This also shouldn't fly under the (political) radar

[Bob Juch]

http://dailycaller.com/2012/02/02/holde ... %e2%80%99/

The head of the Department of Justice’s Criminal Division and Attorney General Eric Holder’s highest-ranking deputy, Assistant Attorney General Lanny Breuer, called Operation Fast and Furious and gun walking a “terrific idea” in emails to now-former Acting Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Director Ken Melson back in late 2009, according a report released by Republican staff of the House Oversight Committee.

On Dec. 3, 2009, Melson wrote to Breuer, “Lanny: We have decided to take a little different approach with regard to seizures of multiple weapons in Mexico. Assuming the guns are traced, instead of working each trace almost independently of the other traces from the seizure, I want to coordinate and monitor the work on all of them collectively as if the seizure was one case. . . We should meet again just to catch up on where we are in our gun-trafficking issues and we could talk about the above idea as well. Let me know what you think.”

Breuer responded on Dec. 4, 2009, writing, “We think this is a terrific idea and a great way to approach the investigations of these seizures. Our Gang Unit will be assigning an attorney to help you coordinate this effort.”

According to Fox News, on Wednesday, Deputy Attorney General James Cole denied that Breuer and Melson were talking about Fast and Furious and its tactics. “In light of Assistant Attorney General Breuer’s commitment to stemming the flow of guns from the United States into Mexico and his strong ties and collaborative relationships with his counterparts in Mexico, it is inconceivable that his intention was to have guns released into Mexico,” Cole wrote.

I believe that.

[Bob78164]

http://dailycaller.com/2012/02/02/holde ... %e2%80%99/

The head of the Department of Justice’s Criminal Division and Attorney General Eric Holder’s highest-ranking deputy, Assistant Attorney General Lanny Breuer, called Operation Fast and Furious and gun walking a “terrific idea” in emails to now-former Acting Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives Director Ken Melson back in late 2009, according a report released by Republican staff of the House Oversight Committee.

On Dec. 3, 2009, Melson wrote to Breuer, “Lanny: We have decided to take a little different approach with regard to seizures of multiple weapons in Mexico. Assuming the guns are traced, instead of working each trace almost independently of the other traces from the seizure, I want to coordinate and monitor the work on all of them collectively as if the seizure was one case. . . We should meet again just to catch up on where we are in our gun-trafficking issues and we could talk about the above idea as well. Let me know what you think.”

Breuer responded on Dec. 4, 2009, writing, “We think this is a terrific idea and a great way to approach the investigations of these seizures. Our Gang Unit will be assigning an attorney to help you coordinate this effort.”

According to Fox News, on Wednesday, Deputy Attorney General James Cole denied that Breuer and Melson were talking about Fast and Furious and its tactics. “In light of Assistant Attorney General Breuer’s commitment to stemming the flow of guns from the United States into Mexico and his strong ties and collaborative relationships with his counterparts in Mexico, it is inconceivable that his intention was to have guns released into Mexico,” Cole wrote.

I'm glad you quoted the relevant portions of the e-mails instead of the misleading headline used by The Daily Caller.

I don't see anything in the December 3 e-mail that suggests ATF was gunrunning. (I understand that they were, in fact, gunrunning, but the issue is whether the recipients of the e-mail knew it.) As a lay person, when I see an e-mail about "tracing" guns, I assume they mean backtracing them to their source, not letting them back out and then tracing their future movements.

Admittedly, I don't work in law enforcement, but to me, that e-mail says something to the effect of, instead of reinventing the wheel each time we capture a gun and want to trace it, let's avoid duplication of effort by doing it all at once. --Bob

[Flybrick]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/02 ... d/#content

Attorney General Eric Holder vigorously denied a "cover-up" by the Justice Department over "Operation Fast and Furious," telling a House panel investigating the botched gun-running program that he has nothing to hide and suggesting the probe is a "political" effort to embarrass the administration.

Asked whether his assistants, Deputy Attorney General Gary Grindler or Assistant Attorney Lanny Breuer, head of the department's Criminal Division, ever authorized gunwalking or the tactics employed in Fast and Furious, Holder responded not to his knowledge.

"Not only did I not authorize those tactics, when I found out about them I told the field and everybody in the United States Department of Justice that those tactics had to stop. That they were not acceptable and that gunwalking was to stop. That was what my reaction [was] to my finding out about the use of that technique," he added.

