This also shouldn't fly under the (political) radar

[Bob Juch]

The NRA's position is that anyone should be able to buy any sort of weapon without restriction.

In case you haven't been paying attention, Attorny General Holder and the Department of Justice, the subordinate agencies of the FBI, the DEA, and, most especially, the ATFE, used US taxpayer funds to let firearms be transported across international borders by and for vicious drug cartels. Those guns were then used to kill several hundred, at least, Mexicans, and a Border Patrol agent on US soil. A DEA agent was killed in Mexico by another one of those weapons.

The ones supposed to enforce the laws already on the books regarding gun ownership violated those laws and lots of people got killed because of it.

Do try to keep up.

I've very well aware of that. My point is that many on the Right would like those firearm laws to go away.

[Flybrick]

I've very well aware of that. My point is that many on the Right would like those firearm laws to go away.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... ned-fatal/

The central characters in the failed “Fast and Furious” firearms investigation were 19 men and one woman, all legal residents of the U.S., accused of laying down hundreds of thousands of dollars in illicit cash at Phoenix-area gun shops to buy an arsenal of high-powered weapons for Mexican drug smugglers.

Between September 2009 and December 2010, congressional investigators said, they purchased or aided in the purchase of more than 2,000 AK-47 assault weapons, Barrett .50-caliber sniper rifles, FN 5.7mm semi-automatic pistols and other assorted rifles, shotguns and handguns that later were “walked” into Mexico. About half the weapons remain unaccounted for.

They paid cash, as much as $900,000, and with each purchase they signed their names on Form 4473, a Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) document, swearing under the threat of committing a felony that they were not purchasing the weapons for someone else — that they were not “straw buyers.”

But they were, and the ATF knew it.

Perhaps enforce the existing laws instead of always seeking more laws? Not to mention, criminals, by definition, don't follow the law. Only law-abiding citizens do.

Murder, physical violence, assualt, armed robbery, etc, etc, etc, are already illegal. Yet they still occur.



Meanwhile back at the Holder Ranch:


http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1211/69680.html

False denials the Justice Department sent to Congress about the Fast and Furious gunrunning investigation came from top officials at the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Arizona and at the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives, documents released Friday by the Obama administration show.

[silverscreenselect]

Not to mention, criminals, by definition, don't follow the law. Only law-abiding citizens do.

Murder, physical violence, assualt, armed robbery, etc, etc, etc, are already illegal. Yet they still occur.

Some would-be criminals or shady businessmen will follow the law if they believe the risks of punishment outweigh the rewards to be gained. Just as some would-be thieves, muggers, and rapists do not do so for the same reason. Just because criminal laws don't curtail all criminal activity doesn't mean they don't curtail some of it.

And if I had to guess, I'd guess that the number of people shot in this country by "law abiding citizens" (people who don't get guns for the specific purpose of committing a crime) outweighs the number shot by "criminals." I was robbed by a criminal with a gun. I'm still alive in one piece. My neighbor got in a drunken argument with a "law abiding citizen." He isn't.

[Flybrick]

And that murder was illegal. As was the robbery. Yet they still performed the acts.

And did AG Holder supply the guns?

He, and his department, did in the murders of 300+ Mexicans, a DEA agent, and a Border Patrol agent.

Nearly 2,000 guns. Half are still missing.

[Flybrick]

Looks like DEA was doing a similar "walking" operation except for money laundering. As there are statutes on the books regarding aiding cartels, specifically, and any operation involving the transfer of funds to a cartel for investigative means MUST, by law, have an approved application from Department of the Treasury.

Seems DEA did send money and didn't ask permission and millions of US taxpayer funds went into Sinoloa (sp?) Cartel bank accounts.

Unable to post the link for some reason.


This all sounds like the title of my long-in-progress novel titled "Lawyers, Guns, and Money*."




*from the Warren Zevon song of the same title

[silverscreenselect]

Although I'm in general agreement with many of your posts in this thread, I'd point out that the policy of selling guns to Mexican cartels as part of a "sting" operation didn't originate with Holder or Obama. The DEA was doing this for several years under the Bush administration as well, with an equal lack of results. The only differences were (1) the larger scale of Fast and Furious than earlier operations, and (2) the fact that the guns were used to kill a couple of federal agents rather than merely other drug dealers and Mexican civilians, neither of which categories would have merited an iota of attention from the American public. In all these cases, the key government decisions appear to have been made by lower level career agency employees rather than ever changing political appointees.

