A Good Guy with a Gun

[BackInTex]

If I had a gun when I was robbed, I might have saved myself $60 that night. Or I might have gotten killed. I don't think it's worth risking my life over $60.

Maybe. And maybe you would have prevented 200 other people from getting robbed or killed.

[silverscreenselect]

If I had a gun when I was robbed, I might have saved myself $60 that night. Or I might have gotten killed. I don't think it's worth risking my life over $60.

Maybe. And maybe you would have prevented 200 other people from getting robbed or killed.

And that's assuming that I was able to subdue two armed teenagers, one of whom already had his weapon drawn.

[silverscreenselect]

A friend's brother is an Los Angeles County Deputy and morale there is shot. They are hated and they know it. He is close to retirement or he would leave. My friend's son is a newly minted and trained police officer and his uncle has told him-"Don't come out here."

Morale tends to go down at many businesses when their boss starts requiring them to do their job the way it's supposed to be done instead of any way that's convenient for them.

[Bob78164]

I'm sure this clerk saw great utility in his firearm.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... story.html

That's one way to look at it. Another way is that he risked his life for whatever was in the cash register. Because when you've got multiple people holding guns and the shooting starts, anything can happen.

If you came home and found your house on fire, would you run in to try to carry out a couple of hundred dollars in cash or a few bottles of liquor (which is probably what was in the liquor store till)?

If I had a gun when I was robbed, I might have saved myself $60 that night. Or I might have gotten killed. I don't think it's worth risking my life over $60.

His life and the life of anyone else who happened to be in the line of fire. --Bob

[SportsFan68]

I was kind of hoping that somebody would say something like this. Yes, I agree 100% with you that most people could buy meat (or raise it) cheaper than it costs to hunt it.
1) The extra money is obviously circulating in the economy providing jobs/conservation department funding etc.

2) Of the 5 people in my house, 3 of us prefer venison hamburgers to beef hamburgers. Yes, that costs more, but maybe it could be compared to choose buying expensive cuts of meat to cheap cuts. In essence, I can afford to pay for quality and I am also paying for recreation with my food dollars. Or better stated, I am getting some food with my recreation/tourism dollars.

3)Because of the ever more increasing focus on local and sustainable foods; there is a small, but growing, subset of adults who are coming to hunting for the "Foodie" aspect of it.

4) I fear for conservation in this country when the current generations (with no grounding in the land) and country kids are just as mesmorized by those damn screens as any other kids. One of the sporting newspaper that I get often carries exit interviews with retiring goverment conservation folks and they are scared to death of how few kids they see outside.

One story that has always stuck with me was when one interviewee talked about what you would have seen on a flight over lake country 40 years ago.....Over there would have been a group of 12-year olds building a raft....Over here there would have been a couple of 14 year olds taking out the old rowboat etc, etc


Sprots-there is a 3-book series by Clinton's Sec of interior(A pretty hard-bitten guy) that I have on my list and it is jumping up all the time. You might want to look at it. Sprots and me are obviously mostly political opposites, but I would imagine that we are both strongly opposed to turning federal lands over to the states, etc.

http://www.amazon.com/Forks-Trail-Conse ... +the+trail

#1 -- No argument. #2 -- I agree -- I prefer elk to any other red meat. I won't eat venison, mostly because around here it acquires a dreadful gamey taste from all the sage they eat. #3 -- I fervently hope so. #4 -- "Scared to death" describes exactly how I see this. The reason many Colorado counties grew so much in the last four decades is because of the allure of the outdoors lifestyle. And yet, youth baseball leagues have fewer participants now, even though there are more children living here -- very scary. A little of it is explained by youth soccer -- very little. Those participation rates have held steady. If soccer had attracted all the baseball kids, it would have grown.

Thanks for the tip on the Forks in the Trail book. I'll probably read it this summer in Alaska.

Actually, Spock, I believe we are very similar in our political beliefs. However, what I also believe is that you probably vote in opposition to your beliefs. I believe you are a conservationist, even an environmentalist. I think Theodore Roosevelt would be your perfect candidate. One of my Dem friends is doing his best to convince me that he would be my perfect candidate as well; that the Republicans were totally correct in throwing him out because he was really a Democrat. I doubt we can come to resolution about that here. I don't doubt that we are politically more in agreement than we realize even though our voting records don't reflect it.