A multi-agency operation - DEA/ATF/FBI/CBP - e-mails to his deputies, his chief of staff, his deputy chief of staff, to the National Security Council/White House, reports sent to his in-box, and he never knew about it.


Incompetence or ignorance.

[Flybrick]

http://www.azcentral.com/12news/news/ar ... rmers.html

Mexican cartel suspects targeted in the troubled gun-trafficking probe known as Operation Fast and Furious were actually working as FBI informants at the time, according to a congressional memo that describes the case's mission as a "failure."

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has acknowledged that guns were allowed into the hands of Mexican criminals for more than a year in the hope of catching "big fish."

"These were the 'big fish,' " says the memo, written on behalf of Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., and Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa. "DEA and the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) had jointly opened a separate investigation targeting these two cartel associates. ... Yet, ATF spent the next year engaging in the reckless tactics of Fast and Furious in attempting to identify them."

According to Issa and Grassley, the cartel suspects, whose names were not released, were regarded by FBI as "national-security assets." One pleaded guilty to a minor offense. The other was not charged. "Both became FBI informants and are now considered unindictable," the memo says. "This means that the entire goal of Fast and Furious -- to target these two individuals and bring them to justice -- was a failure."

Are you f'in' kidding me? One DOJ agency - ATF - is chasing bad guys working for other parts of DOJ - FBI. Yet a third federal agency, ICE, is intercepting the weapons as they are being transported.

And nobody knew nothin'.

A dead Border Patrol agent in the U.S., a dead DEA agent in Mexico, and some 300 dead Mexicans and not one person has been held responsible or even blamed.

Can you imagine if this had happened with Dubya in office, Gonzales as the AG?

But this barely gets a yawn...

UFB.

[Flybrick]

http://dailycaller.com/2012/02/14/issa- ... -congress/

On Tuesday Rep. Darrell Issa, chairman of the House committee on Oversight and Government Reform, took a major step toward holding Attorney General Eric Holder in contempt of Congress for his failure to provide subpoenaed documents and other information about Operation Fast and Furious.

In a Jan. 31 letter, Issa had threatened Holder with such a move if he failed to provide all the subpoenaed documents relating to the Fast and Furious gunwalking scandal by Feb. 9. That deadline has come and gone, and Holder’s Department of Justice still hasn’t provided most of those documents. Issa’s subpoena dates back to Oct. 12, 2011.

On Tuesday in a seven-page letter, Issa revealed that Deputy Attorney General James Cole begged Congress to extend the Feb. 9 deadline. Issa wrote that the request was “ironic” and “ignores the reality that the Department has unreasonably delayed producing these documents to the Committee.”

Issa’s letter concluded by warning that Congress will continue to investigate Opeaqtion Fast and Furious until responsible parties are held accountable. He pointed to bipartisan support behind efforts to assign responsibility for Border Patrol agent Brian Terry’s murder, for the murders of at least 300 Mexican civilians and, likely, for the murder of Immigration and Customs Enforcement agent Jaime Zapata.

“This is not an ‘election year political ‘gotcha’ game,’ but rather a bipartisan sentiment,” Issa wrote. “As Ranking Member [Democratic Rep. Elijah] Cummings promised the family of slain Border Patrol Agent Brian Terry, ‘we will not rest until every single person responsible for all of this, no matter where they are, are brought to justice.’ I applaud his resolve, and I want to make it clear that Congress will not give up until this accountability has been achieved.”

[Flybrick]

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_n ... ggler.html

Mexican authorities have arrested a reputed enforcer for the country's most powerful drug cartel -- a man also alleged to have amassed weapons from the U.S. government's failed Fast and Furious gun-smuggling operation (link, in Spanish, includes video).

It was there, in the violent city of Ciudad Juarez, that a raid by Mexican police in April 2011 turned up high-powered assault guns purchased illegally through the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives "Fast and Furious" program. As the Washington Bureau's Richard A. Serrano reported last fall, the discovery confirmed that Fast and Furious weapons were reaching the ruthless Sinaloa organization and that the geographic spread of the "walked" guns was wider than originally thought

You'd think this would make the news every day on every outlet.

Oh, wait, no Bush in the White House...