It is Holder's and Obama's responsibility just as it was Bush's, Ashcroft's and Gonzales' responsibility before that. And Holder definitely apepars to be guilty of actively trying to cover up this mess. But, this is not some new level of misfeasance or malfeasance perpetrated by Obama and his associates, but, sadly, just another case of Obama proving to be exactly the same as Bush.

[Flybrick]

The cast is large, so I'll recap:

ATFE (actually BATFE) sold guns (let guns be sold to straw buyers) that were knowingly bound for Mexican cartels.

DEA laundered money.

DOJ runs both.

And nobody knew nuthin'.


A couple of telling differences between the Bush-era "Wide Receiver" and Obama's "Fast and Furious" is that "Wide Receiver" was a joint US-Mexican government operation using only a handful of traceable weapons. But I'm all for a wider investigation into this operation as well.

"Fast and Furious" used nearly 2,000 weapons, did NOT involve the Mexican government, indeed, the ATF lied to the Mexican government saying there was no such operation.

And your "only" point of a couple of dead US federal agents is a pretty damn big one.

Not to mention some 300 dead Mexicans.

If you truly believe that "lower level officials" did this without DOJ leadership's knowledge than you are either niave or DOJ leadership is incompetent.

An FBI/DEA/ATF combined operation is NOT handled by lower level operatives. There is already written documentation that NSC officials, Holder's Chief of Staff, one of his Deputy AG's, knew of the operation. They were notified/briefed and there is a paper trail.

But no of them recalls it or knew details?

Illegal or incompetent, take your pick.

[Flybrick]

If I understand the context of the Bored's recent trend of "Found it!," then here it is for Operation Fast and Furious:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_162-5 ... gulations/

Documents obtained by CBS News show that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) discussed using their covert operation "Fast and Furious" to argue for controversial new rules about gun sales.

ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns." Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information.

On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF's Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:

"Bill - can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks."

Several gun dealers who cooperated with ATF told CBS News and Congressional investigators they only went through with suspicious sales because ATF asked them to.

There are already hundreds of restrictive gun laws already on the books.

Why not start with enforcing those? And acknowledge that criminals, by definition, aren't going to follow those laws.

[Flybrick]

So AG Holder appeared before Congress today:

http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer. ... ied/244706

Attorney General Eric Holder denied that anybody at the Department of Justice lied about the Fast and Furious program that allowed guns to fall into the hands of Mexican drug lords, even though he admitted that the DOJ sent inaccurate information to Congress.

And to ensure he's not accountable:

http://dailycaller.com/2011/12/08/gun-c ... os-emails/

Attorney General Eric Holder said he hasn’t read emails between two different Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives officials detailing their intent to use Operation Fast and Furious consequences to further a gun-control agenda.

Despite CBS News publishing a wide reaching report on midday Wednesday about the emails, Holder said that he still hasn’t read them as of Thursday morning.

So to paraphrase, "Nobody lied, but people died."


http://dailycaller.com/2011/12/08/holde ... ng-to-die/

“I think the way it was carried out, I would certainly say it was flawed,” Holder responded. “Reckless? Yeah, I’d probably agree with that. I mean, it was done inappropriately and has had tragic consequences, and as I said in my opening statement it is going to continue to have tragic consequences.”

“More people are going to die, probably,” Poe interjected.

“Unfortunately I think that’s probably true,” Holder admitted.

UFB.

[Flybrick]

http://dailycaller.com/2011/12/13/56th- ... signation/

56 Members of Congress have called for the Attorney General to resign.

56.

Granted, all are Republican.

But can you imagine the 24/7 TV/newspaper coverage if the party affliations of the antagonists were reversed?

Gonzalez had to go because he fired district attornies as had been historically the case under every administration.

Holder got somebody killed. Actually, a lot of somebodies.

So either he knew of it or he didn't.

Either way he is responsible.

[Bob Juch]

http://dailycaller.com/2011/12/13/56th- ... signation/

56 Members of Congress have called for the Attorney General to resign.

56.

Granted, all are Republican.

But can you imagine the 24/7 TV/newspaper coverage if the party affliations of the antagonists were reversed?

Gonzalez had to go because he fired district attornies as had been historically the case under every administration.

Holder got somebody killed. Actually, a lot of somebodies.

