The Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia-AARGH!

[silverscreenselect]

However, as an add on to your questions, why where 2,128,000 men sent to battle, with 110,000 killed to keep the Confederacy from leaving the U.S.? Apparently Lincoln (who I will assume is more in the know than anyone here with regards to the value of the Confederate States) thought was some value there.

You're confusing the value of the Confederate States as a collection of assets and the value of the Confederate States of America as a going country. As a country, the Confederacy was an abysmal failure, but it had an enormous amount of assets. Just like most bankrupt companies are failures as going concerns but often have assets of considerable value.

[Bob Juch]

There are times I wish he hadn't. If it had been put to a vote it's quite possible that it would have gone to allow succession. I think it was more over the principle that the Confederate states had no right to leave the Union than if they had any value.

So your position on Lincoln is that he sent 600,000 men to their graves on principle. Wow.

Yes, but of course no one thought the casualties would be that high.

[flockofseagulls104]

It's too bad that Walmart, Sears, eBay, Amazon, etc. are stopping selling Confederate flag merchandise. It will be harder to tell who the racist assholes are.

Look in the mirror, pal.

Non-racism according to Flock: "I don't hate black people, gays, Hispanics, and other minorities. I just hate the fact they vote Democratic."

I wasn't talking to you, but since you have injected yourself into the conversation to defend an idiot, (well actually, you did not defend him, you just took the opportunity to take a stupid swipe at me) the same goes for you. Look in the mirror.

We are not living in the 1860's anymore, or even the 1960's for that matter. Our culture has changed in this area and very much for the better. Many of our ancestors harbor guilt for slavery. I don't. Nobody I know does. I judge people by the content of their character, not by the color of their skin.

Real racism still exists, but it is a very small exception. This guy Roof was an aberration and evil. Why do you want to paint the 99.9999% of us that would never even think of doing such a thing with his guilt? To me, people who dwell on the difference between people's skin color and bring it into every conversation are the racists.

[earendel]

Plus, if you think about it, if the Confederacy had succeeded, which they might have with another Franklin Pierce or James Buchanan as President, the US would not be the preeminent world power it is today. Instead, we would probably be another Yugoslavia with about a half dozen or more "countries" occupying our portion of North America.

Totally away from topic, but there was an interesting independent comic book (using two publishers in its six-year span) in the 1980s called "Captain Confederacy," which was based upon that premise -- if the CSA had won the war, what would things be like in modern times? And much of what SSS says played out -- North America was split (including at least one major Native American country), and WWI didn't play out as well as it did in our reality (not sure if WWII happened at all since Germany kind of won the first one).

http://captainconfederacy.blogspot.com/ ... erica.html
http://quantumbranching.deviantart.com/ ... -358235967

Harry Turtledove has a series of alternate history books based on the South winning the Civil War (all because the Union didn't find the battle plans for Antietam). Interestingly the subsequent history of the world plays out pretty much the same - there's a World War I in which the US supports Germany and the CSA supports England (and the USA and CSA go to war again). There's also a World War II, with the USA and CSA going at it once more. In this version of history, however, the president of the CSA plays the part of Hitler and his supporters are the Nazis, even developing a "final solution" for blacks.

[tlynn78]

I wasn't talking to you, but since you have injected yourself into the conversation to defend an idiot, (well actually, you did not defend him, you just took the opportunity to take a stupid swipe at me) the same goes for you. Look in the mirror.

We are not living in the 1860's anymore, or even the 1960's for that matter. Our culture has changed in this area and very much for the better. Many of our ancestors harbor guilt for slavery. I don't. Nobody I know does. I judge people by the content of their character, not by the color of their skin.

Real racism still exists, but it is a very small exception. This guy Roof was an aberration and evil. Why do you want to paint the 99.9999% of us that would never even think of doing such a thing with his guilt? To me, people who dwell on the difference between people's skin color and bring it into every conversation are the racists.

Or those who make comments such as, "...put him in a jail cell with a black guy and let nature take its course..."

[Spock]

I too wonder exactly what "heritage" these people are proud of. The Confederate States of America ranks right up there with Biafra as the greatest failure of a nation in world history.

A failure economically.
A failure politically.
A failure morally.
A failure socially.
A failure diplomatically.
A failure legally.

And, in less than four years, a failure militarily.

Plus, if you think about it, if the Confederacy had succeeded, which they might have with another Franklin Pierce or James Buchanan as President, the US would not be the preeminent world power it is today. Instead, we would probably be another Yugoslavia with about a half dozen or more "countries" occupying our portion of North America.

People who enjoy identifying with teams like the 1962 New York Mets at least realize they are celebrating losing. People who glorify the Confederacy are celebrating failure usually without realizing it. Other than the memories of ancestors who fought and in many cases died bravely, there is nothing to celebrate about the Confederacy.

