Whose God

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VAdame
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Re: Whose God

#51 Post by VAdame » Sun Jan 11, 2009 5:50 pm

TheConfessor wrote:
PlacentiaSoccerMom wrote:
peacock2121 wrote: You just pause when other are saying that part?
I do.
Where does everyone even have to deal with this question? I can't recall ever being anywhere where the Pledge of Allegiance was recited in the past 30 years or so.
Scout meetings, camp, etc....

A pair of our most active camp parents (when my girls were in Scouting) were British citizens. They simply stood quietly when the Pledge was recited or the Star-Spangled Banner was sung.

BTW, Anna was pregnant the last time I saw her, Leah's last year in Girl Scouting -- and I heard she had a girl. That kid should be just about old enough for Daisies now :D

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John C. Calhoun
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Re: Whose God

#52 Post by John C. Calhoun » Sun Jan 11, 2009 6:11 pm

BackInTex wrote:
peacock2121 wrote: How can Reagen have said that and have it be one of his famous quotes? How can that be in this country of so many different points of view or interpretations?
First, lets look at the quote you seem to be confused about:

"If we ever forget that we are One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under." - Ronald Reagan

That was what RWR believe. That was what was great about him. He said what he believed. Not what he believe the people wanted to hear, or more specifically, the people in the room he is speaking to at the time. He said the same thing no matter where or what. Its easy to do if you always say what you believe. I don't think we've had a president since that has done that. And maybe only a handful of senators.

Now, with that belief in God, also comes the belief that if a nation's people don't follow that God, then He will not support it.

BTW, I no longer consider our country one nation. We are not aligned. We are fragmented. Gone are the days when the majority of Americans want to be American (Red White and Blue). Most seem to value and take pride in their individualism. Most are not willing to sacrifice for others for the benefit of the country. Most want others to rule over them. Most don't understand the word 'nation'.
BiT, my boy, its been a long time since the Era of Good Feelings
A power has risen up in the government greater than the people themselves, consisting of many and various and powerful interests, combined into one mass, and held together by the cohesive power of the vast surplus in the banks.

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Re: Whose God

#53 Post by peacock2121 » Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:39 am

TheConfessor wrote:
PlacentiaSoccerMom wrote:
peacock2121 wrote: You just pause when other are saying that part?
I do.
Where does everyone even have to deal with this question? I can't recall ever being anywhere where the Pledge of Allegiance was recited in the past 30 years or so.
If you have children in school, you deal with it.

If you belong to or attend any civic groups meetings, you deal with it.

If you attend any official meeting in our town hall, you deal with it.

I am sure there are other happenings that I don't deal with that would cause one to deal with it.

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Re: Whose God

#54 Post by peacock2121 » Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:40 am

littlebeast13 wrote:
TheConfessor wrote:
PlacentiaSoccerMom wrote: I do.
Where does everyone even have to deal with this question? I can't recall ever being anywhere where the Pledge of Allegiance was recited in the past 30 years or so.
Good point....

I remember having to recite it during jury duty orientation 5 years ago, but other than that.... I'm thinking 8th grade (20 years ago for me). I don't remember us doing the Pledge in high school, but my memory's starting to go.....

lb13
I don't recall saying it for jury duty.

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Re: Whose God

#55 Post by peacock2121 » Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:40 am

VAdame wrote:
TheConfessor wrote:
PlacentiaSoccerMom wrote: I do.
Where does everyone even have to deal with this question? I can't recall ever being anywhere where the Pledge of Allegiance was recited in the past 30 years or so.
Scout meetings, camp, etc....

A pair of our most active camp parents (when my girls were in Scouting) were British citizens. They simply stood quietly when the Pledge was recited or the Star-Spangled Banner was sung.

BTW, Anna was pregnant the last time I saw her, Leah's last year in Girl Scouting -- and I heard she had a girl. That kid should be just about old enough for Daisies now :D
Scouts! That is one I don't deal with. I know there are more.

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Re: Whose God

#56 Post by littlebeast13 » Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:58 am

peacock2121 wrote:
littlebeast13 wrote:
TheConfessor wrote: Where does everyone even have to deal with this question? I can't recall ever being anywhere where the Pledge of Allegiance was recited in the past 30 years or so.
Good point....

I remember having to recite it during jury duty orientation 5 years ago, but other than that.... I'm thinking 8th grade (20 years ago for me). I don't remember us doing the Pledge in high school, but my memory's starting to go.....

lb13
I don't recall saying it for jury duty.

Things may work differently up there.