So either he knew of it or he didn't.

Either way he is responsible.

Only 56?

[Flybrick]

http://dailycaller.com/2011/12/07/ny-de ... ter-video/

New York Democratic Rep. Nydia Velazquez admitted she did not know what Operation Fast and Furious was at a Congressional Hispanic Caucus event on Tuesday.

Velazquez’ fellow New York Democrat, Rep. Jose Enrique Serrano, also admitted to TheDC that he was unaware of Fast and Furious when approached for questions about the scandal.

[Bob78164]

http://dailycaller.com/2011/12/07/ny-de ... ter-video/

New York Democratic Rep. Nydia Velazquez admitted she did not know what Operation Fast and Furious was at a Congressional Hispanic Caucus event on Tuesday.

Velazquez’ fellow New York Democrat, Rep. Jose Enrique Serrano, also admitted to TheDC that he was unaware of Fast and Furious when approached for questions about the scandal.

I've watched the video. I'm somewhat skeptical that the story is a fair summary of the interaction. Cf. Shirley Sherrod.

The problem is that the video cuts off immediately after Rep. Velazquez murmurs "no, no." It's impossible to tell whether she's agreeing with her interlocutor that she's not familiar with Fast and Furious or saying, for instance, "no, no, I'm not going to discuss that here and now," or even "no, no, that's not what I'm saying, of course I'm familiar with Fast and Furious." A more responsible presentation would have presented enough of the video to give watchers confidence that the interaction was presented in full and in context. --Bob

[Jeemie]

I've watched the video. I'm somewhat skeptical that the story is a fair summary of the interaction. Cf. Shirley Sherrod.

The problem is that the video cuts off immediately after Rep. Velazquez murmurs "no, no." It's impossible to tell whether she's agreeing with her interlocutor that she's not familiar with Fast and Furious or saying, for instance, "no, no, I'm not going to discuss that here and now," or even "no, no, that's not what I'm saying, of course I'm familiar with Fast and Furious." A more responsible presentation would have presented enough of the video to give watchers confidence that the interaction was presented in full and in context. --Bob

Although I know that type of video editing goes on, I don't share your skepticism.

Velazquez looks genuinely confused by the question.

I think she didn't know anything about it.

[Flybrick]

57

http://dailycaller.com/2011/12/13/rep-b ... signation/

[mrkelley23]

I"m betting the number will be closer to 250 by Jan. 31. Especially if we have at least two different winners of Republican nominating contests. If I were a Congressman, it would be 58.

Although I can't admit to being glad to be in the same camp with Dan Quayle's son.

[Flybrick]

I am most curious to know why this:

http://dailycaller.com/2011/12/15/73-co ... ic-holder/

isn't getting airtime/coverage by the networks and the coastal papers. You'd think such a thing would draw endless coverage



I admit I am unaware if such a thing was done during AG Gonzalez' watch, but I think I'd remember it if so. Yet the coverage and calls for his resigning were successful for simply firing political appointees.

Holder got folks killed. Funny ol' world.

[Bob Juch]

I am most curious to know why this:

http://dailycaller.com/2011/12/15/73-co ... ic-holder/

isn't getting airtime/coverage by the networks and the coastal papers. You'd think such a thing would draw endless coverage



I admit I am unaware if such a thing was done during AG Gonzalez' watch, but I think I'd remember it if so. Yet the coverage and calls for his resigning were successful for simply firing political appointees.

Holder got folks killed. Funny ol' world.

There are 242 Republicans in the House. How come there are only 73 cosponsors?

[Bob78164]

I admit I am unaware if such a thing was done during AG Gonzalez' watch, but I think I'd remember it if so. Yet the coverage and calls for his resigning were successful for simply firing political appointees.

Perhaps this will help your memory. It's a story in which Senators Coburn, Specter, and Grassley either outright call for Gonzales's resgnation or at least harshly criticize him. --Bob

[Flybrick]

You'd have to ask them.

There were more than 2,00 guns "walked" by the BATFE, funded in part by DEA and FBI. Those guns killed more than 300 Mexicans, a DEA agent in Mexico, and a Border Patrol agent in Arizona.

Only 600-1000-ish of those guns have been accounted for.

Where are the rest?

