Goodbye Bruce Jenner, Hello Caitlyn

[tlynn78]

Are you serious?

• He was the top athlete IN THE WORLD!
• He came from behind and won the decathlon gold, bringing the medal back to the US after the USSR got it for the first time in 1972. That made him a national hero.
• He was the best known decathlete since Jim Thorpe.
• He was only the second spokesperson for Wheaties and he made that a sought-after sponsorship.
• He stood in for Ponch on CHiPs.
• His > 100 IMDB credits might make many professional actors envious, without even considering the Kardashians.
• He was a successful auto racer in the 80's.
• He founded a successful aviation company, Bruce Jenner Aviation.

If this isn't someone who earned his fame, I don't know anyone who has.

And those accomplishments, and some are actual accomplishments, will be forever overshadowed by recent events. That's too bad.

[Beebs52]

I can't even.

[jaybee]

Are you serious?

• He was the top athlete IN THE WORLD!
• He came from behind and won the decathlon gold, bringing the medal back to the US after the USSR got it for the first time in 1972. That made him a national hero.
• He was the best known decathlete since Jim Thorpe.
• He was only the second spokesperson for Wheaties and he made that a sought-after sponsorship.
• He stood in for Ponch on CHiPs.
• His > 100 IMDB credits might make many professional actors envious, without even considering the Kardashians.
• He was a successful auto racer in the 80's.
• He founded a successful aviation company, Bruce Jenner Aviation.

If this isn't someone who earned his fame, I don't know anyone who has.

And those accomplishments, and some are actual accomplishments, will be forever overshadowed by recent events. That's too bad.

I don't think that 'overshadowed' is the right word. Sure, if there is a trivia question in the far future about a famous transgender person, Bruce / Caitlyn will probably be the number one answer. But I think the fact that Bruce did so many legitimate awesome things that had nothing to do with ones sexuality is one of the reasons why there seems to be more support vs criticism for her recent coming out. You don't get to be the level of athlete that he was without just massive amounts of talent and hard work. He did not disappear like many athletes and continued on as a successful businessman. He is a father to several children and step-father to others - and has apparently maintained a father / child relationship with most of them. From my viewpoint the only thing that gives me pause is when I learned that he had married into the nuckin' futz Kardashian Klan. I see the very real Jenner hooking up with the totally fake K's as a much more of a WTF moment then her recent transgender announcement.

The tricky part is writing pronouns. I find that I automatically think "him" for anything that Jenner has done other than the transgender issue. However, it's easy enough to use "her" for anything starting from a few days ago. I wonder in the future if Caitlyn will ever be known for any accomplishments that have nothing to do with her gender?

[Estonut]

The tricky part is writing pronouns. I find that I automatically think "him" for anything that Jenner has done other than the transgender issue. However, it's easy enough to use "her" for anything starting from a few days ago. I wonder in the future if Caitlyn will ever be known for any accomplishments that have nothing to do with her gender?

I had a lot of trouble with that, too. While looking up reminders for accomplishments, I was a bit surprised by Jenner's Wiki article, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caitlyn_Jenner.

Most of the early stuff says Jenner "this" and Jenner "that", avoiding pronouns for the most part. Where used, they are "she." I did the same ("Jenner") thing in my bulleted list, but it looked really odd to avoid pronouns. I tried ghost's approach, too, but "they" looks especially odd when we all know who we're talking about.

It still sounds odd to me to say "she" won the gold medal, even if it's true that he felt like a "she" that far back. The Wiki article, to me, seems as if it's rewriting history in order to be PC.

[ghostjmf]

Just for the record, I use "they" etc when the subject's gender is unimportant to the topic under discussion & unknown to the people reading what I wrote unless I tell them.


With the current topic, gender is front & center (pun intended, I guess), & the subject known by all.

[BackInTex]

Oh please. It is 'he' and always will be.

[Estonut]

Oh please. It is 'he' and always will be.

What's the problem with respecting her wishes?

If you met her today but didn't know anything about her, what pronoun would you use?

[mellytu74]

The thing that bothers me most about this (to the extent that anything does) is his choice of name-There simply are not a lot of 65 YO Caitlins out there-I would view his actions as somehow more authentic if he had chosen a name more befitting his age cohort.-Linda, Cathy etc.

(or Mary, Susan, Betty, Yvonne, Karen)
The last time my name was in the top 10 of baby girl's names, was 1957.

That's the first thing that both of us said.

OK. It was the second thing I said. The first was, "At least she didn't go with a K, like the rest of that family."

[jarnon]

The tricky part is writing pronouns. I find that I automatically think "him" for anything that Jenner has done other than the transgender issue. However, it's easy enough to use "her" for anything starting from a few days ago. I wonder in the future if Caitlyn will ever be known for any accomplishments that have nothing to do with her gender?

I had a lot of trouble with that, too. While looking up reminders for accomplishments, I was a bit surprised by Jenner's Wiki article, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caitlyn_Jenner.

Most of the early stuff says Jenner "this" and Jenner "that", avoiding pronouns for the most part. Where used, they are "she." I did the same ("Jenner") thing in my bulleted list, but it looked really odd to avoid pronouns. I tried ghost's approach, too, but "they" looks especially odd when we all know who we're talking about.

It still sounds odd to me to say "she" won the gold medal, even if it's true that he felt like a "she" that far back. The Wiki article, to me, seems as if it's rewriting history in order to be PC.