Do your judges wear long powdered wigs?

lb13

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Re: Whose God

#57 Post by peacock2121 » Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:02 am

littlebeast13 wrote:
peacock2121 wrote:
littlebeast13 wrote: Good point....

I remember having to recite it during jury duty orientation 5 years ago, but other than that.... I'm thinking 8th grade (20 years ago for me). I don't remember us doing the Pledge in high school, but my memory's starting to go.....

lb13
I don't recall saying it for jury duty.

Things may work differently up there.

Do your judges wear long powdered wigs?

lb13
We can't afford wigs up here. They just powder their own hair.

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Re: Whose God

#58 Post by megaaddict » Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:56 pm

My one cent. (I had two, but had them in stocks).

To me, "under God" means just that: Under God, beneath God, below God, less than God, perhaps to the point of being insignificant in relation to God. In this sense, pledging allegiance to "one nation under God" can be interpreted as an "out" -- a way for me to pledge allegiance to the nation, without pledging same to the national consensus of who or what God is.

Now I'm talking about "my God" here, but truth be told, I don't have a God. Nobody has a God -- a dog maybe, but not a God. Actually, I'm talking about my conception of God, which like any human conception of God is at best limited, and in practice, only as accurate as the person is omniscient -- in other words, infinitesimally accurate or infinitely way off.

I am sure there is a Supreme Being, but I don't really mind atheists. When an atheist says he or she doesn't believe in God, what they basically mean is that all human concepts of God are wrong, and that statement is generally more true than all the superstitious mumbo-jumbo perpetuated in the name of the Almighty...

and perhaps even this perspective as well.

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Re: Whose God

#59 Post by mrkelley23 » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:07 pm

TheConfessor wrote:
PlacentiaSoccerMom wrote:
peacock2121 wrote: You just pause when other are saying that part?
I do.
Where does everyone even have to deal with this question? I can't recall ever being anywhere where the Pledge of Allegiance was recited in the past 30 years or so.
About 5 years ago (I'm too lazy to go look it up) our all-knowing, all-wise state legislature wrote it into law. We lead the kids in every school in the state in the PoA, followed by "a brief moment of silence." I pause during the words "under God," but I don't make a federal case out of it. I stand silently, still in salute to the flag, during the 10 seconds or so that our school has decided is about the proper length of a "moment" since our wonderful legislature declined to define that term for us. Sometimes I think gray thoughts about our state legislature during that ten seconds. But I will never understand the political types, as well as the types who vote for them, who somehow think that forced allegiance is allegiance, and that forced patriotism is patriotism.

And I can't understand why some Christians, particularly in state legislatures, can't stand up for the faith and state and pass bills saying what they mean, which is they want school prayers led by teachers, but they have been consistently overruled by the heathen Courts, so they substitute a Namby-pamby "moment of silence." Their God's too small for me.

And for the record, I've never had a kid question me as to why I don't say the words "under God," although I know the sharper ones notice. And I have overheard at least one student say "He's an atheist, he doesn't say under God during the Pledge." I didn't correct him, but he's wrong. I just lament the circumstances that force people to draw incorrect conclusions like that, not to mention the extra three or so minutes that are wasted in the day because of it.

Aren't you glad I"m not bitter? :)
For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled. -- Richard Feynman

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Re: Whose God

#60 Post by franktangredi » Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:24 pm