[SportsFan68]

I am most curious to know why this:

http://dailycaller.com/2011/12/15/73-co ... ic-holder/

isn't getting airtime/coverage by the networks and the coastal papers. You'd think such a thing would draw endless coverage



I admit I am unaware if such a thing was done during AG Gonzalez' watch, but I think I'd remember it if so. Yet the coverage and calls for his resigning were successful for simply firing political appointees.

Holder got folks killed. Funny ol' world.

Bush got folks killed, Brick. Real funny, or at any rate, he got some good laughs out of it. The coverage has vanished -- all the serious reports of the press club skit have vanished; only a few blogs remain. It's probably up to you to bring it up in the same breath as Holder.

Here's what I'm referring to; I posted this in April.

Bush didn't take the rest of his job seriously, BiT. A little over a year after he took Saddam down looking for WMDs that didn't exist, about 800 U.S. troops had died in the invasion and the attempt to find them. He made fun of the attempt (checking under pillows, rugs, etc. -- "Nope, no WMDs in there either...").

Bush didn't care, either. He bombed a restaurant, filled with God only knows how many innocent people inside, on some specious intelligence that Saddam was in it against the recommendation of 100% of his top military advisers.

[Flybrick]

Bob#s, I'm well aware of those calls for Gonzalez' resignations and referred to them. I'm talking about a vote of no confidence.


SportsFan, got it, you don't like Bush and think his humor was distasteful. He also got just a little bit of media coverage over the topic. Join Amnesty International's incessent calls for his arrest if that helps you.

He's no longer President nor is his Attorney General responsible for killing Mexicans, a DEA agent, and a Border Patrol agent.

The current one has.

[SportsFan68]

Bob#s, I'm well aware of those calls for Gonzalez' resignations and referred to them. I'm talking about a vote of no confidence.


SportsFan, got it, you don't like Bush and think his humor was distasteful. He also got just a little bit of media coverage over the topic. Join Amnesty International's incessent calls for his arrest if that helps you.

He's no longer President nor is his Attorney General responsible for killing Mexicans, a DEA agent, and a Border Patrol agent.

The current one has.

You don't got it, Brick. It wasn't distasteful, it was horrific, and I would cite the parents of the dead troops saying so if I could find them. Those quotes have vanished along with all the news reports.

Bush killed innocent people at that restaurant, yet no comment from you, even after the news came out that it was 100% against the express recommendation of his top military advisers. I don't object to the grief you're giving Holder. I object to your laying into Holder and giving Bush a pass.

[Flybrick]

Ok, I commented on this then. Dark humor is just that; you may not like it, you make think it horrific; I don't. I'm used to it, I've used it, and I'm ok with it. It's a coping mechanism for dealing with very serious things that you're gonna have to deal with the next day. And the next. And the next. It's how soldiers, cops, firefighters, et al, make it through.

You say Bush overrode his 100% per cent of his generals and ordered a strike? Er, that is his perogative as CinC. I also dispute your assumption, but I am NOT going to get into a previous administration argument with you further. Mistakes happen in war; people get killed who shouldn't have.

Obama overrode his generals to strike bin Laden. And he was right. But it could've gone south very quickly. But it was his choice as CinC.

Fast and Furious was a law enforcement operation that went south. It violated laws, not generals' advice. It sent weapons to criminals - drug cartels not a military force. It was done without the consent of the affected government. Indeed, the fact was denied to that government.

A US Border Patrol agent, a law enforcement officer, not a soldier, was killed by those illegally walked guns.

It was done, partly, to help get stricter gun laws in place when the existing gun laws were violated to conduct the operation.

But ultimately, Holder either lied or didn't know what his department was doing. Either way the fact demands accountablity.

A joint ATF/DEA/FBI/ICE (at least) operation and he knew nothing about it and isn't holding anyone accountable. He has and is withholding evidence from Congress; he misled Congress in an official letter of explanation, then pulled it back quibbling over the definition of "lying."

Again, the Bush Administration was crucified for a lot of things; all day, every day. Deservedly in a lot of cases. And they are gone.

I happen to think this is one thing that the current, sitting, wanting another chance at it, Administration should be held accountable publicly and repeatedly for this crime and cover-up.

[Flybrick]

http://dailycaller.com/2011/12/15/brian ... animously/

Late Wednesday night, on the eve of the one year anniversary of Border Patrol agent Brian Terry’s murder with weapons sold during Operation Fast and Furious, the House of Representatives passed the Brian A. Terry Memorial Act of 2011 by unanimous consent.