I think it mostly comes down to the romantic figure of General Lee and (to a lesser extent) Stonewall Jackson. You take them out of the equation and much of the pride is gone. There simply isn't much romance/pride whatever in hanging on to memories of General Bragg's army in Tennessee or really any of the western armies of the confederacy.

The only other comparable, romantic figure is General Albert S. Johnston, who was killed at Shiloh. VDH wrote a piece about how a lot of the "Lost Cause" mythology is based on the counterfactual of him surviving and becoming another "General Lee".

Just read a piece about how much of the embracing of the Lost Cause is probably generational and is dying out now. People born as late as the 1920's and 1930' still had very close contact (firsthand) or very close secondhand contact with Civil War people. That generation is dying out now.

[silverscreenselect]

Real racism still exists, but it is a very small exception.

What does exist and is not a small exception are those who either pander to racists and bigots to get their political support or advance various agendas designed to limit minority participation in the political process and then, when pressed, invent pretextual reasons for supporting them, such as the virtually non-existent voter fraud issue that's used to try to justify all sorts of voter restrictions that unfailingly have a disparate impact on minority voters.

It's been an effective tactic. Ronald Reagan used it to create a coalition that gave Republicans essential control of politics for nearly 30 years, but it's fraying at the seams due to changing demographics. If the Democrats had chosen any presidential candidate other than Obama in 2008, the Republicans would pretty much already be a historical footnote, but the backlash against Obama in 2010 allowed the Republicans to gerrymander like crazy to maximize their electability. Within a few years that's going to end due to the changing demographics in this country unless Republicans actually do something to appeal to minority voters which they repeatedly refuse to do.

[silverscreenselect]

Just read a piece about how much of the embracing of the Lost Cause is probably generational and is dying out now. People born as late as the 1920's and 1930' still had very close contact (firsthand) or very close secondhand contact with Civil War people. That generation is dying out now.

It wasn't just the Civil War they had close contact with; it was Reconstruction and all the bitter feelings that engendered. The harsh treatment that many southerners received helped in their minds justify and romanticize the Cause. There are distinct similarities here to what happened in Germany in the 1920s, with the terms of the Versailles treaty making it easier for Hitler to appeal to the German public. Of course, there was no similar figure in the South (which also was not a separate country from the war victors as was Germany), but still those memories lingered in the south for decades, perhaps even more than the war itself, whose impact was largely limited to mostly rural battlefields.

[flockofseagulls104]

Real racism still exists, but it is a very small exception.

What does exist and is not a small exception are those who either pander to racists and bigots to get their political support or advance various agendas designed to limit minority participation in the political process and then, when pressed, invent pretextual reasons for supporting them, such as the virtually non-existent voter fraud issue that's used to try to justify all sorts of voter restrictions that unfailingly have a disparate impact on minority voters.

It's been an effective tactic. Ronald Reagan used it to create a coalition that gave Republicans essential control of politics for nearly 30 years, but it's fraying at the seams due to changing demographics. If the Democrats had chosen any presidential candidate other than Obama in 2008, the Republicans would pretty much already be a historical footnote, but the backlash against Obama in 2010 allowed the Republicans to gerrymander like crazy to maximize their electability. Within a few years that's going to end due to the changing demographics in this country unless Republicans actually do something to appeal to minority voters which they repeatedly refuse to do.

It is people like you who are the racists and bigots. You use race as a political tool. The problem of racism in America exists, but it is small, and the vestiges are dying out. America is probably the most racially tolerant country on the planet, yet you see all those who disagree with your policies as racist bigots and ignore and denigrate them. In the past few election cycles it has been elevated into a crisis, because it is a useful tool. It is used to stifle important debate, to demagogue and to pander. So don't talk to me about 'effective tactics', sir.

[Spock]

http://mentalfloss.com/article/29842/pr ... till-alive

Posting this-just because-the closeness of history and the stretching out of generations-I first learned of this here at some time, but reposting.

[silverscreenselect]

So don't talk to me about 'effective tactics', sir.

I've repeatedly found that talking to you is a waste of time. You've had your mind made up for you by your handlers a long time ago.

[ghostjmf]

I have some friends I dearly love & in their house are those "Our Great Confederate Generals" books. The generals are basically canonized, from childhood on.


My relationship with these friends is musical & no, I didn't discuss their politics. Nor they mine. Still makes me sad. I have never seen, heard or heard of them doing anything racist. Quite the contrary. But...those books. *Their* kids were raised with them. Will their kids' kids be?

[Bob Juch]

I have some friends I dearly love & in their house are those "Our Great Confederate Generals" books. The generals are basically canonized, from childhood on.


My relationship with these friends is musical & no, I didn't discuss their politics. Nor they mine. Still makes me sad. I have never seen, heard or heard of them doing anything racist. Quite the contrary. But...those books. *Their* kids were raised with them. Will their kids' kids be?

