McGwire clean??? Who would have thunk it?????

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rayxtwo · #1 Post by **rayxtwo** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:22 pm

I'm not one to say I told you so, but....

[img][img]http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e276/ ... oldyou.jpg[/img]

(here's the one I wanted to use. said bandwidth excedded)

http://photobucket.com/mediadetail/?med ... geOffset=1

A few days after he refused to answer questions everybody was so sure he was on the juice. every redio station in St. Louis had in the Bar-B-Que pit but one voice stepped up to defend him.

Me.

The radio host asked my why I thought he didn't cheat and I said because I didn't think he would want his son to think he was a cheater. The host then asked me if I thought he cheated, I told him "NO!"

Feels good to be right once in awhile.

Ray[/img]

#2 Post by **littlebeast13** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:27 pm

Huh!?!?!?!?!?

lb13

T_Bone0806 · #3 Post by **T_Bone0806** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:32 pm

I'm not too sure that this list is the be-all and end-all of the situation.

#4 Post by **littlebeast13** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:37 pm

T_Bone0806 wrote:I'm not too sure that this list is the be-all and end-all of the situation.

Is that what's in the Spoiler? All I see is a red X....

The name-naming part of this report is an absolute joke.... adn the naivety (sp?) of the general public in believing this is the "be-all and end-all" list of "cheaters" has turned the steroid circus into a full-blown travesty....

lb13

mrkelley23 · #5 Post by **mrkelley23** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:37 pm

The only reason McGwire's name is not on THE LIST is because he declined to be interviewed, and nobody ratted him out.

If you think McGwire went from this:

to this:

via nothing but clean living, you probably think Missouri still has a shot at the national championship.

I'm a Cards fan from way back, and I have a huge admiration for Mark McGwire, but I'm also morally certain that he abused steroids. You are definitely right about the reason he's not talking, though. I think it's all about his relationship with his son.

Ritterskoop · #6 Post by **Ritterskoop** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:44 pm

Huh?

If he did nothing wrong he would have answered questions.

I like him too but he had help. It's not clear to me that help was illegal or even banned within baseball, but it was extra help not everyone has.

rayxtwo · #7 Post by **rayxtwo** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:45 pm

littlebeast13 wrote:Huh!?!?!?!?!?

lb13

Here's all the names in the report. I don't see Mcgwire's name anywhere.

Here's a list of most of the names Major League Baseball players listed in the Mitchell Report.

The following players were connected to steroids, either use or possession, in the report:

Lenny Dykstra, David Segui, Larry Bigbie, Brian Roberts, Jack Cust, Tim Laker, Josias Manzanillo, Todd Hundley, Mark Carreon, Hal Morris, Matt Franco, Rondell White, Andy Pettitte, Roger Clemens, Chuck Knoblauch, Jason Grimsley, Gregg Zaun, David Justice, F.P. Santangelo, Glenallen Hill, Mo Vaughn, Denny Neagle, Ron Villone, Ryan Franklin, Chris Donnels, Todd Williams, Phil Hiatt, Todd Pratt, Kevin Young, Mike Lansing, Cody McKay, Kent Mercker.

Adam Piatt, Miguel Tejada, Jason Christiansen, Mike Stanton, Stephen Randolph, Jerry Hairston, Paul Lo Duca, Adam Riggs, Bart Miadich, Fernando Vina, Kevin Brown, Eric Gagne, Mike Bell, Matt Herges, Gary Bennett, Jim Parque, Brendan Donnelly, Chad Allen, Jeff Williams, Exavier "Nook" Logan, Howie Clark, Paxton Crawford, Ken Caminiti, Rafael Palmeiro, Luis Perez, Derrick Turnbow, Ricky Bones, Ricky Stone

The following players were cited under "Alleged Internet Purchases of Performance Enhancing Substances By Players in Major League Baseball."

Rick Ankiel, David Bell, Paul Byrd, Jose Canseco, Jay Gibbons, Troy Glaus, Jason Grimsley, Jose Guillen, Darren Holmes, Gary Matthews Jr., John Rocker, Scott Schoeneweis, Ismael Valdez, Matt Williams, Steve Woodard

The following players were linked through BALCO:

Benito Santiago, Gary Sheffield, Randy Velarde, Jason Giambi, Jeremy Giambi, Bobby Estalella, Barry Bonds, Marvin Benard..

#8 Post by **littlebeast13** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:47 pm

rayxtwo wrote:
littlebeast13 wrote:Huh!?!?!?!?!?

lb13
Here's all the names in the report. I don't see Mcgwire's name anywhere.

Please see my comment above.

If you think those are even close to the only 78 guys who ever used steroids or HGH in baseball, I have a section of Highway 40 I'd like to sell you....

lb13

#9 Post by **littlebeast13** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:52 pm

And for the record, McGwire's name is actually mentioned in the report several times, inlcuding the andro incident in 1998. The players mentioned in the list are only the ones who were "ratted" out by the New York clubhouse attendants, BALCO, and what little testimony he got from the players who'd talk to him.

