The Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia-AARGH!

[Bob Juch]

I think you need to look up what "ironic" means.

I did, what's your problem?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/irony

[elwoodblues]

I think the irony here is that many of the people who are saying things like "He didn't kill anybody with a flag" are some of the same people who don't want us to do anything about guns either.

I agree that taking the flag down is an inadequate response to what happened in Charleston, but it is something that needed to be done anyway. At least we did SOMETHING, which is more than we usually do after these tragedies.

[Spock]

I think the irony here is that many of the people who are saying things like "He didn't kill anybody with a flag" are some of the same people who don't want us to do anything about guns either.

I have been pondering something for the last few days/weeks. For the sake of discussion-I want to start at the most extreme gun-control measures possible-which would be "House to House" searches for guns and ammunition. I have been wondering what would be the demographic of the people who would do the "House to House" searches.

Who among the Obama/Hillary/Saunders coalition would do it?-your urban hipsters/college professors/young single women/million moms aren't gonna do it.

The rural sheriff departments probably wouldn't do it to any extent. The infantry types in the military-as often as not-come out of the Gun culture themselves.
...............................
A more likely option is mandatory turn-ins of firearms-Obviously, this would be met with massive civil disobediance and won't accomplish anything without "House to House" searches.
-----------------------------------------------
I have long thought that the obvious gun control low-hanging fruit is to go after ammunition and the Administration is making moves in that direction. However, these actions and the the general fear of further restrictions has/is leading to massive hoarding of ammunition. You hear of a shipment of the most popular shells coming into a retailer and being sold out within an hour.

Here is a column that touches on what I am talking about
http://pjmedia.com/blog/new-gun-laws/

[silverscreenselect]

A more likely option is mandatory turn-ins of firearms-Obviously, this would be met with massive civil disobediance and won't accomplish anything without "House to House" searches.

By that token, all criminal laws are worthless, because people will still commit crimes anyway. We've prohibited murder since Biblical times, but there are still plenty of killings.

No one has said that banning firearms (or any of the other types of firearm limits that are suggested) would end the problem. However, the supply of guns in this country, although very large, is finite, and guns eventually become inoperational, they are seized in criminal raids, they are lost, or people destroy them or turn them in. With fewer guns being manufactured and sold, the supply will dwindle over a period of time. Further, it will become more difficult for those wanting to use a gun to commit a crime or to harm themselves to obtain one. Not impossible but more difficult and that's going to deter/prevent people.

In Great Britain, gun control began in earnest in 1968 and the current set of laws went into effect in 1997. Gun related deaths have declined tremendously. So to in other Westernized countries that have significant gun control laws in effect, gun violence is far lower than it is in the United States.

http://www.businessinsider.com/canada-a ... rol-2013-1

And before someone points out that laws banning drugs haven't stopped drug use (although the same people who oppose gun control are often the ones most in favor of getting tough on drug dealers), there is one major difference. Most illegal drugs are manufactured and distributed by criminals, that is people who are willing to accept the risks that accompany being involved in a criminal enterprise, like the various drug cartels. Guns, on the other hand, are manufactured and distributed by large, publicly traded corporations. Those companies and their shareholders are not nearly as likely to want to accept the risks that would accompany being involved in an illicit gun trade.


Would gun control measures work overnight? Of course not. Would they be 100% effective? Of course not. Would they work over time? Yes.

[Jeemie]

SSS, of course gun deaths have gone down in countries with fewer guns, but that's a red herring.

Violent deaths and violent crimes have not decreased in a lot of those countries, and in many cases, occurs at a higher per capita rate than in the United States.

[silverscreenselect]

SSS, of course gun deaths have gone down in countries with fewer guns, but that's a red herring.

Violent deaths and violent crimes have not decreased in a lot of those countries, and in many cases, occurs at a higher per capita rate than in the United States.

Poltifact disagrees with you.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... violent-c/

Here's the original source:

http://blog.skepticallibertarian.com/20 ... an-the-us/

The gist of these articles is that the FBI definition of violent crimes is considerably narrower than that used in other countries so it's nearly impossible to make informed comparisons. Common sense would also tell you that if the crime rates in those countries were higher than in the US, then the incarceration rate would be higher too, but the US has about five times as many people in prison as England and Australia do and about 12 times as many as Japan.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/u ... 2page1.stm

[Jeemie]

SSS, of course gun deaths have gone down in countries with fewer guns, but that's a red herring.

Violent deaths and violent crimes have not decreased in a lot of those countries, and in many cases, occurs at a higher per capita rate than in the United States.