My mistake.

[Bob78164]

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_n ... ggler.html

Mexican authorities have arrested a reputed enforcer for the country's most powerful drug cartel -- a man also alleged to have amassed weapons from the U.S. government's failed Fast and Furious gun-smuggling operation (link, in Spanish, includes video).

It was there, in the violent city of Ciudad Juarez, that a raid by Mexican police in April 2011 turned up high-powered assault guns purchased illegally through the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives "Fast and Furious" program. As the Washington Bureau's Richard A. Serrano reported last fall, the discovery confirmed that Fast and Furious weapons were reaching the ruthless Sinaloa organization and that the geographic spread of the "walked" guns was wider than originally thought

You'd think this would make the news every day on every outlet.

Oh, wait, no Bush in the White House...

My mistake.

You're spending an awful lot of electrons posting information to the effect that Fast and Furious was a dreadfully bad idea that led to an awful lot of guns ending up in hands they should never have reached, and also resulting in the line-of-duty death of Agent Brian Terry. I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

The issue of interest to me is whether Attorney General Holder did or should have known enough about the program in time to have stopped it before that tragic death. When you lose your focus on that issue, you lose my attention. --Bob

[Flybrick]

1. Your attention is not of my concern. You don't seem concerned with the "unintended consequences" of letting weapons be purchased knowingly illegally by bad guys by various departments of the federal government. Some of whom were employing some of those same bad guys. Others of whom were trying to stop the weapons at the border. Nobody was talking to anybody.

2. A Border Patrol agent was killed in Arizona by those weapons. An ICE agent (I've been saying DEA when it wasn't) was killed in Mexico by some of those weapons. Some 300 Mexicans have been killed by those weapons.

3. NOBODY has been held accountable for the operation or the deaths. Not one federal official has been found responsible.

4. The AG has been slow-rolling turning over documents to a Congressional committee. Immediate aides and deputies to that same AG admit they knew about the operation and sent reports, e-mails, other written notifications to the AG.

5. He claims he never read them.

Incompetence or ignorance. Take your pick.

But, please, go back to getting free contraception whether it's wanted or not.

Things like getting people killed aren't all that important. Apparently not to you and certainly not to most of the press.

I should dig up all the threads/posts when ol' Dubya merely fired DOJ district attornies which was both his perogative as President and in keeping with long-standing tradition, i.e., a new President gets to have his guys in office to enforce those laws that he thinks are "good policy."

There were lots of them and many consecutive days of non-stop reporting/gossip on the matter in the media. For firing some lawyers.

Killing law enforcement agents and innocent civilians gets a "meh."

Sorry that bores you.






Actually I'm not.

[SportsFan68]

. . .


I should dig up all the threads/posts when ol' Dubya merely fired DOJ district attornies which was both his perogative as President and in keeping with long-standing tradition, i.e., a new President gets to have his guys in office to enforce those laws that he thinks are "good policy."

There were lots of them and many consecutive days of non-stop reporting/gossip on the matter in the media. For firing some lawyers.

Killing law enforcement agents and innocent civilians gets a "meh."

Sorry that bores you.






Actually I'm not.

There were no consecutive days of non-stop reporting when Bush killed the innocent civilians at that restaurant based on specious intelligence that Saddam Hussein was in it, and against all his senior military staff. There was one day. Then it went away until much later, when the part about it being against his senior staffers' urging came out.

[mrkelley23]

Flybrick:

I agree with you that Fast and Furious was a hideous mistake, and that people should be held accountable. I think the Obama administration is making a huge tactical mistake by letting Holder drag this out, because that means it's all going to come to a head just as the population is starting to pay attention to the presidential election. Holder should be gone. several people who worked for him should be gone. I don't dispute that one bit.

But please don't compare this to the Bush administration. The amount of comparatively hideous crimes that went on under his watch that were basically ignored by the media is monstrous. And I'm not talking about him firing people, which received an unwarranted amount of coverage.

Keep firing away. For the most part, I'm right there with you. But if you keep comparing this to my least favorite president ever (with the possible exception of Buchanan), I will be forced to match you post for post. And then this thread will grow as big as one of TMITSSS' climate threads.

[Flybrick]

I am not comparing Administrations directly, or at least that is not my intent.

