Game #145: It’s the Right Time For a Movie Game

[smilergrogan]

Only one of the "definites" is incorrect. It's incorrect because of a historical timing/literary classification issue.
70. This movie and Wuthering Heights were the only adaptations of Victorian novels by someone other than Charles Dickens ever to receive Oscar nominations for Best Picture.
SENSE AND SENSIBILITY

I think this must be the wrong one - Jane Austen was pre-Victorian.

I count 27 films that won Best Actress Oscars, and 21 that won Best Actor (several won both), and that's just about enough to have one per group (58 groups to be made).

Another leg of the Tangredi must have to do with people involved with a movie rather than the title, since a specific version of Frankie and Johnny (and Planet of the Apes, and Ben-Hur, etc.) was specified.

[mellytu74]

33. “Too soon, too soon, he died too soon.”
“About an hour too soon.”

This is the Marx Brothers in ROOM SERVICE

41. “I'm the baddest man in the world!”
“You don't look so bad to me.”
“What did you say, Paper Champion? I'll beat you like a dog, a dog, you fool!”

I think (and I emphasize THINK) this is the Rocky movie with Mr. T BUT they all blend together after a while.

79. “If there's magic in boxing, it's the magic of fighting battles beyond endurance, beyond cracked ribs, ruptured kidneys and detached retinas. It's the magic of risking everything for a dream that nobody sees but you.”

How did I miss this? Morgan Freeman in MILLION DOLLAR BABY

[plasticene]

Only one of the "definites" is incorrect. It's incorrect because of a historical timing/literary classification issue.

70. This movie and Wuthering Heights were the only adaptations of Victorian novels by someone other than Charles Dickens ever to receive Oscar nominations for Best Picture.

This isn't SENSE AND SENSIBILITY. Could it be TESS? I'm not sure if it qualifies as either Victorian or Oscar-nominated. I am sure Charles Dickens didn't write it.

Another one of the "definities" is correct as far as it goes, but it needs a further refinement to be matchable.

101. “Like a midget at a urinal, I was going to have to stay on my toes.”

It must be one of the sequels to THE NAKED GUN.

Of the answers with a single title and a question mark, all but one are correct.

AND THEN THERE WERE NONE?
THE STEEL HELMET?
COME AND GET IT?
THE BAREFOOT CONTESSA?
MALCOLM X?
GOING MY WAY?
ALIEN?
BORN ON THE FOURTH OF JULY?

Of the question-marked answers that don't specify titles, one is on the right track and one isn't.

A HALLE BERRY MOVIE?
A MEL BROOKS FILM?

Of the answers with two or more alternates suggested, all but one include the correct answer.

SCREAM? THE RUNNING MAN?
THE OUTLAW JOSEY WALES? IN THE HEAT OF THE NIGHT?
LAURA? GUN CRAZY?
WOMEN IN LOVE? DEATHTRAP? MAGIC MIKE?
ALL THE KING'S MEN? WHO FRAMED ROGER RABBIT?

There are enough correct answers to complete 22 matches.

I got nothin'.

[mellytu74]

Only one of the "definites" is incorrect. It's incorrect because of a historical timing/literary classification issue.
70. This movie and Wuthering Heights were the only adaptations of Victorian novels by someone other than Charles Dickens ever to receive Oscar nominations for Best Picture.
SENSE AND SENSIBILITY

I think this must be the wrong one - Jane Austen was pre-Victorian.

What's the time frame for Les Miserables (the non-musical version in the 1930s with Frederic March)?

[smilergrogan]

Only one of the "definites" is incorrect. It's incorrect because of a historical timing/literary classification issue.
70. This movie and Wuthering Heights were the only adaptations of Victorian novels by someone other than Charles Dickens ever to receive Oscar nominations for Best Picture.
SENSE AND SENSIBILITY

I think this must be the wrong one - Jane Austen was pre-Victorian.

What's the time frame for Les Miserables (the non-musical version in the 1930s with Frederic March)?

Doesn't it have to be English to be considered Victorian? Otherwise, "Ben-Hur" would count, or "Little Women".

[mrkelley23]

The Mel Brooks film is wrong. Now that I"m awake, I realize this must be THE ARTIST.

That means the clue about multiple Bond girls and Catwomen refers to a Halle Berry film, since she fulfills two of the four requirements.