Ever read the column that William Safire (a conservative and Christian with impeccable credentials) wrote back in '04 when that case hit the Supreme Court. Keep reading to the end.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.h ... A9629C8B63
As a very little boy, I thought the opening words to the recitation required at school every morning were ''I led the pigeons to the flag.'' Seemed odd, but I figured the teacher knew best.
In my 20's, I noticed how the rhythm of the assertion of national unity at the conclusion of the Pledge of Allegiance -- ''one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all'' -- was broken into by the insertion by Congress in 1954 of the phrase ''under God'' between ''one nation'' and ''indivisible.'' As a geezer today, I sometimes trip over the inserted piety in recitation.
This morning, the U.S. Supreme Court will hear the argument of an atheist who persuaded the Left Coast Court of Appeals to strike that religious phrase from the pledge recited in public school. Michael Newdow, appearing pro se, without counsel, will urge the court to affirm the decision to which a vast majority of us object.
In my view, the complaining atheist has no ''standing'' to bring the case in the first place on behalf of the schoolchild. He never married his daughter's mother. She is a self-described ''committed Christian'' who has been rearing their child and wants her daughter to recite the pledge.
Solicitor General Ted Olson, the most effective constitutional lawyer in the nation, can be expected to start by challenging the father's standing to sue. However, Justice Antonin Scalia, the court's sternest stickler on standing, has disqualified himself because he expressed his opinion prejudging the ''under God'' phrase in a speech last year. (For proper standards on recusal, read Scalia's persuasive memo on his Cheney nonrecusal at www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/03pdf/03-475.pdf.)
On wider grounds of the traditional recognition of the deity in American political life, Olson could point to the words ''In God We Trust,'' put on our coins in Lincoln's time. Or the fervent reference to ''the Creator'' as the source of our rights that Jefferson put in our Declaration of Independence. Or the words opening this morning's session: ''God save the United States and this honorable court.''
Even George Washington, at the end of taking the oath of office as prescribed in the Constitution, was moved to ad-lib the phrase ''So help me God,'' which has been added by most presidents being inaugurated since. This sort of general public reverence is part of our political culture.
So what's the big deal about ''under God'' in the Pledge of Allegiance? President Bush has written that the current pledge is a way of ''humbly seeking the wisdom and guidance of divine providence.''
John Kerry said on Boston television in 2002 that the Ninth Circuit ruling holding ''under God'' in the pledge unconstitutional was ''half-assed justice . . . the most absurd thing. . . . That's not the establishment of religion.'' Michael Dukakis vetoed a Massachusetts bill requiring teachers to lead classes in the pledge and paid dearly for it in his presidential campaign. That bill is now law, as are similar statutes in 42 other states. These laws do not conflict with the High Court's 1943 decision that no student can be penalized for declining to take the pledge.
Agreeing with both Bush and Kerry in support of ''under God'' are majorities in both houses of Congress and attorneys general of all 50 states. From the liberal National Education Association and American Jewish Congress to the conservative American Legion and the Knights of Columbus (which sponsored this addition 50 years ago), under-God-ers have weighed in with briefs. Opposing are the Atheist Law Center, the A.C.L.U., A.D.L. and assorted iconoclasts.
The only thing this time-wasting pest Newdow has going for him is that he's right. Those of us who believe in God don't need to inject our faith into a patriotic affirmation and coerce all schoolchildren into going along. The key word in the pledge is the last one.
The insertion was a mistake then; the trouble is that knocking the words out long afterward, offending the religious majority, would be a slippery-slope mistake now. The justices shouldn't use the issue of standing to punt, thereby letting this divisive ruckus fester. The solution is for the court to require teachers to inform students they have the added right to remain silent for a couple of seconds while others choose to say ''under God.''

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Re: Whose God

#61 Post by kayrharris » Mon Jan 12, 2009 7:34 pm

I had a dear friend (may she rest in peace) who stood silently during the "he descended into hell" part of
the Apostle's Creed. She absolutely did not believe that and absolutely refused to let those words cross
her lips. I respected her for taking that stand.

Not being a religious scholar, I'm pretty sure there are versions that leave that phrase out.
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Re: Whose God

#62 Post by SportsFan68 » Tue Jan 13, 2009 9:47 am

TheConfessor wrote:
PlacentiaSoccerMom wrote:
peacock2121 wrote: You just pause when other are saying that part?
I do.
Where does everyone even have to deal with this question? I can't recall ever being anywhere where the Pledge of Allegiance was recited in the past 30 years or so.
We say it every week at my Toastmasters club. We also say it at official functions of the local Democratic party, such as the upcoming reorganization meeting and the County Assembly.

I suppose I could look it up but haven't yet -- for a while, none of the PFLAG people said the pledge at all, just stood quietly while the rest of us recited. This was about three years ago.
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Re: Whose God

#63 Post by TheCalvinator24 » Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:57 am

kayrharris wrote:I had a dear friend (may she rest in peace) who stood silently during the "he descended into hell" part of
the Apostle's Creed. She absolutely did not believe that and absolutely refused to let those words cross
her lips. I respected her for taking that stand.

Not being a religious scholar, I'm pretty sure there are versions that leave that phrase out.
If it doesn't include that clause, then it is not the Apostle's Creed.

The Nicene Creed does not include that clause.
It is our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities. —Albus Dumbledore

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Re: Whose God

#64 Post by Tocqueville3 » Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:04 am

TheCalvinator24 wrote:
kayrharris wrote:I had a dear friend (may she rest in peace) who stood silently during the "he descended into hell" part of
the Apostle's Creed. She absolutely did not believe that and absolutely refused to let those words cross
her lips. I respected her for taking that stand.

Not being a religious scholar, I'm pretty sure there are versions that leave that phrase out.
If it doesn't include that clause, then it is not the Apostle's Creed.