There's a big difference between studying and admiring the military prowess of Confederate generals and bemoaning the loss of the war and holding resentment for generations. West Point even teaches the tactics used by Lee, etc.

[ghostjmf]

These aren't for-studying books, they're set up like "George Washington chopping down the cherry tree, admitting to it & taking his licks" books.


I can understand studying military strategy in military organizations. You have to study successes & failures too, independent of the philosophies of the sides when they *are* divorced from tactics. Canonization of figures is another thing.

[flockofseagulls104]

So don't talk to me about 'effective tactics', sir.

I've repeatedly found that talking to you is a waste of time. You've had your mind made up for you by your handlers a long time ago.

First of all, you are right on one thing. I do have my mind made up. It's based on my life experience and not propaganda. I have no handlers. My mind can be changed if facts are presented that have a basis of truth in them, which you have seldom, if ever, provided.

Second of all, if you want to call me names, do it when I'm talking to you, not to someone else.

[Bob Juch]

These aren't for-studying books, they're set up like "George Washington chopping down the cherry tree, admitting to it & taking his licks" books.


I can understand studying military strategy in military organizations. You have to study successes & failures too, independent of the philosophies of the sides when they *are* divorced from tactics. Canonization of figures is another thing.

That doesn't mean they're racist.

[Bob Juch]

So don't talk to me about 'effective tactics', sir.

I've repeatedly found that talking to you is a waste of time. You've had your mind made up for you by your handlers a long time ago.

First of all, you are right on one thing. I do have my mind made up. It's based on my life experience and not propaganda. I have no handlers. My mind can be changed if facts are presented that have a basis of truth in them, which you have seldom, if ever, provided.

Second of all, if you want to call me names, do it when I'm talking to you, not to someone else.

Then how come everything you say has come from Bill O'Reilly?

[ghostjmf]

Re BJ's "that doesn't mean they're racist"


Right. My friends aren't racist. But they do appear to suffer from "glorious lost cause" nostalgia, which cause at its heart is racist. So far, no one has come up with "cause of the Confederacy" beyond the desire to keep keeping slaves that convinces me.

[BackInTex]

Re BJ's "that doesn't mean they're racist"

Right. My friends aren't racist. But they do appear to suffer from "glorious lost cause" nostalgia, which cause at its heart is racist. So far, no one has come up with "cause of the Confederacy" beyond the desire to keep keeping slaves that convinces me.

Convincing you.....convincing you.....hmm......

Well, that settles it in my book. The entire south during the confederacy were all a bunch of racists and the fighting was over nothing but slavery (except that Lincoln fella wanted a lot of blood shed for his principles).

[themanintheseersuckersuit]

Re BJ's "that doesn't mean they're racist"


Right. My friends aren't racist. But they do appear to suffer from "glorious lost cause" nostalgia, which cause at its heart is racist. So far, no one has come up with "cause of the Confederacy" beyond the desire to keep keeping slaves that convinces me.

Let's be clear slavery is not necessarily racist. Racism was often used to justify slavery especially near its end.

[Spock]

Re BJ's "that doesn't mean they're racist"


Right. My friends aren't racist. But they do appear to suffer from "glorious lost cause" nostalgia, which cause at its heart is racist. So far, no one has come up with "cause of the Confederacy" beyond the desire to keep keeping slaves that convinces me.

Let's be clear slavery is not necessarily racist. Racism was often used to justify slavery especially near its end.

Also, remember the other (African) side of the slave trade was driven by blacks or Arabs. Many black chiefs sold their enemies into slavery.

[Jeemie]

Re BJ's "that doesn't mean they're racist"


Right. My friends aren't racist. But they do appear to suffer from "glorious lost cause" nostalgia, which cause at its heart is racist. So far, no one has come up with "cause of the Confederacy" beyond the desire to keep keeping slaves that convinces me.

Let's be clear slavery is not necessarily racist. Racism was often used to justify slavery especially near its end.

Wouldn't know if they were ALL racists.

But yes- despite what the "Lost Causers" try and assert, the South fought the Civil War pretty much to preserve slavery.

One only needs to read the writings of the Confederate leaders of the day, and the declaration of causes of secession of the various seceding states to understand this.

[flockofseagulls104]

Then how come everything you say has come from Bill O'Reilly?

Bill O'Reilly must be a smart man.

How come everything you say is insipid?

[silverscreenselect]

Then how come everything you say has come from Bill O'Reilly?

Bill O'Reilly must be a smart man.

How come everything you say is insipid?

How come everything you say today is what O'Reilly, Hannity, or Limbaugh said yesterday?

[BackInTex]

Then how come everything you say has come from Bill O'Reilly?

Bill O'Reilly must be a smart man.

How come everything you say is insipid?

How come everything you say today is what O'Reilly, Hannity, or Limbaugh said yesterday?

I'm wondering how you know what O'Reilly, Hannity, or Limbaugh said yesterday?