What's so bad about socialism?

[Ritterskoop]

Sirge says he is very afraid we will head that way if Clinton is elected.

Without condoning his fear or his view that's what will happen, I am wondering what is so bad about socialism? I don't mean totalitarian states with no individuality. I mean semi-socialist nations like Sweden, where there is low infant mortality, and education and healthcare paid for with higher taxes, and lots of other measurable marks of a successful society. Low suicide rates, all sorts of stuff.

I like competition and individuality and strength. But that's easy to say for someone who is more of a winner than not. There are far too many kids who don't have opportunities to find out who they can become, through no fault of their own. I would endorse a system that provided such opportunities, and I am willing to pay for it.

We used green stamps when I was nine. It worked out OK.

[TheConfessor]

Sweden and most other Northern Europe nations have suicide rates higher than in the USA.
http://www.who.int/mental_health/preven ... erates/en/

No comment on the other questions, except that I can't see what green stamps have to do with socialism. They were just a lagniappe for loyal customers, pretty much the same as frequent flyer miles are today.

By the way, I heard you on "Anyone Can Win" tonight. Congratulations on your victory.

[Ritterskoop]

No comment on the other questions, except that I can't see what green stamps have to do with socialism. They were just a lagniappe for loyal customers, pretty much the same as frequent flyer miles are today.

I guess I meant food stamps. Whatever it was, they had to stand in line to get them, and show we were broke. We could use them for milk and bread and cereal, and vegetables.

I may have misremembered on the suicides in Scandinavia, but I think the infant mortality stuff is more correct. I've had a sense for a long time that the British and Swedes and Danes had figured out some stuff, is all.

[silverscreenselect]

Sirge says he is very afraid we will head that way if Clinton is elected.

It's ironic that Hillary Clinton is the most mainstream of all the leading Democratic candidates, which is one reason why many on the left hate her nearly as much as on the right.

The main thing that will change in the next administration is some form of meaningful health care reform. Even most of those on the right see that "patients and their doctors" are not in charge under the current system, which is the b.s. lie with which Hillary's first healthcare proposal was shot down in 1993. Given a choice between having insurers continue to send patients into the grave or bankruptcy court and mandating some form of meaningful, government backed universal coverage, people will choose the latter.

[earendel]

Sirge says he is very afraid we will head that way if Clinton is elected.

Without condoning his fear or his view that's what will happen, I am wondering what is so bad about socialism? I don't mean totalitarian states with no individuality. I mean semi-socialist nations like Sweden, where there is low infant mortality, and education and healthcare paid for with higher taxes, and lots of other measurable marks of a successful society. Low suicide rates, all sorts of stuff.

I like competition and individuality and strength. But that's easy to say for someone who is more of a winner than not. There are far too many kids who don't have opportunities to find out who they can become, through no fault of their own. I would endorse a system that provided such opportunities, and I am willing to pay for it.

We used green stamps when I was nine. It worked out OK.

"Socialism" is the bugaboo of the Right because it conjures up images of Stalinesque "socialist republics" from the 50s and 60s. It's also a bugaboo because it flies in the face of the "rugged self-reliance" that is allegedly the hallmark of the American psyche - every man for himself, pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, etc. Some believe that socialism takes away the incentive to prosper, innovate, etc., because no matter how hard you try, you end up having to give much of it away in the form of taxes to support those who aren't trying hard.

Interestingly a commentator on NPR this morning suggested that "socialized medicine" is used by the Right in order to avoid any serious discussion about the need for health care reform. It obfuscates and riles rather than contributing anything meaningful to the discussion.

[mrkelley23]

Same thing that's bad with peace, love, and understanding....

[Sir_Galahad]

"Socialism" is the bugaboo of the Right because it conjures up images of Stalinesque "socialist republics" from the 50s and 60s. It's also a bugaboo because it flies in the face of the "rugged self-reliance" that is allegedly the hallmark of the American psyche - every man for himself, pull yourself up by your own bootstraps, etc. Some believe that socialism takes away the incentive to prosper, innovate, etc., because no matter how hard you try, you end up having to give much of it away in the form of taxes to support those who aren't trying hard.

I couldn't have said it better. Where is my incentive to better myself and work harder to that end when I know that most of that extra effort will be taken away and given to someone who doesn't have that incentive? And, I'm not talking about those who are physically unable. I am talking about those that continually sponge off the government simply because it's available and they can. I have no problem paying my fair share in taxes to help the government run efficiently (whatever <b>that</b> means) but I'll be damned if I'm going to work an extra 20 hours a week (or aspire to rise within the company) only to have the government take it away and give it to some slob that sees the government as their private sugar daddy. Not to mention the open border policy which will allow in more people that are not here legally sponging off the government. Where does it all end? Where do you draw the line? Or do you?

Interestingly a commentator on NPR this morning suggested that "socialized medicine" is used by the Right in order to avoid any serious discussion about the need for health care reform. It obfuscates and riles rather than contributing anything meaningful to the discussion.

I have already posted my views on Health Care Reform and what my plan would be. I am not one of those loony leftists (or righties) that simply throw darts without offering any meaningful solutions.

[BackInTex]

Sirge says he is very afraid we will head that way if Clinton is elected.

Without condoning his fear or his view that's what will happen, I am wondering what is so bad about socialism?

If you value mediocrity, then nothing. No losers, but no winners (other than the corrupt).

No motivation to excel, improve, create, other than those few with morals and drive well beyond the norm.

Socialism works well in the animal kingdom, but humans as a group are wretches, evil, and care only for themselves. Those who are the exceptions get squashed in socialism as they try to do what is right but then must carry the weight of the majority who don't.