[Bob Juch]

5. “My first wife was clever, my second was ambitious, but my third. . . . Thomas, if you want to be happy, marry a girl like my sweet little Jane. Marry a stupid woman!”
THE PRIVATE LIVES OF HENRY VIII

It should be THE PRIVATE LIFE OF HENRY VIII.

[mrkelley23]

I think this must be the wrong one - Jane Austen was pre-Victorian.

What's the time frame for Les Miserables (the non-musical version in the 1930s with Frederic March)?

Doesn't it have to be English to be considered Victorian? Otherwise, "Ben-Hur" would count, or "Little Women".

I think Plasticene has it right with TESS. I had a major crush on Nastassja Kinski, and it was released in the time of my violent youth, so I remember it being nominated for Best Picture. (Why do I remember? Because then I paid to go and see it. Crushing disappointment.) (Not because the film was bad, she was just so ... covered up. And teenage boys are not big on subtlety.) And I believe it's considered Victorian, although I am less sure of that.

[franktangredi]

What's the time frame for Les Miserables (the non-musical version in the 1930s with Frederic March)?

Doesn't it have to be English to be considered Victorian? Otherwise, "Ben-Hur" would count, or "Little Women".

I think Plasticene has it right with TESS. I had a major crush on Nastassja Kinski, and it was released in the time of my violent youth, so I remember it being nominated for Best Picture. (Why do I remember? Because then I paid to go and see it. Crushing disappointment.) (Not because the film was bad, she was just so ... covered up. And teenage boys are not big on subtlety.) And I believe it's considered Victorian, although I am less sure of that.

I'll clear that point up. It is late Victorian, but Victorian.

[ToLiveIsToFly]

Of the answers with a single title and a question mark, all but one are correct.

AND THEN THERE WERE NONE?
THE STEEL HELMET?
COME AND GET IT?
THE BAREFOOT CONTESSA?
MALCOLM X?
GOING MY WAY?
ALIEN?
BORN ON THE FOURTH OF JULY?

I think it's the last one, that it's COMING HOME instead.

[smilergrogan]

Game #145: It’s the Right Time For a Movie Game

Identify the 125 movies in the clues below. (Every other clue is a quotation.) Then, match them into 56 triples and 2 quadruples according to a Tangredi, or principle you must discover for yourself. There will be 37 movies used twice and seven used three times. No movie will be used in exactly the same way more than once.

1. IT HAPPENED ONE NIGHT
2. BREAKER MORANT
3. SILVER LININGS PLAYBOOK
4. ELMER GANTRY
5. THE PRIVATE LIFE OF HENRY VIII

6. A lot of us wouldn’t be here if we faced the same penalty for getting a trivia question wrong that Steve received early in this film. Poor Steve.
SCREAM? THE RUNNING MAN?

7. L.A. CONFIDENTIAL
8. ROMAN HOLIDAY
9. STALAG 17
10. IT'S ALWAYS FAIR WEATHER
11. IN THE HEAT OF THE NIGHT

12. The three leading ladies of this family comedy had all previously appeared on television as love interests of the Fresh Prince.

13. THE PRIME OF MISS JEAN BRODIE
14. JOHNNY GUITAR
15. AIRPORT
16. SEPARATE TABLES
17. LITTLE MISS SUNSHINE
18. GROWN UPS
19. BORN YESTERDAY

20. This 1945 noir classic was the first ‘B’ movie included in the National Film Registry.
LAURA? GUN CRAZY?

21. ROSEMARY'S BABY
22. YOU'VE GOT MAIL

23. “Ladies and gentlemen, I'm sorry to drag you from your desserts. There are just one or two little things I feel I should say, as best man. This is only the second time I've been a best man. I hope I did okay that time. The couple in question are at least still talking to me. Unfortunately, they're not actually talking to each other. The divorce came through a couple of months ago. But I'm assured it had absolutely nothing to do with me. Paula knew Piers had slept with her sister before I mentioned it in the speech. The fact that he'd slept with her mother came as a surprise, but I think was incidental to the nightmare of recrimination and violence that became their two-day marriage. Anyway, enough of that.”

24. FRENZY
25. THE BEST YEARS OF OUR LIVES

26. This classic movie reunited the three male stars of the previous year’s Oscar winner for Best Picture.

27. “I can get you out of Kenya. it's one of the few things we still do well. Drop it now, and it's over. I'll make sure word gets to the right people. Go home. and live.”
“But I don't have a home, Tim. Tessa was my home.”