I am comparing the amount of major media outlet coverage - print, TV, on-line - devoted to this as compared to the firing of some DOJ lawyers. As both are DOJ-related and involve the action/inaction of the AG, I thought it appropriate. One resulted in some unemployed lawyers. The other involved 300+ deaths.

That firings occured in the Bush Administration so I used that as the most recent example. Pick your own previous media bias towards an administration if that helps make my point better.

[silverscreenselect]

I am not comparing Administrations directly, or at least that is not my intent.

I am comparing the amount of major media outlet coverage - print, TV, on-line - devoted to this as compared to the firing of some DOJ lawyers. As both are DOJ-related and involve the action/inaction of the AG, I thought it appropriate. One resulted in some unemployed lawyers. The other involved 300+ deaths.

That firings occured in the Bush Administration so I used that as the most recent example. Pick your own previous media bias towards an administration if that helps make my point better.

While there is media bias, to a certain extent, the right wing facilitates this. It's not as if the right doesn't have its own outlets. Fox News is the single largest news network in the country in terms of total vewership, and right wing radio (Limbaugh, Hannity, Boortz, et al) have a lot more reach on a lot more powerful stations than NPR and those few left wing outlets there are out there. So they have the ability to get their message out there.

Unfortunately, they are very lacking either in basic newsgathering skills or in focusing a message. "Obama is bad (and substitute liberal or radical or whatever other term you want)" is not a focused message. It's a broadside. And when they give equal or greater time to every crackpot conspiracy idea (like the legions of birthers) out there as they do to a real scandal, it allows people to tune them out. If they had focused on this story from the start, instead of skipping from one "Obama is bad" tangent to another, it would have had a lot more traction. If the National Enquirer can make John Edwards' affair into a national issue by focused reporting, then Fox News certainly could have done so with this.

Watergate brought down Nixon because the news organizations realized there was a real story and stuck to it. If they had moved onto the next Nixon "scandal" a week or two later, there's no doubt in my mind he would have finished out his term as a relatively decently regarded President. But I've yet to see anyone at Fox News or anyone associated with any of the right wing radio crowd demonstrate 1% of the tenacity that Woodward and Bernstein, let alone their editors, did.

[Bob78164]

1. Your attention is not of my concern. You don't seem concerned with the "unintended consequences" of letting weapons be purchased knowingly illegally by bad guys by various departments of the federal government. Some of whom were employing some of those same bad guys. Others of whom were trying to stop the weapons at the border. Nobody was talking to anybody.

2. A Border Patrol agent was killed in Arizona by those weapons. An ICE agent (I've been saying DEA when it wasn't) was killed in Mexico by some of those weapons. Some 300 Mexicans have been killed by those weapons.

3. NOBODY has been held accountable for the operation or the deaths. Not one federal official has been found responsible.

4. The AG has been slow-rolling turning over documents to a Congressional committee. Immediate aides and deputies to that same AG admit they knew about the operation and sent reports, e-mails, other written notifications to the AG.

5. He claims he never read them.

Incompetence or ignorance. Take your pick.

But, please, go back to getting free contraception whether it's wanted or not.

Things like getting people killed aren't all that important. Apparently not to you and certainly not to most of the press.

I should dig up all the threads/posts when ol' Dubya merely fired DOJ district attornies which was both his perogative as President and in keeping with long-standing tradition, i.e., a new President gets to have his guys in office to enforce those laws that he thinks are "good policy."

There were lots of them and many consecutive days of non-stop reporting/gossip on the matter in the media. For firing some lawyers.

Killing law enforcement agents and innocent civilians gets a "meh."

Sorry that bores you.






Actually I'm not.

You've completely missed my point. I'm saying that particular horse (Fast and Furious was a terrible idea that should never have been implemented) is already dead, so you can stop beating it. Many of your posts in this thread, including the one that I replied to, are to the effect that Fast and Furious was a bad idea.

As for Holder's responsibility -- one of the unfortunate results of the current atmosphere of hyperpartisanship is that I have no confidence that the House majority is conducting a fair investigation, but I also have no confidence that the House minority would fairly follow any evidence that might exist. The actual memos that I've seen in this thread certainly don't inexorably lead me to the conclusion that Holder knew or should have known that gunrunning was occurring, which is the important question (and is crucially different from whether he knew that an operation of some sort was occurring). What the Congresscritters of both sides say about those memos, I have to treat as spin.

