Michigan and fully pursuing the legal trail when they refuse. Probably not, everybody just seems to give the Muslims their space on that.

Well of course not. They see what happens when you piss of a Muslim. Yet, try to piss of Christians and they just do what Chic-fil-a did, open up their kitchens on their traditional day of closure and provide free food to those donating blood.

[Bob78164]

I have never understood why the Left gives Islam a complete pass on everything. There have been long threads here about Christian bakers who don't want to bake cakes for Gay weddings.

I don't blame the entire Christian faith for the actions of some intolerant idiots. Including the idiot who blew up the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City, the idiot who went into a church to shoot a doctor in cold blood because he provided abortions, the idiot they just caught in Los Angeles with a car full of weapons and the makings of explosives . . . .

There's no way to stop dangerous idiots from claiming fealty to a name. That doesn't mean they're right to do so. And it certainly doesn't mean we have to buy into their propaganda, much less help them sell it to the rest of the world. --Bob

[Estonut]

Pederasty is not the same as homosexuality.

It is most certainly a subset.

That's like saying that rape is a subset of heterosexuality.

Pederasty is more about exerting power over a younger person than about an attraction for the same sex. In today's society, pederasts are often married and have no desire to engage in homosexual relations with other adults on an "even keel." It's the same as a large part of the homosexuality in prison, a matter of establishing dominance and a "pecking order."

Perhaps you have real-life experience with this. I looked it up in 3 on-line dictionaries and all three define it as a man who has sexual relations with a (minor) boy. If it is "more about exerting power over a younger person," then why doesn't the definition cover assaults against minor females?

[BackInTex]

I don't blame the entire Christian faith for the actions of some intolerant idiots. Including the idiot who blew up the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City, the idiot who went into a church to shoot a doctor in cold blood because he provided abortions, the idiot they just caught in Los Angeles with a car full of weapons and the makings of explosives . . . .

We've been through this before. Timothy McVeigh did not blow up the Murrah building in the name of Jesus Christ or for religious reasons. As far as James Wesley Howell goes, I've seen nothing indicating that his intentions were of a religious nature, nor what religion he may be.

You are such a religious bigot assuming a white-non Hispanic person from the mid-west trying to harm someone must be a Christian. I've read that he was troubled and gay (yes gay).

[Bob78164]

I don't blame the entire Christian faith for the actions of some intolerant idiots. Including the idiot who blew up the Murrah Building in Oklahoma City, the idiot who went into a church to shoot a doctor in cold blood because he provided abortions, the idiot they just caught in Los Angeles with a car full of weapons and the makings of explosives . . . .

We've been through this before. Timothy McVeigh did not blow up the Murrah building in the name of Jesus Christ or for religious reasons. As far as James Wesley Howell goes, I've seen nothing indicating that his intentions were of a religious nature, nor what religion he may be.

You are such a religious bigot assuming a white-non Hispanic person from the mid-west trying to harm someone must be a Christian. I've read that he was troubled and gay (yes gay).

In this country, where the Santa Monica idiot was born and raised, the vast majority of people heaping calumny on the LGBTQ community have done so in the name of Christianity.

And I notice that you ignored the terrorist who walked into a church to shoot a doctor in cold blood for reasons that were self-evidently religious. Not to mention the Westboro Baptist Church.

My point isn't that Christianity is evil. It's that these evil people who claim to act in the name of Christianity no more represent that faith than the Orlando idiot actually represents the Islamic faith. So I refuse to assist ISIS with its propaganda campaign to the contrary.

And by the way, the Orlando idiot apparently had profiles up on gay dating sites. So maybe he wasn't Islamic after all. Makes as much sense as saying that the Santa Monica idiot wasn't Christian because he may have been gay. --Bob