28. MY FAIR LADY
29. THE MIRACLE WORKER

30. This movie was a stopover on a journey that went from Lillian Gish to Cicely Tyson.

31. KISS OF THE SPIDER WOMAN
32. AND THEN THERE WERE NONE
33. ROOM SERVICE
34. SUNRISE
35. THE READER
36. THE WIZ
37. SCENT OF A WOMAN
38. THE STEEL HELMET
39. UNFORGIVEN
40. FREQUENCY

41. “I'm the baddest man in the world!”
“You don't look so bad to me.”
“What did you say, Paper Champion? I'll beat you like a dog, a dog, you fool!”
ROCKY III?

42. THE DIARY OF ANNE FRANK
43. THE GOODBYE GIRL
44. COME AND GET IT
45. MISERY
46. THE BAREFOOT CONTESSA
47. NETWORK
48. SUSPICION
49. THE PIANO
50. HIGH NOON
51. HUD

52. This cast of this comedy included one former Catwoman, one future Catwoman, one former Bond girl, and one future Bond girl – making a total of three actresses in all.
A HALLE BERRY MOVIE

53. BEGINNERS
54. THE YEAR OF LIVING DANGEROUSLY
55. COOL HAND LUKE

56. The star of the movie in Clue #52 received his only Oscar nomination for this musical.

57. JEZEBEL
58. MALCOLM X
59..ON GOLDEN POND
60. MYRA BRECKINRIDGE
61. ERIN BROCKOVICH
62. CATS AND DOGS
63. MRS. MINIVER
64. THE VIPS

65. “I'm watching these people up on the screen and I started getting hooked on the film. I started to feel, how can you even think of killing yourself, I mean isn't it so stupid. Look at all the people up there on the screen, they're real funny, and what if the worst is true. What if there is no God and you only go around once and that's it. Well, you know, don't you wanna be part of the experience? You know, what the hell it's not all a drag. And I'm thinking to myself, Jeez, I should stop ruining my life searching for answers I'm never gonna get, and just enjoy it while it lasts. And after who knows, I mean maybe there is something, nobody really knows. I know maybe is a very slim reed to hang your whole life on, but that's the best we have. And then I started to sit back, and I actually began to enjoy myself.”

66. This 1966 psycho-horror-thriller asked the burning question: Did Don Ameche set the fire that killed Zsa Zsa Gabor? (A surprising number of people didn’t care.)

67. HARVEY
68. JULIA
69. AN OFFICER AND A GENTLEMAN
70. TESS
71. REDS
72. DR. T AND THE WOMEN
73. NORMA RAE
74. GOING MY WAY

75. “You have no reason to be mad at me, I mean, you know, you broke my heart. I should be royally ticked off at you. I should be really cheesed off, I shouldn't want to talk to you anymore.”
“What? Cause I got bored and had sex with you and I didn't want to like marry you?”
“Like I'd marry you! You'd be the meanest wife ever, okay? And I know that you weren't bored that day because there was a lot of stuff on TV, and then The Blair Witch Project was coming on Starz and you were like 'I haven't seen this since it came out and if so we should watch it' and then 'But oh, no, we should just make out instead la la la!'”

76. This movie marked the second time one of its two leading men had appeared in a film adaptation of a Clifford Odets play.

77. “Everything happens to me. Now I'm shot by a child.”

78. BEN-HUR
79. MILLION DOLLAR BABY
80. THE LAST PICTURE SHOW

81. “Six weeks ago, I spoke harshly to a patient and she committed suicide. Right in front of me. Perhaps she would have done this anyway. That's what my colleagues say. But I don't know.”

82. The fourth of sixteen films in a classic series, it was also the second of nine films to pair a classic screen duo.

83. GOOD WILL HUNTING
84. BOYS TOWN
85. ROXANNE

86. It was the last of five feature films in an eight-year period adapted from the works of the same English novelist, and the third by the same director.