[Spock]

Sprots>>>Actually, Spock, I believe we are very similar in our political beliefs. However, what I also believe is that you probably vote in opposition to your beliefs. I believe you are a conservationist, even an environmentalist. I think Theodore Roosevelt would be your perfect candidate. One of my Dem friends is doing his best to convince me that he would be my perfect candidate as well; that the Republicans were totally correct in throwing him out because he was really a Democrat. I doubt we can come to resolution about that here. I don't doubt that we are politically more in agreement than we realize even though our voting records don't reflect it.<<<<

Well said.

Tony Dean is/was a well-known outdoors writer who died a few years ago. IIRC-he was a Republican for most of his life-but, in later years, habitat issues and so forth caused him to say that the best option was to go the Conservative Democrat route. I don't totally disagree with that.

But Blue-dog Democrats are pretty rare nowadays and have little or no power at the national level. And for me-choosing between the National Republicans and National Democrats is a no-brainer-Obviously, I have to come down on the Republican side.

[ten96lt]

I'm sure this clerk saw great utility in his firearm.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/loca ... story.html

That's one way to look at it. Another way is that he risked his life for whatever was in the cash register. Because when you've got multiple people holding guns and the shooting starts, anything can happen.

If you came home and found your house on fire, would you run in to try to carry out a couple of hundred dollars in cash or a few bottles of liquor (which is probably what was in the liquor store till)?

If I had a gun when I was robbed, I might have saved myself $60 that night. Or I might have gotten killed. I don't think it's worth risking my life over $60.

You're assuming the robber isn't going to kill the victim after the robbery. If the guy has his gun drawn at you, you have to assume he's going to use it against you. I'd rather not risk he's going to simply walk out with $60 and leave witnesses.

Your fire analogy is completely apples and oranges.

[themanintheseersuckersuit]

http://www.wmbfnews.com/story/31036728/ ... wp-holders

I thought he was gonna shoot me in the back of my head

[Spock]

It is interesting that SSS never informs us of, say, the 4YO girl shot in a driveby in Detroit. I wonder why that could be.

Just for fun looked at some numbers.

There are about 100,000 people in Flint, Michigan and there were 66 murders there in 2012.

North Dakota had 25 murders in 2012 (this seems a little higher than some years-the extra is driven by the Bakken boom.) 2012 population is about 700,000.

South Dakota had 23 murders in 2012 and a 2012 population of about 830,000.

Wyoming had 21 murders in 2012 and a 2012 population of 576,000.

Combined 2.1 million people with 69 murders VS 66 murders in a city with 100,000 people(Flint). I can guarantee that there are far more guns per capita in ND/SD and Wyo than there are in Flint. Gee, do you think maybe social factors might be a little more of a problem than guns.

I know SSS is not very good at granularity, but I strongly suspect that if I dug into the data that the Indian Reservations in the 3 northern plains states would account for a highly disproportionate share of the murders there. Once again-Social factors, not guns.

Train of thought question-I wonder how many of Wyomings' murders might be tied to the huge tourism component (far outnumbering the residents) and the very busy I80 traversing a lightly populated state.

[silverscreenselect]

Wyoming had 21 murders in 2012 and a 2012 population of 576,000.

I'll be the first to admit that this isn't scientific, because I don't have time to go looking for detailed stats, but I happened to google "Wyoming gunshot deaths" and this is the first article that came up:

Wyoming ranked fourth on a list of states with the highest overall gun death rates, according to analysis of data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

The Violence Policy Center study found that states with weak gun violence prevention laws and high rates of gun ownership have the highest overall gun death rates. The study analyzed data from 2011 and ranked Louisiana, Mississippi, Alaska, Wyoming and Montana as states with the highest rates.

Louisiana registered the highest rate, with 45.6 percent of households owning firearms and 18.91 gun deaths per 100,000 people. Fourth on the list is the Cowboy State, with a gun death rate of 16.92 per 100,000 people. Nearly 63 percent of Wyoming households own firearms.

I omitted the quotes from both sides of the aisle. That's from the Casper Star-Tribune.

http://trib.com/news/state-and-regional ... 2f026.html


If I had to guess, I'd guess that over half those deaths occurred in Absaroka County. Sheriff Longmire has to solve one or two murders every week there. If you haven't seen Season 4 of Longmire on Netflix, I'd strongly recommend it. The episodes are longer than those on A&E (60 minutes as opposed to about 42) and the story telling is a lot better as a result.

http://grantland.com/hollywood-prospect ... ace-on-tv/

[Spock]

Wyoming had 21 murders in 2012 and a 2012 population of 576,000.