Poltifact disagrees with you.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter ... violent-c/

Here's the original source:

http://blog.skepticallibertarian.com/20 ... an-the-us/

The gist of these articles is that the FBI definition of violent crimes is considerably narrower than that used in other countries so it's nearly impossible to make informed comparisons. Common sense would also tell you that if the crime rates in those countries were higher than in the US, then the incarceration rate would be higher too, but the US has about five times as many people in prison as England and Australia do and about 12 times as many as Japan.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/u ... 2page1.stm

I will recheck the figures I have seen, because I remember that while the US far and away has the most guns per capita, they're down in the 20s or so for rates of violent crime (assaults, rape, etc) per capita. Can't find the website at the moment.

But even if I concede this point, so what?

We still have the 2nd Amendment in this country.

I don't believe in trading freedoms just so we can live in a comfy cozy safe society.

Life is full of dangers...we don't need a nanny government protecting us from all of those dangers.

[Bob Juch]

How did this morph into gun control?

[SpacemanSpiff]

How did this morph into gun control?

Best comment I saw on this on another board -- I'm sure they borrowed it, but didn't attribute it.

First they ended slavery against our will

Then they said we couldn't lynch people,

Then they said we couldn't keep black people separate and "in their place"

Then they said we had to let them vote.

Now we're forced to treat all people equally, against our will, of course.

And now they want to take away the symbol of our proud history listed above.

Having grown up in The Deep South, I know my grandparents (both sets, and both in the B'ham area) were of the mindset of "we'll, [they're] kind of equal, and we'd like to see things change, but what can we do?" (One cousin and his pa were a bit more of the Rebel flag-waving types, and made me cringe a lot.) I'd like to think a lot of folks in that era were of my grandparents type.

And, in recalling pictures of their neighborhood in the day, I remember a lot of rebel flags flying when I was young - but not many from pictures before 1955 or so.

I once used a rebel flag for a couple of soccer teams I coached, ca. 1980, with a big soccer ball stitched upon it; I liked the juxtaposition of the Old South symbol with what was viewed by many as a "commie sport played by furriners." Third team that I used it with, I had a parent of color politely approach me after a practice and ask that I not use it, and I retired it without reservations.

Ken Burns I think said it best. It's not about heritage. It's about resistance to civil rights.

[BackInTex]

Not copying BobJ's post, but this is the flag that Thompson was writing (or talking) about. Not the one everyone is up in arms over now.

The flag Bob J's quote is referring to, not the one he put in his meme

[jarnon]

Not copying BobJ's post, but this is the flag that Thompson was writing (or talking) about. Not the one everyone is up in arms over now.

Spoiler

The protestors object to any variant of the Confederate battle flag, including this one and the Mississippi state flag. Other Confederate flags, like the Stars and Bars used in the Georgia state flag, aren't being challenged. The critics seem to care more about the battle flag's use by modern racists than the Civil War.

[Bob Juch]

[Jeemie]

Not copying BobJ's post, but this is the flag that Thompson was writing (or talking) about. Not the one everyone is up in arms over now.

Shrinkthepic

He still spoke the words- and the flag you are showing is even worse because guess what the solid white field symbolized.

And the Battle Flag represents the culture that believed these things, and was used by racists and anti-Civil rights folks as their banner in later years.

As Spiff pointed out, you didn't see this flag flying much in the South prior to the 1960s.

PS Can you add spoilers to your picture to shrink the size down? Thanks!

[BackInTex]

Bob J.....So you argue that Islam is a religion of hate at the highest levels and that we should outlaw Islam here in the US?

Because, while those folks in your picture may have some hate in their heart while holding a flag representing something else, they are not physically hurting anyone. They are just rude. But you want to take that flag, that is not theirs, away. While ISIS, al Queda, Boko Harem, et. al. all carry and reference the Koran as their guide and are hurting and killing innocent people.

[BackInTex]

As Spiff pointed out, you didn't see this flag flying much in the South prior to the 1960s.

Spiff has no clue what I saw and didn't prior to the 60's. Only in his little corner of the world.

But since I was born in '58, I don't recall seeing it, but not because I didn't.

[Jeemie]

As Spiff pointed out, you didn't see this flag flying much in the South prior to the 1960s.

Spiff has no clue what I saw and didn't prior to the 60's. Only in his little corner of the world.

But since I was born in '58, I don't recall seeing it, but not because I didn't.

Spiff's anecdote is merely support for historical fact.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc ... re/396431/

The flag represents a culture that fought to preserve slavery, and was revived as a political symbol by those who sought to resist the Civil Rights movement and the dismantling of Jim Crow.

These facts are really indisputable, BiT.

No one wants to wipe the flag away from history (well, almost no one). if individual people want to still fly it, fine- and it should be on display at battlefields as part of history.

But it is a symbol of a culture and value system that is not deserving of honor.

[Bob Juch]

Bob J.....So you argue that Islam is a religion of hate at the highest levels and that we should outlaw Islam here in the US?

Because, while those folks in your picture may have some hate in their heart while holding a flag representing something else, they are not physically hurting anyone. They are just rude. But you want to take that flag, that is not theirs, away. While ISIS, al Queda, Boko Harem, et. al. all carry and reference the Koran as their guide and are hurting and killing innocent people.

You apparently haven't read the Koran.

[BackInTex]

Bob J.....So you argue that Islam is a religion of hate at the highest levels and that we should outlaw Islam here in the US?

Because, while those folks in your picture may have some hate in their heart while holding a flag representing something else, they are not physically hurting anyone. They are just rude. But you want to take that flag, that is not theirs, away. While ISIS, al Queda, Boko Harem, et. al. all carry and reference the Koran as their guide and are hurting and killing innocent people.

You apparently haven't read the Koran.

What does that matter? It is a symbol of hate.

[silverscreenselect]

Spiff's anecdote is merely support for historical fact.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc ... re/396431/

The flag represents a culture that fought to preserve slavery, and was revived as a political symbol by those who sought to resist the Civil Rights movement and the dismantling of Jim Crow.

These facts are really indisputable, BiT.

Here in Georgia, the State Flag was changed in 1956. Prior to that time, none of the various state flags had the Confederate battle flag on them. The most recent flag, from 1920-56 looked like this:



In 1956, the flag was changed to this design:

In his state of the state address in January of that year, Gov. Marvin Griffin declared, "There will be no mixing of the races in the public schools and college classrooms of Georgia anywhere or at any time as long as I am governor. All attempts to mix the races, whether they be in the classrooms, on the playgrounds, in public conveyances or in any other area of close personal contact on terms of equity, peril the mores of the South."

Griffin's floor leader, Rep. Denmark Groover, who would serve for decades in the House of Representatives, said the new flag "would leave no doubt in anyone's mind that Georgia will not forget the teachings of Lee and Stonewall Jackson, and that this will show that we in Georgia intend to uphold what we stood for, will stand for, and will fight for ... anything we in Georgia can do to preserve the memory of the Confederacy is a step forward."

http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/2015/06/ ... state.html

[tlynn78]

Griffin's floor leader, Rep. Denmark Groover, who would serve for decades in the House of Representatives, said the new flag "would leave no doubt in anyone's mind that Georgia will not forget the teachings of Lee and Stonewall Jackson, and that this will show that we in Georgia intend to uphold what we stood for, will stand for, and will fight for ... anything we in Georgia can do to preserve the memory of the Confederacy is a step forward."

However, one of his last public acts was to speak in favor of removing the Confederate flag from the Ga. state flag. Even hardcore Dems can evolve! <ducking>

[Bob Juch]

Bob J.....So you argue that Islam is a religion of hate at the highest levels and that we should outlaw Islam here in the US?

Because, while those folks in your picture may have some hate in their heart while holding a flag representing something else, they are not physically hurting anyone. They are just rude. But you want to take that flag, that is not theirs, away. While ISIS, al Queda, Boko Harem, et. al. all carry and reference the Koran as their guide and are hurting and killing innocent people.

You apparently haven't read the Koran.

What does that matter? It is a symbol of hate.

You proved my point.

[Jeemie]

Griffin's floor leader, Rep. Denmark Groover, who would serve for decades in the House of Representatives, said the new flag "would leave no doubt in anyone's mind that Georgia will not forget the teachings of Lee and Stonewall Jackson, and that this will show that we in Georgia intend to uphold what we stood for, will stand for, and will fight for ... anything we in Georgia can do to preserve the memory of the Confederacy is a step forward."

However, one of his last public acts was to speak in favor of removing the Confederate flag from the Ga. state flag. Even hardcore Dems can evolve! <ducking>

The Georgia state flag today STILL is the Confederate flag disguised. They fooled everyone.

[BackInTex]

You proved my point.

That you post shit from other peoples' sites and have no clue? That was proven by you long ago.

[jarnon]

I love a parade!

[Jeemie]

I love a parade!

Ooops.