87. “The historical facts are known by everyone. All of Lawford, all of New Hampshire, some of Massachusetts. Facts do not make history. Our stories, Wade's and mine, describe the lives of the boys and men for thousands of years: boys who were beaten by their fathers, whose capacity for love and trust was crippled almost at birth, men whose best hope for connection with other human beings lay in detachment, as if life were over. It's how we keep from destroying in turn our own children and terrorizing the women who have the misfortune to love us; how we absent ourselves from the tradition of male violence; how we decline the seduction of revenge.”

88. BILLY THE KID VS. DRACULA
89. BARTON FINK
90. VIVA ZAPATA!
91. WHO'S AFRAID OF VIRGINIA WOOLF?

92. Reportedly, scenes from this comedy – which was released the same year as the attack on Pearl Harbor – were used by the Japanese to show how stupid American soldiers were

93. FROM HERE TO ETERNITY
94. DARLING
95. ORDINARY PEOPLE
96. THE ARTIST
97. BUTTERFLIES ARE FREE
98. LITTLE WOMEN (original)
99. SILENCE OF THE LAMBS
100. I WANT TO LIVE

101. “Like a midget at a urinal, I was going to have to stay on my toes.”
ONE OF THE NAKED GUN MOVIES

102. SHAMPOO
103. THEY SHOOT HORSES, DON'T THEY?
104. ALIEN
105. PLANET OF THE APES (original)
106. THE THREE FACES OF EVE

107. “If a bullet should enter my brain, let that bullet destroy every closet door.”

108. WOMEN IN LOVE
109. ED WOOD
110. STAGECOACH
111. ALL THE KING'S MEN
112. ALICE DOESN'T LIVE HERE ANYMORE
113. FORREST GUMP

114. This film was based on a Pulitzer Prize-winning novel that took its title from the working title of an earlier novel central to its plot.

115. COMING HOME
116. In a climactic moment of a 1981 television biopic, Glenda Jackson recreated the shooting of a scene from this movie.

117. “I don’t trust happiness. Never did, never will.

118.FRANKIE AND JOHNNY (Elvis version)

119. “Haven't you noticed how nothing in this house seems to move until you look away and then you just... catch something out of the corner of your eye?”

120. The subject of this biopic was able to attend a screening of the first edit, but died of liver failure four months before it was released.

121. THE KING'S SPEECH

122. The most expensive movie ever made in Hollywood up to that time, this biopic was a labor of love for Darryl Zanuck, and he never got over the fact that it bombed at the box office and lost the Oscar to a film in one of the preceding clues.

123. MARY POPPINS

124. A classic of the Angry Young Man school, it was the second film and first starring role for one of my favorite actors – and, according to him, the first English film to show a man in bed with another man’s wife.

125. GONE WITH THE WIND

[silverscreenselect]

I think that it does have something to do with acting Oscars, but I think it's more than just Best Actor/Actress; it's also Best Supporing Actor/Actress. You've got Reds (Maureen Stapleton); Last Picture Show (Ben Johnson and Cloris Leachman); Anne Frank (Shelley Winters); They Shoot Horses (Gig Young); VIPs (Margaret Rutherford); Butterflies Are Free (Eileen Heckert); Ordinary People (Timothy Hutton); Ed Wood (Martin Landau); Stagecoach (Thomas Mitchell); Good Will Hunting (Robin Williams); Officer and Gentleman (Lou Gosset); Airport (Helen Hayes).

Frank says that no two films are used in exactly the same way twice, so a film like It Happened One Night with two acting Oscars could be used twice for matching Clark Gable in one way (with one other person) and Claudette Colbert in another.

We have at least three films with multiple Oscar winners. Since a film can't be matched with itself, it would seem the most likely pairing is (Best Actor and Best Supporting Actress) & (Best Actress and Best Supporting Actor). Obviously these couldn't be in the same year, because It Happened One Night was in 1934, before the Best Supporting categories were created.

This makes films like Billy the Kid vs. Dracula a problem. No one in it ever came close to an Oscar, although John Carradine was in many well known films over the years, including Stagecoach and The Ten Commandments. One possible link would be with Charlton Heston and Anne Baxter in The Ten Commandments IF The Razor's Edge is one of the remaining films.

[silverscreenselect]

86. It was the last of five feature films in an eight-year period adapted from the works of the same English novelist, and the third by the same director.

This might be The Razor's Edge, because a number of Maugham works were filmed leading up to it, and Edmund Goulding also directed Of Human Bondage, but I can't find a third Maugham film he directed.