I'll be the first to admit that this isn't scientific, because I don't have time to go looking for detailed stats, but I happened to google "Wyoming gunshot deaths" and this is the first article that came up:

Wyoming ranked fourth on a list of states with the highest overall gun death rates, according to analysis of data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

The Violence Policy Center study found that states with weak gun violence prevention laws and high rates of gun ownership have the highest overall gun death rates. The study analyzed data from 2011 and ranked Louisiana, Mississippi, Alaska, Wyoming and Montana as states with the highest rates.

Louisiana registered the highest rate, with 45.6 percent of households owning firearms and 18.91 gun deaths per 100,000 people. Fourth on the list is the Cowboy State, with a gun death rate of 16.92 per 100,000 people. Nearly 63 percent of Wyoming households own firearms.

Gee, this is an original argument. I have only seen it from every liberal on Facebook.

For fun, lets add a little granularity (your bugaboo) to Louisiana and Mississippi. New Orleans and Jackson are both cities that are among the cities with the top ten murder rates in the country. I was somewhat surprised about Jackson being that high. Obviously, New Orleans and Jackson are prey to many of the same social problems (most epitomized by the huge rate of children without a father in the home). It would be fun to see the "Gun Death" rate in the rest of La/Ms if you remove New Orleans and Jackson from the data.

I note that you are using "Gun deaths instead of Murders." Because suicides supposedly helps your arguments, or something. I suspect that gun accidents, while obviously tragic, probably do not register at a significant statistical level.

Per Wyoming with the high rate, the population of the state is so low that any "imported suicides" could start to easily have an effect. You also have that huge cohort of tourists. Maybe a Colorado kid who loved Yellowstone maybe chooses to commit suicide there. The same applies to any "imported" suicides/murders along the hugely busy I-80 corridor.

You also have to consider the loneliness effect that often leads to suicide in later life. It is fairly common for an older bachelor on a farm/ranch who lives with his mother to commit suicide once she passes. The case I am most personally familiar with resulted in him hanging himself.

In Spock College Years (Version 2) a fellow student had worked in a very sparsely county in northwestern Minnesota. He said it had a very high suicide rate mainly because of the loneliness factor. IIRC, I think even James Herriot mentions this factor in one of his books.

I suspect that this factor might approach statistical significance in Montana/Wyoming/Alaska.

[silverscreenselect]

You also have to consider the loneliness effect that often leads to suicide in later life. It is fairly common for an older bachelor on a farm/ranch who lives with his mother to commit suicide once she passes. The case I am most personally familiar with resulted in him hanging himself.

Lots of old people are lonely, both in states with liberal gun laws and those without. However, when you look at statistics and not your fuzzy "granularity" or the anecdote about the old ranch hand, you'll find significantly higher suicide rates where there's easy access to guns.

In a study published in 2008 in the New England Journal of Medicine, Hemenway and his co-authors found that men were 3.7 times more likely to die by gun suicide in the 15 states with the highest rates of gun ownership compared to the six states with the lowest. Women in the states with the highest gun ownership were 7.9 times more likely to kill themselves with a firearm. And in a 2014 paper published in the International Review of Law and Economics, Justin Briggs and Alexander Tabarrok found that for every 1 percentage point increase in household gun ownership, suicide rates go up between 0.5 and 0.9 percent. The Briggs-Tabarrok effect, as it became known, starkly illustrates how in America having more guns leads to more suicides.

http://www.newsweek.com/2015/10/02/amer ... 74547.html

People in states with lots of firearms aren't more prone to suicidal thoughts than those in other states, but having a gun means they are more likely to succeed with an attempt (pills aren't reliable and allow people to have second thoughts and call for help) and less likely to opt out because the process might be complicated like hanging oneself. Plus, really severe suicidal thoughts are often somewhat of an impulse and pass fairly quickly if not immediately acted upon, by the time it would take someone to climb to the top of a tall building for example. Even having a longer waiting period to get a gun allows suicidal thoughts to pass.

[jarnon]

Two good guys got to use their weapons this holiday weekend.

In Minnesota, a bald eagle was entangled in a rope wound around a tree branch. An army vet shot down the branch without hitting the bird.



And here in Pennsylvania, a homeowner used his machete to sever a burglar's hand. I like his bragging sign: