Paging Dr. Suchard (again)

[wintergreen48]

OK, this time I'm not wondering about whether or not I'm blowing up my liver by taking too much Tylenol to deal with a migraine. My curiousity is now focused on killing other people, so to speak, on two points, and since you are the World's Greatest Authority on matters toxicological (you are the only expert I 'know,' so, that makes you the World's Greatest Authority), I thought I would bother you with these questions.

1. In some thriller/mystery novels, evildoers use chemicals that paralyze their victims, and they do their dirty work while the victim is conscious but unable to move. I know that when people are executed by lethal injection, the executioners use a cocktail of drugs, one of which is a paralytic agent that supposedly has this effect of paralyzing but not killing the executionee (other drugs take care of the killing), and I know that curare can serve as a paralytic agent for at least some muscle groups (I believe that curare actually kills by paralyzing the respiratory system if a large enough dose is administered). So here's my question: is there in fact some chemical or poison that would paralyze someone to the extent that he/she could not move at all, but would not kill her/him (assuming that there is a non-lethal dose), but he/she would still be 'conscious,' to the extent that he/she would be aware of what is happening? or is that just something that mystery novelists come up with?

2. Lots of people get killed by carbon monoxide poisoning, which picks up at this time of year due to people being in enclosed spaces and using heating systems that, if they do not work/vent properly, release carbon monoxide into the enclosed space. You hear about people who have fuel-burning space heaters, for example, that release CO that kills silently. So question number two: is there some kind of ballpark figure for how long it would take for someone to be killed by something like this, assuming that they were in an enclosed space (their house) and the space heater was was steadily doing its CO emitting thing? I know that CO is very opportunistic, to the extent that the lungs (well, the bloodstream) seem to prefer sucking up CO rather than O2 if given the chance, but I was wondering if CO poisoning is the kind of thing that is a problem over a long span of time, or if it's the kind of thing that can nail you in a matter of hours (or even less) in a 'typical' situation?

[jsuchard]

Question 1: Is there a toxin that can paralyze someone, but they can still stay alert and not die?

Basic answer = No.

Firstly, it wouldn't work with curare or some other paralyzing agent. To render a person motionless would also paralyze their respiratory muscles, and they would die from lack of breathing (hypoxia, hypercapnea, acidosis, et cetera). There just isn't such a toxin that paralyzes your voluntary muscles without getting the diaphragm as well. Fortunately, though, these drugs don't paralyze your heart and smooth muscle in your blood vessels; otherwise we'd all die if we were given general anesthesia. Now, if someone were around with a bag-valve mask and manually ventilated the victim, they would remain alert but helpless. You occasionally hear in the news about some patient who "wakes up" during surgery, which is the same kind of thing.

There are some drugs like ketamine that will render someone virtually motionless without actually paralyzing them, and they still breathe on their own. However, such drugs are very sedating, and the victim wouldn't remember a thing.

Now, it is remotely possible to dose someone with just the right of paralytic that they are severely weakened, but can still breathe just enough to survive. Pretty damn unlikely though.

[silvercamaro]

Hmmnn. Somebody seems to have started working on his novel.

Either that, or we'll soon be reading about him in the tabloids.

[Beebs52]

Hmmnn. Somebody seems to have started working on his novel.

Either that, or we'll soon be reading about him in the tabloids.

Maybe it will be a general cleanup of all the poptards.

[jsuchard]

Question 2: How long does it take to kill a person with CO, and is it cumulative or "all-or-nothing"?

This is a very difficult question to answer, because there are so many variables to consider: how badly is the water heater malfunctioning?, how large is the house?, how air-tight is the house?, where is the person in the house with respect to the CO-producing appliance?, how quickly is the person breathing?, and so on ad infinitum.

In a worst-case scenario, breathing 100% CO, you would go unconscious in several seconds simply due to lack of oxygen (the same thing would happen if you breathed pure nitrogen gas). But it is easily possible in more realistic situations to die within a few hours at much lower inhaled CO concentrations, say, with a running car in a closed garage.

As a general rule, CO poisoning is not cumulative, although that is somewhat oversimplifying the situation. People who smoke cigarettes routinely get carboxyhemoblobin levels in the 10-12% range, where they might start to experience some mild symptoms (headache, nausea, or dizziness), and cigar user get a bit higher than that. However, at night their levels go down to normal (1-2%) since they obviously stopped smoking to sleep. But I don't consider smokers to be CO-poisoned. If, on the other hand, you were exposed to CO at work [like a patient I saw once] and routinely got headaches and nausea [that he and his coworkers always blamed on the 'flu', until the day they started passing out], you might develop some chronic neurologic problems.

[wintergreen48]

Thank you, sir, I appreciate your erudition.

It did seem unlikely that you could paralyze someone completely without wiping out respiration (I know that experiments have been done with curare where the, um, subject was completely paralyzed but the torturer, I mean, the experimenter, provided for ventilation, but I didn't think it would work otherwise (that is, they couldn't breathe on their own).

Back to the lab...

[tanstaafl2]

I wonder if one could give the patient, umm, I mean victim, the equivalent of an epidural or spinal anesthesia high enough to cause near total quadriplegia but maintain at least some level of respiratory effort.

At around C-5 you can maintain some degree of respiratory function, although likely much decreased, but get paralysis of the lower body and cause significant limitation and weakness of the upper body. At C-5 you might get shoulder and upper arm movement but paralyze the hands and wrists.

That would certainly be a rather unpleasant predicament to be in!

Of course they could still potentially talk. And scream. Although with reduced respiratory capacity it might be a fairly quiet scream. And besides, thats what gags are for...

Not sure one could do the injection to insure you get exactly the level you were aiming for though. Might have to carefully titrate the injection.

Of course serial torturers usually have a nice quiet place to do that sort of thing and lots of time on their hands...

[tlynn78]

Back to the lab...

You forgot:

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAhaha



I had an excellent idea for a murder mystery last night, but unfortunately, like most of my best ideas, it scampered through my head and left, leaving no trace behind.

t.

[peacock2121]

Sting keeps on telling people I am killing him by putting a small amount of antifreeze in his adult beverage each evening. He seems to think that will eventually off him.

I'll let you know if it works.

[tlynn78]

Sting keeps on telling people I am killing him by putting a small amount of antifreeze in his adult beverage each evening. He seems to think that will eventually off him.

Psst, Pea!

I think the 'adult beverage' part of the equation counteracts teh antifreeze part. You'll have to think of something else. I don't recommend cliffs or lakes.


t.