The Nicene Creed does not include that clause.
Thank you , Cal. I had typed up something long and convaluted to answer Kay but decided it was too snarky.

Your answer correct and better.
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Re: Whose God

#65 Post by frogman042 » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:23 pm

Tocqueville3 wrote:
TheCalvinator24 wrote:
kayrharris wrote:I had a dear friend (may she rest in peace) who stood silently during the "he descended into hell" part of
the Apostle's Creed. She absolutely did not believe that and absolutely refused to let those words cross
her lips. I respected her for taking that stand.

Not being a religious scholar, I'm pretty sure there are versions that leave that phrase out.
If it doesn't include that clause, then it is not the Apostle's Creed.

The Nicene Creed does not include that clause.
Thank you , Cal. I had typed up something long and convaluted to answer Kay but decided it was too snarky.

Your answer correct and better.
Wasn't it the Apostle's Creed that defeated Rocky Balboa in the first movie of that series?

---Jay

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Re: Whose God

#66 Post by littlebeast13 » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:30 pm

frogman042 wrote:
Tocqueville3 wrote:
TheCalvinator24 wrote: If it doesn't include that clause, then it is not the Apostle's Creed.

The Nicene Creed does not include that clause.
Thank you , Cal. I had typed up something long and convaluted to answer Kay but decided it was too snarky.

Your answer correct and better.
Wasn't it the Apostle's Creed that defeated Rocky Balboa in the first movie of that series?

---Jay

That should've been tomorrow's BPOTD.....

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Re: Whose God

#67 Post by wbtravis007 » Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:56 pm

TheCalvinator24 wrote:
kayrharris wrote:I had a dear friend (may she rest in peace) who stood silently during the "he descended into hell" part of
the Apostle's Creed. She absolutely did not believe that and absolutely refused to let those words cross
her lips. I respected her for taking that stand.

Not being a religious scholar, I'm pretty sure there are versions that leave that phrase out.
If it doesn't include that clause, then it is not the Apostle's Creed.

The Nicene Creed does not include that clause.
In the Methodist Church, what we called "The Apostles Creed" did not include the stuff about going to Hell. I'm now a member of a Lutheran Church, but I still recite what I was taught as a Methodist.

Course, it's not like there aren't plenty of things that I go ahead and say that I don't really think are true anyway, but still.

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Re: Whose God

#68 Post by TheCalvinator24 » Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:02 pm

wbtravis007 wrote:
TheCalvinator24 wrote:
kayrharris wrote:I had a dear friend (may she rest in peace) who stood silently during the "he descended into hell" part of
the Apostle's Creed. She absolutely did not believe that and absolutely refused to let those words cross
her lips. I respected her for taking that stand.

Not being a religious scholar, I'm pretty sure there are versions that leave that phrase out.
If it doesn't include that clause, then it is not the Apostle's Creed.

The Nicene Creed does not include that clause.
In the Methodist Church, we what we called "The Apostles Creed" did not include the stuff about going to Hell. I'm now a member of a Lutheran Church, but I still recite what I was taught as a Methodist.

Course, it's not like there aren't plenty of things that I go ahead and say that I don't really think are true anyway, but still.
They can call it what they want, but it's no longer the Apostle's Creed if you cut that part (or any part) out.
It is our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities. —Albus Dumbledore

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Re: Whose God

#69 Post by wbtravis007 » Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:06 pm

TheCalvinator24 wrote:
wbtravis007 wrote:
TheCalvinator24 wrote: If it doesn't include that clause, then it is not the Apostle's Creed.

The Nicene Creed does not include that clause.
In the Methodist Church, we what we called "The Apostles Creed" did not include the stuff about going to Hell. I'm now a member of a Lutheran Church, but I still recite what I was taught as a Methodist.

Course, it's not like there aren't plenty of things that I go ahead and say that I don't really think are true anyway, but still.
They can call it what they want, but it's no longer the Apostle's Creed if you cut that part (or any part) out.
TheCalvinator24 wrote:
wbtravis007 wrote:
TheCalvinator24 wrote: If it doesn't include that clause, then it is not the Apostle's Creed.

The Nicene Creed does not include that clause.
In the Methodist Church, we what we called "The Apostles Creed" did not include the stuff about going to Hell. I'm now a member of a Lutheran Church, but I still recite what I was taught as a Methodist.

Course, it's not like there aren't plenty of things that I go ahead and say that I don't really think are true anyway, but still.
They can call it what they want, but it's no longer the Apostle's Creed if you cut that part (or any part) out.
Well, you can just die and go to Hell for all I care.

One of these days, I mean.

I wouldn't want that to happen before it's God's will or anything.

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Re: Whose God

#70 Post by silvercamaro » Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:07 pm

TheCalvinator24 wrote:
wbtravis007 wrote:
TheCalvinator24 wrote: If it doesn't include that clause, then it is not the Apostle's Creed.

The Nicene Creed does not include that clause.
In the Methodist Church, we what we called "The Apostles Creed" did not include the stuff about going to Hell. I'm now a member of a Lutheran Church, but I still recite what I was taught as a Methodist.

Course, it's not like there aren't plenty of things that I go ahead and say that I don't really think are true anyway, but still.
They can call it what they want, but it's no longer the Apostle's Creed if you cut that part (or any part) out.
http://www.reformed.org/documents/index ... creed.html

"Now it appears from the ancient writers that this phrase which we read in the Creed was once not so much used in the churches."

I'll let you guys argue about whether the ancients knew anything.
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Re: Whose God

#71 Post by VAdame » Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:10 pm

Some translations say "He descended to the dead." Or, into "Hades." Not necessarily "eternal punishment Hell" -- just the realm of the dead. Remember -- like all the ancient writings, it's a translation!

Here the creed hammers home the point that he was really dead. His death was not an illusion. He was nailed to a post. He died. He had a real body, a corpse, that was placed in a tomb. He was not merely unconscious — His spirit left His body and went to the realm of the dead. It is a common belief among Christians that on this occasion he took the souls of those who had died trusting in the promises made under the Old Covenant — Abraham, Moses, David, Elijah, Isaiah, and many others — and brought them out of the realm of the dead and into heavenly glory. But the creed is not concerned with this point. The reference to the descent into Hades (or Hell, or Sheol) is here to make it clear that the death of Jesus was not just a swoon or a coma, but death in every sense of the word.

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Re: Whose God

#72 Post by TheCalvinator24 » Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:17 pm

silvercamaro wrote:
TheCalvinator24 wrote:
wbtravis007 wrote: In the Methodist Church, we what we called "The Apostles Creed" did not include the stuff about going to Hell. I'm now a member of a Lutheran Church, but I still recite what I was taught as a Methodist.

Course, it's not like there aren't plenty of things that I go ahead and say that I don't really think are true anyway, but still.
They can call it what they want, but it's no longer the Apostle's Creed if you cut that part (or any part) out.
http://www.reformed.org/documents/index ... creed.html

"Now it appears from the ancient writers that this phrase which we read in the Creed was once not so much used in the churches."

I'll let you guys argue about whether the ancients knew anything.
Thanks for the link. It was quite enlightening to read Calvin's exposition of the clause.

My take on the question of the Creed is that once the Creed was adopted by the church catholic, any change to it changes its essence, making it not the same thing as before.
It is our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities. —Albus Dumbledore

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Re: Whose God

#73 Post by Thousandaire » Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:18 pm

I thought you had to go to Purgatory before Hell. Is that not right?

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Re: Whose God

#74 Post by VAdame » Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:20 pm

Thousandaire wrote:I thought you had to go to Purgatory before Hell. Is that not right?
No! You go to Purgatory to expiate your sins before you go to Heaven!

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Re: Whose God

#75 Post by ToLiveIsToFly » Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:20 pm

Tocqueville3 wrote:I'll prolly be equated with Holtdad after this explanation but I don't really give a care.

Whether or not we like it or agree with it we are all one nation under God. Whether we worship Him or completely ingore Him we are all under Him. Whether we love Him or we hate Him we are all still under Him. He is the ruler of all the world. All the universe for that matter.

That's the thing about the Lord. He rules. He is omnipotent. He is sovereign. He is perfect. He is in complete control all the time.
Tocqueville3 wrote:That is the truth for everyone whether or not they believe it is.

As for who is Him, I mean the God of the Bible. There is only one Lord. In the Bible, He says over and over again that He is the Lord. Anyone can try to put God in a little box and try to make him what they want. They can try to deny Him and ignore Him and say He isn't their God but He is.

And, no, he is not the God that I say He is. He is the God that He says He is.
Tocqueville3 wrote:It is an admirable quality to say that you don't believe what someone else believes without trashing them or their belief.
I don't believe what you believe, but I don't think I've ever trashed either you or it. (I think the closest I came was saying that a candidate for President who advocated, I can't recall the exact words, but something about having your God's law be the law of my land, was a nutball.)

I realize how confident you are in your beliefs. I am as confident in mine. I wouldn't presume to state my beliefs as undeniable fact in front of an audience that doesn't necessarily share them, because I would consider it trashing theirs.

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