I'm sure you're prepared to give Sammy Sosa a clean bill of health also. Don't see his name there...

lb13

TheConfessor · #10 Post by **TheConfessor** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:09 pm

I'll join the others in a chorus of "Huhs?"

Did you actually watch Mitchell's news conference? I did. He was quite explicit in stating that there were many other players involved, but these were just the names he had sufficient evidence to include in the report.

rayxtwo · #11 Post by **rayxtwo** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:16 pm

littlebeast13 wrote:And for the record, McGwire's name is actually mentioned in the report several times, inlcuding the andro incident in 1998. The players mentioned in the list are only the ones who were "ratted" out by the New York clubhouse attendants, BALCO, and what little testimony he got from the players who'd talk to him.

I'm sure you're prepared to give Sammy Sosa a clean bill of health also. Don't see his name there...

lb13

The Andro was right on the top shelf of his locker for the whole world to see. He admitted taking it, but it was legal at the time. When they came down and said it was illegal, he quit taking it. Until someone has positive proof he did it (and others, even Sammy Soso corked bat and all) they have to be considered telling the truth. I don't think he (and his lawyers) wanted to answer question in the hearings because of the chance (now a real big chance) that they may sue Canseco over the book.

BTW The photos above depict a 20 year old "kid" and a 35+ year old "man", but I'm sure alll the big strong "he-men" on this board (me included) have the same body the did when they were in college as they do now. I know my "six pack abs" are now "half barrel ab(singular)". A big "kid" will grow up to be a big "man. He had a huge frame in college, and the size followed. Look at the year by year pictures to see the slow changes, rather than the sudden changes some of these players went through.

Ray

mrkelley23 · #12 Post by **mrkelley23** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:42 pm

Let me get this straight. You say it was clear he used andro, it was right on the top shelf of his locker, but his muscular growth was just "natural progression" for him? Are you aware that andro is a steroid, or at least a steroid hormone?

No one is claiming that McGwire should have been punished, that he broke obvious rules for either MLB or federal laws, but he did use steroids and he did take advantage of them. He is a part of the so-called "Steroid Era."

rayxtwo · #13 Post by **rayxtwo** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:26 pm

That's the whole thing in a nut shell.

It was legal at the time he took it. It's like the players that took HGH. It was legal at the time they took it.

MeGwire's Andro was discovered in Aug of 1998. It was not banned by the FDA till April, 2004. Any player could have taken it then. Why they didn't I don't know. If I knew that a "legal" supplement was going to make my body function better at my game, (and make me a lot of money in the process) I'd sure take it.

It's like WWTBAM. The rules said a long time ago that use of outside devices for phone-a-friends are not to be used, but when you heard typing in the background (using google), they didn't stop the phone call did they??? This rule is now gone, but what if they decide to reinstate it. Are they going to say "All you players that used Google cheated, and you have to give your money back"????

If he took illegal stuff, I'll be one of the frist ones tossing the logs on the fire. What he took was legal when he took it. End of story.

Ray

ne1410s · #14 Post by **ne1410s** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:38 pm

ray:
MeGwire's Andro was discovered in Aug of 1998. It was not banned by the FDA till April, 2004.

I have this terrible feeling that you really believe that Andro was the only steroid he took. He kept the andro in his locker because it was not illegal. What he took in the ass is up for discussion. If he could bulk up like he did on merely andro, then no one would have taken anything but andro.

traininvain · #15 Post by **traininvain** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:04 pm

I'm sratching my head about what you're saying here.

If you think that everyone on the list are the only ones who ever took steriods or HGH, I might have a bridge in Brooklyn that you'd be interested in purchasing. This list is only the tip on a very large iceberg, as beast has stated, many of these players were basically 'ratted out', and the others were found out through canceled checks and credit card statements.

All of Baseball is to blame, the owners, the players, the fans, the media and especially the player's association who should be looking out for the health and well being of their constituents.

And on a last note...

Mitchell essentially said that it's not time to be pointing fingers, it's time to clean it up and all get on board with keeping it clean, and I say here, here.

rayxtwo · #16 Post by **rayxtwo** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:39 pm

Ok, this is my last post on this subject.

He was not nailed for taking illegal drugs. PERIOD!!!!!!!

You don't think that they looked in every nook and cranny trying to dig something up on him???? They were, more than likely, unhappy they couldn't find anything to pin on Sosa either.

You wnat to know why the number of home runs goes up every year???? Smaller and smaller ball parks and Major League pitchers that think a 4.0 was an A in school, so they should get a 10 million dollar contract for having an E.R.A with the same number. Look at Jason Marquis. He goes "WTF" about pitching in September in back to back seasons for the Cardinals, then signs a $21 million/ 3-year contract with the Cubs. Why would some idiot give that kind of money to a quitter like him???? When you have more and more teams, the talent pool will be dilluted. Thirty years ago a 35 year old left-hander was getting ready to to take their real estate licence test. Now they are getting $2+ million a year to come in and get out one left-handed batter every third day. Any dad out there that doesn't tie his kids right hand behind him and teach him to throw southpaw, needs their head examined.