[ne1410s]

117--Tender Mercies (Robert Duvall). This was on heavy rotation on Encore--maybe that's redundant...

[silverscreenselect]

120. The subject of this biopic was able to attend a screening of the first edit, but died of liver failure four months before it was released.

RAY

The strong suspicion that we are looking at Oscar winning performances made this one somewhat easier to figure out.

[ToLiveIsToFly]

Ok, how about this?
Warren Beatty (Best Director - REDS) + Julie Christy (Best Actress - DARLING) = SHAMPOO?

[ToLiveIsToFly]

6. A lot of us wouldn’t be here if we faced the same penalty for getting a trivia question wrong that Steve received early in this film. Poor Steve.
SCREAM? THE RUNNING MAN?

I'M PRETTY SURE THIS IS SCREAM. DREW BARRYMORE'S IN THE HOUSE, SCARY GUY CALLS, SHE THREATENS HIM WITH HER BOYFRIEND AND IS TOLD TO LOOK OUTSIDE, SEES BF TIED UP AND TERRIFIED, THEN THE QUESTION IS WHO IS THE KILLER IN THE FIRST FRIDAY THE 13TH MOVIE, AND SHE SAYS JASON, AND THE ANSWER WAS JASON'S MOTHER, AND BF IS KILLED. COULDN'T SWEAR THE BF'S NAME IS STEVE, BUT IT FEELS RIGHT.

65. “I'm watching these people up on the screen and I started getting hooked on the film. I started to feel, how can you even think of killing yourself, I mean isn't it so stupid. Look at all the people up there on the screen, they're real funny, and what if the worst is true. What if there is no God and you only go around once and that's it. Well, you know, don't you wanna be part of the experience? You know, what the hell it's not all a drag. And I'm thinking to myself, Jeez, I should stop ruining my life searching for answers I'm never gonna get, and just enjoy it while it lasts. And after who knows, I mean maybe there is something, nobody really knows. I know maybe is a very slim reed to hang your whole life on, but that's the best we have. And then I started to sit back, and I actually began to enjoy myself.”
HANNAH AND HER SISTERS

75. “You have no reason to be mad at me, I mean, you know, you broke my heart. I should be royally ticked off at you. I should be really cheesed off, I shouldn't want to talk to you anymore.”
“What? Cause I got bored and had sex with you and I didn't want to like marry you?”
“Like I'd marry you! You'd be the meanest wife ever, okay? And I know that you weren't bored that day because there was a lot of stuff on TV, and then The Blair Witch Project was coming on Starz and you were like 'I haven't seen this since it came out and if so we should watch it' and then 'But oh, no, we should just make out instead la la la!'”
JUNO

77. “Everything happens to me. Now I'm shot by a child.”
IS THIS TRUE GRIT?

[silverscreenselect]

52. This cast of this comedy included one former Catwoman, one future Catwoman, one former Bond girl, and one future Bond girl – making a total of three actresses in all.
A HALLE BERRY MOVIE

56. The star of the movie in Clue #52 received his only Oscar nomination for this musical.

52 is BOOMERANG, with Grace Jones and Eartha Kitt in the cast along with Berry, the star of which was Eddie Murphy.

That means 56 is DREAMGIRLS.

[SportsFan68]

Nevermind! After I posted, I checked, and somebody else already got both of these.

“You have no reason to be mad at me, I mean, you know, you broke my heart. I should be royally ticked off at you. I should be really cheesed off, I shouldn't want to talk to you anymore.”
“What? Cause I got bored and had sex with you and I didn't want to like marry you?”
“Like I'd marry you! You'd be the meanest wife ever, okay? And I know that you weren't bored that day because there was a lot of stuff on TV, and then The Blair Witch Project was coming on Starz and you were like 'I haven't seen this since it came out and if so we should watch it' and then 'But oh, no, we should just make out instead la la la!'”

This is Juno.

76. This movie marked the second time one of its two leading men had appeared in a film adaptation of a Clifford Odets play.

I dunno this one.

77. “Everything happens to me. Now I'm shot by a child.”

Tom Chaney says this in True Grit.

[Pastor Fireball]

12. The three leading ladies of this family comedy had all previously appeared on television as love interests of the Fresh Prince.

This could be SOUL FOOD. Vivica Fox, Vanessa Williams, and Nia Long were all definitely on that show.