As for whether Holder is "slow rolling" the release of documents -- having participated in my share of document productions, I'm aware of the amount of time it can take. After all, the Justice Department employees who are tasked with pulling together responsive documents usually have other responsibilities as well. Such as, you know, fighting crime. Holder may in fact be slow rolling the production, but I'm certainly not going to accept Issa's characterization to that effect. --Bob

[mrkelley23]

1. Your attention is not of my concern. You don't seem concerned with the "unintended consequences" of letting weapons be purchased knowingly illegally by bad guys by various departments of the federal government. Some of whom were employing some of those same bad guys. Others of whom were trying to stop the weapons at the border. Nobody was talking to anybody.

2. A Border Patrol agent was killed in Arizona by those weapons. An ICE agent (I've been saying DEA when it wasn't) was killed in Mexico by some of those weapons. Some 300 Mexicans have been killed by those weapons.

3. NOBODY has been held accountable for the operation or the deaths. Not one federal official has been found responsible.

4. The AG has been slow-rolling turning over documents to a Congressional committee. Immediate aides and deputies to that same AG admit they knew about the operation and sent reports, e-mails, other written notifications to the AG.

5. He claims he never read them.

Incompetence or ignorance. Take your pick.

But, please, go back to getting free contraception whether it's wanted or not.

Things like getting people killed aren't all that important. Apparently not to you and certainly not to most of the press.

I should dig up all the threads/posts when ol' Dubya merely fired DOJ district attornies which was both his perogative as President and in keeping with long-standing tradition, i.e., a new President gets to have his guys in office to enforce those laws that he thinks are "good policy."

There were lots of them and many consecutive days of non-stop reporting/gossip on the matter in the media. For firing some lawyers.

Killing law enforcement agents and innocent civilians gets a "meh."

Sorry that bores you.






Actually I'm not.

You've completely missed my point. I'm saying that particular horse (Fast and Furious was a terrible idea that should never have been implemented) is already dead, so you can stop beating it. Many of your posts in this thread, including the one that I replied to, are to the effect that Fast and Furious was a bad idea.

As for Holder's responsibility -- one of the unfortunate results of the current atmosphere of hyperpartisanship is that I have no confidence that the House majority is conducting a fair investigation, but I also have no confidence that the House minority would fairly follow any evidence that might exist. The actual memos that I've seen in this thread certainly don't inexorably lead me to the conclusion that Holder knew or should have known that gunrunning was occurring, which is the important question (and is crucially different from whether he knew that an operation of some sort was occurring). What the Congresscritters of both sides say about those memos, I have to treat as spin.

As for whether Holder is "slow rolling" the release of documents -- having participated in my share of document productions, I'm aware of the amount of time it can take. After all, the Justice Department employees who are tasked with pulling together responsive documents usually have other responsibilities as well. Such as, you know, fighting crime. Holder may in fact be slow rolling the production, but I'm certainly not going to accept Issa's characterization to that effect. --Bob

Let me try, Fly:

Bob, you start off by saying that you concede that F&F was a bad idea. It happened under Holder's watch. It was a major program, judging by the numbers of guns that both sides concede are unaccounted for. I rarely see things as either/or, but this is one of those times. To quote flybrick "Incompetence or ignorance. Take your pick."

It's now clear that Holder is not going to resign unless he's pressured to. He should have been fired 6 months ago. Geithner should have been fired over a year ago. President Obama has missed the boat on these two, and possibly a couple others (Summers springs to mind.)

And the reason that Flybrick keeps posting essentially the same message over and over again is because his contention is that the major media are not covering the story, so he's reminding us from time to time. This is fundamentally different from posting provocative news stories, to try to spark discussion. Not saying better or worse, just different. It's closer to TMITSSS' one-sided telling of the climate science narrative.

[Flybrick]

Very good summary and explanation of my intent.

Save for

. It's closer to TMITSSS' one-sided telling of the climate science narrative.

becasue the "other side's story" is essentially "nothing to see here, move along."







And I dig TMITSS' threads to rebut the very nearly one-sided alarmist/man-made global warming hysteria. IMO, of course.