I agree. I checked how Wikipedia treated other athletes who adopted new names to reflect major changes to their identity:

Muhammad Ali:

Clay won six Kentucky Golden Gloves titles, two national Golden Gloves titles, an Amateur Athletic Union National Title, and the Light Heavyweight gold medal in the 1960 Summer Olympics in Rome. Clay's amateur record was 100 wins with five losses. Ali claimed in his 1975 autobiography that shortly after his return from the Rome Olympics he threw his gold medal into the Ohio River after he and a friend were refused service at a "whites-only" restaurant and fought with a white gang.

Victor Ahn:

Ahn Hyun Soo won a total of 4 medals in the 2006 Games, an unprecedented result by any athlete in his sport. He is the first Korean man to win at least 3 medals in a single Winter Olympics.

Wikipedia neatly juggles their old and new identities. But the article about Renée Richards is much more awkward (she's not an Olympian, but she's from my home town):

She attended Horace Mann School [note: all-male at the time] and excelled as the wide receiver for the football team, the pitcher for the baseball team, and on the tennis and swim teams. Her baseball skills even got her scouted by the New York Yankees, but she decided to focus on tennis. After high school she attended Yale University [note: also all-male] where she was captain of the Men's Tennis team.

[jaybee]

I just can't go with backdating someones entire life history with a different gender reference. In the case of Jenner, he is a father. He did, in the past, biologically father children. At that point in time he was most definitely a he. Also in the case of Jenner, he competed in a male segment of the Olympics. Were he to reveal that 'he' was female during the Olympics then that should be enough to void his Olympic victories.

I can completely accept that Caitlyn Jenner is now a 'she'. She's done female hormones, has had some surgery and if you read the reports is looking at full gender reassignment surgery sometime in the future.

I feel the same way about that 'guy' who gave birth a few years back. She gave birth, not him.

[Bob Juch]

Oh please. It is 'he' and always will be.

[Jeemie]

Where's Snoring_Fern when you need her (or is it him?)

Why should we care about any of this?

[NatteringNabobOfNegativity]

Where's Snoring_Fern when you need her (or is it him?)

Why should we care about any of this?

Because it's more exciting than asking rhetorical questions?

[themanintheseersuckersuit]

Where's Snoring_Fern when you need her (or is it him?)

Why should we care about any of this?

Because it's more exciting than asking rhetorical questions?

Wait! what? was that a rhetorical question?

[T_Bone0806]

I'd be a smartass and say he deserved the Courage award more for putting up with those idiot Kard-ass-ians all those years, but that would belittle those who have shown legitimate courage, and yes, I feel that Jenner and others in similar circumstances HAVE shown courage in stepping forward like this. It takes a lot of guts to come out in this manner, when you know that you're doing so in the face of many people who, at best don't understand and think you're a creepy weirdo, and at worst hate you and want to do physical harm to you. I admit that I myself don't comprehend the mindset that leads to so drastic a change, but if it makes one happy and it hurts no one, it's not for me to judge and I say go for it. Can't say I find Caitlin all that attractive a female, but she's happier that way, who cares what I think? She deserves some happiness I figure. Hell, I lose my mind just channel surfing because everytime I go past the E channel, they've got a stupid Kadashian show on..and that's not really much of an exaggeration. If it drives me crazy just channel surfing, imagine having to LIVE it 24/7!

Well, with all that being said, while I believe that there IS courage in going so high profile with a choice that is unpopular and not very understood...and maybe even more courage for those non-famous folk making such a choice without the benefit of having money and celebrity friends to back them up, I can't equate it with those who have faced or are facing death square in the eye. It's just not comparable to me. And this smacks of ESPN taking advantage of a current hot-button topic to bring eyeballs to their ESPY awards.


Gosh, who'da thunk ESPN capable of cheap parlor tricks to call attention to themselves?

[Spock]

About 10 years ago-a group of transforming transexuals at various stages of the process moved into a small town near here. They were here a little while and then left. I was musing this morning what you would call a group of transexuals-Like "A Murder of Crows." I kind of like "Transition" as the group term.

"A Transition of Transexuals"

[BackInTex]

About 10 years ago-a group of transforming transexuals at various stages of the process moved into a small town near here. They were here a little while and then left. I was musing this morning what you would call a group of transexuals-Like "A Murder of Crows." I kind of like "Transition" as the group term.

"A Transition of Transexuals"

How about miher, pronounced 'mi-er', like mirror but without the middle 'rr'. Starting at the 'h' you can go either way.

[TheConfessor]

Particularly those who are famous solely for being reality stars (I could care less what Jenner used to be known for... anyone heard from Kerri Strug lately?)

You dumb whippersnapper! After the decathlon win, Jenner was 10,000 times the (worldwide) star that Kerri Strug was. His fame, from that alone, lasted at least 20 years longer, too, long before the stupid TV show.

We dumb whippersnappers have you old fogies outnumbered..... just like today's dumber whippersnappers have me outnumbered....

Don't pick on me because I used Strug as an example. I almost used Mary Lou Retton, who was a hot commodity in the 80's... but the shelf life of Olympic stars is not long.

The shelf life of Olympic stars is pretty long if you happen to live in Austin in a subdivision where all the streets are named for Olympic stars. The people who live on Bruce Jenner Lane are caught in the crossfire of tourists who want to take photos of (or steal) street signs and reporters asking them if they plan to change the name to Caitlyn Jenner Lane. Just glancing at a map, I see streets named for Wilma Rudolph, Jim Thorpe, Jesse Owens, Johnny Weismuller, Eric Heiden, Billy Mills, Jim Ryun, Eddie Egan, Babe Didriksen, Buster Crabbe, and a few more I don't recognize..., and then I'll be darned, there's Kerri Strug Cove!
https://www.google.com/maps/place/30%C2 ... !1s0x0:0x0

Here's the local news story about BJ Lane.
http://www.kvue.com/story/news/local/20 ... /28510681/