The whole system is out of whack, not only because of the steroids, but everything. In 1982, someone offered me $125 for my Standing Room Only ticket for Game 7 of the World Series. I laughed at him and walked inside. In 2006, I got $375 each for my tickets and didn't blink till I got to the bank.

Ranting over. I have to get to my "LEGAL" poker game. (no seriods allowed).

Ray

ToLiveIsToFly · #17 Post by **ToLiveIsToFly** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:13 pm

I have mixed feelings about this whole thing, but Ray, you couldn't be more wrong about the talent pool being depleted. It's probably LESS depleted right now than it ever has been.

Sure, the number of MLB slots has increased steadily over the past 50-odd years. But the talent pool has increased a lot more. Baseball until 1960 was largely restricted to white guys from the U.S. Of course there were some exceptions, but overall if you were either non-white or from some other country, you didn't get into the majors unless you were a superstar (and if you were black and good enough to be a superstar, you still probably couldn't get to the majors if you played for certain teams, like the Red Sox).

Now there are players of all races and from all kinds of parts of the world, and that integration is still not done. This all adds up to much tougher competition.

The reason Jim Hendry looks reasonably good a year later for giving a mediocre major leaguer like Jason Marquis $7M/year for 3 years is that it's HARDER today to post a 4 ERA than it used to be. You have to be a much better pitcher. There've pretty much always been guys who could throw 100, but there's a hell of a lot more of them lately. 20-30 years ago, if you could hit 95 consistently and throw the ball anywhere near the plate, you were pretty much guaranteed to make the bigs. Nowadays, guys like that are a dime a dozen. (And, of course, I'd rather see the players get that money than the Tribune Corp.)

The most persuasive argument I've heard for this is ML pitchers' hitting stats. Except perhaps on the slimmest of margins, there is no "natural selection" for pitchers to be better or worse hitters, and there never really has been. And most ML pitchers were pretty good to excellent hitters before they turned pro, and that's always been true. So there's no reason at all to think that pitchers are worse hitters today then they were 10, 20, 50 or 100 years ago. In fact, there are a lot of reasons to think their absolute hitting ability is BETTER than the pitchers of the past, as nutrition, training, etc get better. So why has the hitting performance of pitchers gone steadily down throughout ML history (with a few blips, like World Wars and the year or two after major expansions) unless the pitchers are getting better and better? And since hitters' performance doesn't keep getting worse, doesn't that mean they must be getting better too?

gotribego26 · #18 Post by **gotribego26** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:22 pm

rayxtwo wrote:He was not nailed for taking illegal drugs. PERIOD!!!!!!!

No one in the report has been nailed for taking illegal drugs - they have been named as people where there is credible evidence that they took drugs.

MItchell was very clear that there are a lot of others who likley used steriods, but there is a lack credible evidence.

There is enough evidence on McGwire that he probably won't get into the HoF (along with a lot of others). There isn't enough to clear his records, send him to jail or give him 39 lashes.

You can beleive what you want - but this report does not prove whether or not he took any substances other than andro. It was not intended to in any way.

#19 Post by **littlebeast13** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:55 pm

rayxtwo wrote:Ok, this is my last post on this subject.

He was not nailed for taking illegal drugs. PERIOD!!!!!!!

Nor was he vindicated... which defeats the whole purpose of your post in the first place!!! (Read the subject line you used)

rayxtwo wrote:You don't think that they looked in every nook and cranny trying to dig something up on him???? They were, more than likely, unhappy they couldn't find anything to pin on Sosa either.

If this report was a witch hunt, the casual baseball fan wouldn't need a baseball encyclopedia to know who half of the names on the "list" were. The Congressional hearings was more of a witch hunt than this was, and you didn't see them dragging Adam Piatt, Chas Allen, and the immortal F.P. Santangelo up to Capitol Hill...

rayxtwo wrote:You wnat to know why the number of home runs goes up every year????

Frankly, no I don't. And I liked it better the way it was in the late 90's and early oughts. And this panel had nothing to do with homeruns.... it had to do with a federal raid on a laboratory, a tell-all book, and the final straw was an expose by two investigative reporters. But I'm glad they stopped Roger Clemens and Andy Pettitte before they threatened the hallowed record of 762 homers....

And thank God Craig Paquette didn't turn up in the list....

lb13

fantine33 · #20 Post by **fantine33** » Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:22 am

I know nothing about baseball in the last 21 years, I know nothing about the 'report', I recognize like 3 names on it. But:

ne1410s wrote: What he took in the ass is up for discussion.

This is the best quote in quite some time, in or out of context. Ha!

When I saw Clemens on the news last night, my bon mot was something involving 'shot in the ass' but this one trumps it.