[minimetoo26]

1. Your attention is not of my concern. You don't seem concerned with the "unintended consequences" of letting weapons be purchased knowingly illegally by bad guys by various departments of the federal government. Some of whom were employing some of those same bad guys. Others of whom were trying to stop the weapons at the border. Nobody was talking to anybody.

2. A Border Patrol agent was killed in Arizona by those weapons. An ICE agent (I've been saying DEA when it wasn't) was killed in Mexico by some of those weapons. Some 300 Mexicans have been killed by those weapons.

3. NOBODY has been held accountable for the operation or the deaths. Not one federal official has been found responsible.

4. The AG has been slow-rolling turning over documents to a Congressional committee. Immediate aides and deputies to that same AG admit they knew about the operation and sent reports, e-mails, other written notifications to the AG.

5. He claims he never read them.

Incompetence or ignorance. Take your pick.

But, please, go back to getting free contraception whether it's wanted or not.

Things like getting people killed aren't all that important. Apparently not to you and certainly not to most of the press.

I should dig up all the threads/posts when ol' Dubya merely fired DOJ district attornies which was both his perogative as President and in keeping with long-standing tradition, i.e., a new President gets to have his guys in office to enforce those laws that he thinks are "good policy."

There were lots of them and many consecutive days of non-stop reporting/gossip on the matter in the media. For firing some lawyers.

Killing law enforcement agents and innocent civilians gets a "meh."

Sorry that bores you.






Actually I'm not.

You've completely missed my point. I'm saying that particular horse (Fast and Furious was a terrible idea that should never have been implemented) is already dead, so you can stop beating it. Many of your posts in this thread, including the one that I replied to, are to the effect that Fast and Furious was a bad idea.

As for Holder's responsibility -- one of the unfortunate results of the current atmosphere of hyperpartisanship is that I have no confidence that the House majority is conducting a fair investigation, but I also have no confidence that the House minority would fairly follow any evidence that might exist. The actual memos that I've seen in this thread certainly don't inexorably lead me to the conclusion that Holder knew or should have known that gunrunning was occurring, which is the important question (and is crucially different from whether he knew that an operation of some sort was occurring). What the Congresscritters of both sides say about those memos, I have to treat as spin.

As for whether Holder is "slow rolling" the release of documents -- having participated in my share of document productions, I'm aware of the amount of time it can take. After all, the Justice Department employees who are tasked with pulling together responsive documents usually have other responsibilities as well. Such as, you know, fighting crime. Holder may in fact be slow rolling the production, but I'm certainly not going to accept Issa's characterization to that effect. --Bob

Let me try, Fly:

Bob, you start off by saying that you concede that F&F was a bad idea. It happened under Holder's watch. It was a major program, judging by the numbers of guns that both sides concede are unaccounted for. I rarely see things as either/or, but this is one of those times. To quote flybrick "Incompetence or ignorance. Take your pick."

It's now clear that Holder is not going to resign unless he's pressured to. He should have been fired 6 months ago. Geithner should have been fired over a year ago. President Obama has missed the boat on these two, and possibly a couple others (Summers springs to mind.)

And the reason that Flybrick keeps posting essentially the same message over and over again is because his contention is that the major media are not covering the story, so he's reminding us from time to time. This is fundamentally different from posting provocative news stories, to try to spark discussion. Not saying better or worse, just different. It's closer to TMITSSS' one-sided telling of the climate science narrative.

It might be more effective for him to send daily letters to the editor of his local paper, then. All of our eyes have just glazed over at this point. I only read the thread because I saw different names posting in it.

He could pick a wider audience than us if he wants publicity. If he just wants to vent, this is the perfect place. It's better than having him rant to his poor wife every night to the point she can only reply, "That's nice, dear" or "How distressing!" without hearing a word he says...

[Bob78164]

Let me try, Fly:

Bob, you start off by saying that you concede that F&F was a bad idea. It happened under Holder's watch. It was a major program, judging by the numbers of guns that both sides concede are unaccounted for. I rarely see things as either/or, but this is one of those times. To quote flybrick "Incompetence or ignorance. Take your pick."

It's now clear that Holder is not going to resign unless he's pressured to. He should have been fired 6 months ago. Geithner should have been fired over a year ago. President Obama has missed the boat on these two, and possibly a couple others (Summers springs to mind.)