23. “Ladies and gentlemen, I'm sorry to drag you from your desserts. There are just one or two little things I feel I should say, as best man. This is only the second time I've been a best man. I hope I did okay that time. The couple in question are at least still talking to me. Unfortunately, they're not actually talking to each other. The divorce came through a couple of months ago. But I'm assured it had absolutely nothing to do with me. Paula knew Piers had slept with her sister before I mentioned it in the speech. The fact that he'd slept with her mother came as a surprise, but I think was incidental to the nightmare of recrimination and violence that became their two-day marriage. Anyway, enough of that.”

FOUR WEDDINGS AND A FUNERAL

27. “I can get you out of Kenya. it's one of the few things we still do well. Drop it now, and it's over. I'll make sure word gets to the right people. Go home. and live.”
“But I don't have a home, Tim. Tessa was my home.”

THE CONSTANT GARDENER

82. The fourth of sixteen films in a classic series, it was also the second of nine films to pair a classic screen duo.

The only series I can think of that had that many films in it is the Andy Hardy series. So go with whichever Andy Hardy film was fourth.

87. “The historical facts are known by everyone. All of Lawford, all of New Hampshire, some of Massachusetts. Facts do not make history. Our stories, Wade's and mine, describe the lives of the boys and men for thousands of years: boys who were beaten by their fathers, whose capacity for love and trust was crippled almost at birth, men whose best hope for connection with other human beings lay in detachment, as if life were over. It's how we keep from destroying in turn our own children and terrorizing the women who have the misfortune to love us; how we absent ourselves from the tradition of male violence; how we decline the seduction of revenge.”

AFFLICTION

101. “Like a midget at a urinal, I was going to have to stay on my toes.”

NAKED GUN 33 1/3

107. “If a bullet should enter my brain, let that bullet destroy every closet door.”

It's a Harvey Milk quote, so... MILK.

[silverscreenselect]

82. The fourth of sixteen films in a classic series, it was also the second of nine films to pair a classic screen duo.

The only series I can think of that had that many films in it is the Andy Hardy series. So go with whichever Andy Hardy film was fourth.

The IMDB numbers for the totals don't quite match, but LOVE FINDS ANDY HARDY was the fourth Hardy film and the second film to costar Rooney and Judy Garland, so that has to be right.

[mellytu74]

This makes films like Billy the Kid vs. Dracula a problem. No one in it ever came close to an Oscar, although John Carradine was in many well known films over the years, including Stagecoach and The Ten Commandments. One possible link would be with Charlton Heston and Anne Baxter in The Ten Commandments IF The Razor's Edge is one of the remaining films.

Billy the Kid vs. Dracula also yields Virginia Christine (the Folger Coffee lady), who was in Guess Who's Coming to Dinner (a Hepburn Oscar). Could that be among our missing??

I know it's not this one.

114. This film was based on a Pulitzer Prize-winning novel that took its title from the working title of an earlier novel central to its plot.

THE HOURS. The Hours was the working title of Mrs. Dalloway.

[mellytu74]

92. Reportedly, scenes from this comedy – which was released the same year as the attack on Pearl Harbor – were used by the Japanese to show how stupid American soldiers were

How about Abbott & Costello's BUCK PRIVATES?

[mellytu74]

3. SILVER LININGS PLAYBOOK
4. ELMER GANTRY

Jennifer Lawrence + Shirley Jones = Jennifer Jones, another Oscar winner.

It doesn't MEAN anything, mind you. I am just doooodling.

[mellytu74]

76. This movie marked the second time one of its two leading men had appeared in a film adaptation of a Clifford Odets play.

How about THE COUNTRY GIRL? William Holden's first Odets appearance was Golden Boy. The Oscar winner is Grace Kelly

116. In a climactic moment of a 1981 television biopic, Glenda Jackson recreated the shooting of a scene from this movie.

I think the biopic is The Patricia Neal Story but I don't recall ever seeing it, so I don't know the end. Could it be THE SUBJECT WAS ROSES? Jack Albertson won the Oscar.

122. The most expensive movie ever made in Hollywood up to that time, this biopic was a labor of love for Darryl Zanuck, and he never got over the fact that it bombed at the box office and lost the Oscar to a film in one of the preceding clues.

WILSON - with Oscar winners Charles Coburn and Thomas Mitchell