[Rexer25]

No motivation to excel, improve, create, other than those few with morals and drive well beyond the norm.

So who brought up No Child Left Behind?

[Bob Juch]

Socialism works well in the animal kingdom, but humans as a group are wretches, evil, and care only for themselves. Those who are the exceptions get squashed in socialism as they try to do what is right but then must carry the weight of the majority who don't.

No, that's just Republicans.

[TheCalvinator24]

The Tragedy of the Commons


The Tragedy of the Commons II

[Sir_Galahad]

Adding to Cal's post...

http://freeagencyrules.blogspot.com/200 ... alism.html

If that's what you want, go ahead and vote for Hillary. I will find a candidate more suited for this great country of ours.

[bazodee]

I'd be curious as to what members here would consider to be the opposite of socialism. Socialism is a term that is bandied about but has so many connotations for different people. I would guess that people's reaction to the word might be predictable if we knew what they considered to be at the other end of the spectrum.

For me, the opposite of "socialism" is "individualism".

Any others care to weigh in?

[earendel]

I'd be curious as to what members here would consider to be the opposite of socialism. Socialism is a term that is bandied about but has so many connotations for different people. I would guess that people's reaction to the word might be predictable if we knew what they considered to be at the other end of the spectrum.

For me, the opposite of "socialism" is "individualism".

Any others care to weigh in?

As an economic system, certainly capitalism would have to be the antithesis of socialism. As a political system, I'd say libertarianism.

[tanstaafl2]

It's ironic that Hillary Clinton is the most mainstream of all the leading Democratic candidates, which is one reason why many on the left hate her nearly as much as on the right.

A word seems to be missing. Just insert "appearing" after mainstream. Nothing mainstream about Senator Clinton.

[Sir_Galahad]

I'd be curious as to what members here would consider to be the opposite of socialism. Socialism is a term that is bandied about but has so many connotations for different people. I would guess that people's reaction to the word might be predictable if we knew what they considered to be at the other end of the spectrum.

For me, the opposite of "socialism" is "individualism".

Any others care to weigh in?

I'm not sure if there is specific term to define the antonym of socialism. I think capitalism probably comes as close as any.

[kusch]

Tax rates--Sweden vs US


Sweden has a very high income tax rate and a moderate corporate tax rate. The top income tax rate is 60 percent, making Sweden's income tax burden one of the heaviest in the world, and the top corporate tax rate is 28 percent. Other taxes include a value-added tax (VAT) and a capital gains tax. There has been debate over the wealth tax. In the most recent year, overall tax revenue as a percentage of GDP was 50.7 percent.

The United States has burdensome tax rates. Both the top income tax rate and the top corporate tax rate are 35 percent. Other taxes include a property tax, an estate tax, and excise taxes. In the most recent year, overall tax revenue as a percentage of GDP was 25.4 percent.

Source--Heritage Foundation and The Wall Street Journal.

I really am one that cannot define "socialism" fully, but I don't want it.

I would not want to live in a country that has the burden of one of the heaviest tax burdens of the world.

[andrewjackson]

As a former civics and economics teacher I can define Socialism and its opposite.

In economics terms:

Socialism - state ownership of the means and distribution of production

Capitalism - private ownership of the means and distribution of production


That's all they mean. "Ownership" implies control in this case. Political issues get interrelated but from an economic perspective that's it.

Every state in the modern world is a mixed economy or some combination of these. Even Cuba and North Korea allow some private ownership of some capital. The United States has some government ownership of the means of production and definitely controls some aspects of distribution.

There are some very socialized countries with high standards of living and but also some with very low standards of living and everything in between. More capitalistic countries run the same gamut especially when you consider that some nominally "socialist" countries actually have most of the means of production controlled by a small number of individuals even though they are state-owned.

[Sir_Galahad]

No matter where you go, there you are.

Without looking it up, can you name the two movies in which this line appears?

[macrae1234]

Canada is a quasi-socialist country with higher taxes and a social safety net including public health care and Unemployment Insurance. As a former resident I can speak about the benefits of both countries health programs as long as you have coverage in the US. As a former Canadian Federal Public Servant in the Department that is responsible for the Unemployment safety net I can speak about those programs. In a nutshell if you are working with health care the US is a better place to be. If you are sick long term or unemployed Canada is better.
If you want an insight on what a Socialist style government would do in an economic climate similar to the current US please go to this link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Rae

He was the only NDP elected premier of Ontario

[andrewjackson]

No matter where you go, there you are.

Without looking it up, can you name the two movies in which this line appears?

The Adventures of Buckaroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

and

Total Recall

There may be others.

[earendel]

No matter where you go, there you are.

Without looking it up, can you name the two movies in which this line appears?

It's from Buckaroo Banzai, of course, but it's also found on the commissioning plaque for the USS Excelsior in Star Trek III:The Search for Spock. This is a little obscure, though - it takes a screen capture to actually see it, so you probably aren't counting this one.

[Sir_Galahad]

No matter where you go, there you are.

Without looking it up, can you name the two movies in which this line appears?

The Adventures of Buckaroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

and

Total Recall

There may be others.

I do not remember it being in Total Recall. That wasn't the movie I had in mind.

[ToLiveIsToFly]

Sweden and most other Northern Europe nations have suicide rates higher than in the USA.

I realize this is a correction to a specific statement, and that you don't seem to be saying this is because of socialism. I'd think it's mostly because of long, dark, dismal winters.

[andrewjackson]

Without looking it up, can you name the two movies in which this line appears?

The Adventures of Buckaroo Bonzai Across the 8th Dimension

and

Total Recall

There may be others.

I do not remember it being in Total Recall. That wasn't the movie I had in mind.

Hmmm. Nope. That's all I've got.