And the reason that Flybrick keeps posting essentially the same message over and over again is because his contention is that the major media are not covering the story, so he's reminding us from time to time. This is fundamentally different from posting provocative news stories, to try to spark discussion. Not saying better or worse, just different. It's closer to TMITSSS' one-sided telling of the climate science narrative.

Thanks. That's helpful.

I'm pretty sure I don't see this as either/or the way you do. I can envision scenarios (such as the one described in the Wikipedia article on Fast and Furious) where Holder's failure to know that gunrunning was involved is not, in my opinion, a firing offense.

And that's particularly true in today's toxic confirmation atmosphere. Who knows how long it would be before Senate Republicans let a nominee come to a vote?

As for Geithner, I honestly don't know what your issue is with him. (I assume it's his post-confirmation performance, rather than the issues that arose during his confirmation hearings.) --Bob

[mrkelley23]

Let me try, Fly:

Bob, you start off by saying that you concede that F&F was a bad idea. It happened under Holder's watch. It was a major program, judging by the numbers of guns that both sides concede are unaccounted for. I rarely see things as either/or, but this is one of those times. To quote flybrick "Incompetence or ignorance. Take your pick."

It's now clear that Holder is not going to resign unless he's pressured to. He should have been fired 6 months ago. Geithner should have been fired over a year ago. President Obama has missed the boat on these two, and possibly a couple others (Summers springs to mind.)

And the reason that Flybrick keeps posting essentially the same message over and over again is because his contention is that the major media are not covering the story, so he's reminding us from time to time. This is fundamentally different from posting provocative news stories, to try to spark discussion. Not saying better or worse, just different. It's closer to TMITSSS' one-sided telling of the climate science narrative.

Thanks. That's helpful.

I'm pretty sure I don't see this as either/or the way you do. I can envision scenarios (such as the one described in the Wikipedia article on Fast and Furious) where Holder's failure to know that gunrunning was involved is not, in my opinion, a firing offense.

And that's particularly true in today's toxic confirmation atmosphere. Who knows how long it would be before Senate Republicans let a nominee come to a vote?

As for Geithner, I honestly don't know what your issue is with him. (I assume it's his post-confirmation performance, rather than the issues that arose during his confirmation hearings.) --Bob

That's the crux of our disagreement, then. A program was instituted in which hundreds of people have already been killed, and hundreds more probably will, for which our government agencies bear at least partial responsibility. Holder is ultimately responsible for that failure, whether he knew about it or not. (I've read the Wikipedia article. Forgetting the completely useless nature of Wikipedia as a primary source, I still don't see any scenario mentioned there which even slightly absolves Holder of responsibility. In fact, it highlights some of the suspicious statements and behaviors by Holder since the story broke. But I guess that's viewing it through my lens.)

I don't care about Issa's investigation and whether it's toxic or not. There are enough primary sources out already to convince me he's responsible. If he had any sense of dignity, he would've resigned already. Or at least stepped away to spend more time with his family.

As far as Geithner, Ron Suskind's book rings very true to me. If the Geithner stories are even partially true, he should have been fired.

[Bob78164]

That's the crux of our disagreement, then. A program was instituted in which hundreds of people have already been killed, and hundreds more probably will, for which our government agencies bear at least partial responsibility. Holder is ultimately responsible for that failure, whether he knew about it or not. (I've read the Wikipedia article. Forgetting the completely useless nature of Wikipedia as a primary source, I still don't see any scenario mentioned there which even slightly absolves Holder of responsibility. In fact, it highlights some of the suspicious statements and behaviors by Holder since the story broke. But I guess that's viewing it through my lens.)

I agree with you that Wikipedia is not a reliable source for something like this. I tried to phrase what I wrote to make clear that I was viewing it as a plausible scenario, not necessarily the truth. Specifically, I can envision Holder assuming that Fast and Furious was nothing more than a larger version of Operation Wide Receiver, which did not involve gunrunning. He didn't ask the right question ("We're not gunrunning, right?") because the possibility that it might literally never occurred to him, and the ATF agents who should have known better than to engage in gunrunning may have deliberately concealed the gunrunning aspects of the operation from Holder.

Understand, I'm not saying this is what actually happened, or that if it is, it's good management. I'm just saying that if this or something like it is what happened, then I have no thirst for Holder's scalp. And I don't trust either party's Congressional investigators to dig out all of the facts, rather than just those from which they expect to receive political advantage or resist political damage. --Bob

[Flybrick]

Holder's chief of staff, his deputy chief of staff, his prime deputy, two Justice officials working at the NSC, all knew of the operation and its details. Some of them sent him reports. He, by his own admission, didn't even read the executive summaries of those reports.

This was a multi-agency operation, even multi-departmental. Such things are briefed at weekly, if not daily, staff meetings.
So my questions are:

why hasn't ANYONE been held accountable?

Why were those agents who blew the whistle retaliated against? And why no accountability for those that did?

Why haven't ANY of his prime assistants who DID know - his chief of staff, his deputy chief of staff, his prime deputy - been held accountable?

Why didn't Holder read the reports or even the executive summaries?

Ignorance or incompetence. Either characteristic is unsuitable for the Attorney General's responsibilities. He's the guy in charge. He's the guy to be held accountable.

We don't even have to go into his releasing the very belated condolences to the dead Border Patrol agent's family to the press before giving it to the family.

[Bob78164]

Holder's chief of staff, his deputy chief of staff, his prime deputy, two Justice officials working at the NSC, all knew of the operation and its details. Some of them sent him reports. He, by his own admission, didn't even read the executive summaries of those reports.

I'm interested in primary sources supporting these claims. --Bob

[BackInTex]

I'm interested in primary sources supporting these claims. --Bob

Why? Because they weren't pulled of some left wing blog or website like all the stuff you post? You don't seem to be concerned much about sources to the stuff you post. You just take your DNC orders and post.

[Bob78164]

I'm interested in primary sources supporting these claims. --Bob

Why? Because they weren't pulled of some left wing blog or website like all the stuff you post? You don't seem to be concerned much about sources to the stuff you post. You just take your DNC orders and post.

Perhaps you misunderstand the meaning of the phrase "primary source." When I talk about what folks say, I post the video, if available. That way people can decide for themselves whether my take on it is or is not fair.

Brick asserted that certain memos were sent containing certain statements and that Holder did or did not take certain actions. Presumably, those memos are in the public record, as is relevant testimony. I don't care about someone else's interpretation of these sources. I'd like to read them for myself. --Bob

[Flybrick]

This article's tone is very slanted, but the fact remains, that DHS Secretary did not say "no" to the question.

http://www.brenhambanner.com/news/napol ... 963f4.html

WASHINGTON, D.C. - Department of Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano did not rule out the possibility that the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms misled her department about the intent of Operation Fast & Furious to put guns in the hands of Mexican drug cartels.

Napolitano testified Wednesday at a U.S. House subcommittee hearing.

"I hope they did not," Napolitano responded to Congressman Michael McCaul (R-Texas), who asked whether DHS or the Immigration and Customs Enforcement agent assigned to assist ATF had been misled.

For those who have an eye-glazing problem, my apologies. I hope you will be kind enough to let those who wish to read this, do so. I had no idea you spoke for "all."

[Flybrick]

So boys being naughty boys with hookers in Columbia and metrosexual federal employees being profligate with tax dollars for Vegas conferences are major scandals and get much media and political attention, but actually causing the deaths of 200+ Mexicans, a US Border Patrol agent, and a US DEA agent gets, "meh..."


Now it's grenades as well as nearly 2,000 guns.

http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/26/obama ... ents-show/

According to an internal email that was provided to Congress by the Department of Justice and first reported by CBS News’ Sharyl Attkisson, ATF began watching accused smuggler Jean Baptiste Kingery’s AK-47 purchases in 2004. In the 2009 internal ATF email, Obama administration officials admitted they believed Kingery was “trafficking them into Mexico.”

The 2009 email shows the ATF officials had then become aware of Kingery’s alleged grenade trafficking.

The administration officials then put together a plan: They secretly intercepted Kingery’s grenade parts after he ordered them online, marked them with special paint and gave them back to him. Then, they allowed him to take those grenade parts into Mexico. ATF was going to try to find his weapons factory there — even though the U.S. government and its federal law enforcement agencies have no jurisdiction in Mexico — with the apparent goal of building a bigger case against Kingery.

“Even in a post blast, as long as the safety lever is recovered we will be able to identify these tagged grenades,” an official wrote in one email.