Canadian TV is still analog for the near future, right?

[ghostjmf]

I was just thinking of this. Maybe I'll just take my analog equipment & head for the border....

Progressive Scan technology, whatever it is, will probably start being built into HD disc players eventually so that all those old non-HD discs you recorded won't look like crap when played in HD. Unless it doesn't work on already-recorded discs. Its supposed to work on incoming signals. But both the discs & signals are digitized already, so that's the big part.

I just wonder if stations that continue to broadcast in analog after the evil Feb date (on this continent those will be Canadian stations, & I'd bet Mexican stations) will be met with receivers that can receive them down (or up) here. I know the cable companies are committed to translate HD signals to analog ones "for a while" (no-one seems to know the "while" date), but the other way 'round??

I'll have to go ask a techie group; discussing this over here will just hurt PoorFannie's head, & we don't wanna do that, do we?

[etaoin22]

I thought we would be probably be doing this in tandem with US, but no.

http://www.ic.gc.ca/epic/site/oca-bc.ns ... 2336e.html

Shows what you get for having this dossier led by the Ministry of Industry rather than the Ministry of Communications. (I have a personal bias here: Broadcast Regulation was my father's area in the Department of Transport (why Transport? Radio band public importance originally felt to be mostly as an aviation aid), back in the 60's and early 70's ).

[Bob Juch]

I suppose that means the Canadian stations will be DXable until then after the U.S. stations stop broadcasting.

[ghostjmf]

Enquiring minds (both Canadian & USA-an) ought to note that the converter box of choice, because it give a decent picture & also has one of those all-important event timers to co-ordinate input with VCRs, is now DTVPal+. Which makes me pretty sore, as I bought DTVPal without the "+" back in August; reports eventually filtered in that their timers cough periodically.

Zinwell also produces a converter box with an event-timer, but no-one can apparently find one to buy one, almost, so there isn't as much discussion of them on the web.

I would try to trade my as-yet-unopened DTVPals in for DTVPal+s, but when I bought them at Sears the Sears person said "no returns on these 'cause you bought them with the govt coupons", despite that Sears charged an extra $20.00 each above the $40.00 coupon rate. We will see about that return policy when I enquire. If its not too late, which it probably is; I only found out about the "upgraded" converter last week.

I'd bet that DTV, the satellite program co, is pretty sore that they bought all these converter boxes from Echostar & pasted their name on them, & now people are complaining that one of their tasty additional features, the event timer (almost) no-one else has, is giving their box a bad rep when it fails. From early adopter techies. That's the problem in techie-world advertising; you've not only got to aim high, you've got to hit the target consistently.

Of course the machine of choice, for those of us without cable or HDTV, would be a hard-disc/DVD recorder that converts to analog as well. So that you don't have to program 2 seperate devices for every one program you want to record. Well, for me, 2 hard-disc/DVD recorders, or one that records 2 stations at once. I'm going to be programming 4 devices lots of times. Yech.

(Hard disc because it appears they don't have flash cards out yet that will capture 8 hours of HD TV. Yet. Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, I'm relatively sure.)


All the manufacturers are lying low until the smoke clears re Blu-Ray (I could care less, as I record televised material, I don't buy & play DVDs) & re how many people actually want to own such a machine instead of rent several TiVO-brand ones (which don't covert to analog because the cable co takes care of that beforehand) through their cable co. Those of us who don't have a cable co, & don't plan on getting cable of course want to own one (or two). But how many of us are really out there?

Somehow, I think we will be poking our heads outside of our bunkers after the Feb US cutoff date, & making a bit of noise.

Yes, I know I can watch a lot of programs on internet web sites. Which does take away the need for recording devices to a certain extent (not if I want a permanent copy, but some claim to be downloadable too; I haven't tried this), but internet sites often poo out on you at various points in the program, Fox's refuses to play with more than a teeny-tiny visible square for more than about a minute, you slide that slider backward to catch something at your own risk of missing your target point, etc etc.

And I've been told by Canadians in other discussion groups that they are blocked from watching those easy-to-retrieve programs on US network sites, & that the Canadian versions of US network sites don't have programs up for replay.

[ghostjmf]

I just thought of a might-work kludge:

(Relax Fanny, littlebeast, et al; "hurts your head" -> "don't have to read")

I get a hard-disc/DVD recorder with built-in event-timer that records in digital, & takes antenna input (most cable input places also take antenna input). I take the signal from it & run it through a converter box. I run the converter box to my TV. I use this hard-disc/DVD machine as a tuner to watch TV, much as I often use my VCRs now. I use it to record when I wanna.

The only problem here is that the hard-disc/DVD recorder has to have an output place that will link to the converter box's input place. It should come with one, but if it doesn't, sounds like no more than a simple Radio Shak kind of problem. But I've found Radio Shak to be really lacking in some basic connector-stuff lately.

I know there are real electronic vendors out there. I order from them daily for work. I just hate not being able to walk to the square & pick the stuff up.

[Bob Juch]

I just thought of a might-work kludge:

(Relax Fanny, littlebeast, et al; "hurts your head" -> "don't have to read")

I get a hard-disc/DVD recorder with built-in event-timer that records in digital, & takes antenna input (most cable input places also take antenna input). I take the signal from it & run it through a converter box. I run the converter box to my TV. I use this hard-disc/DVD machine as a tuner to watch TV, much as I often use my VCRs now. I use it to record when I wanna.

The only problem here is that the hard-disc/DVD recorder has to have an output place that will link to the converter box's input place. It should come with one, but if it doesn't, sounds like no more than a simple Radio Shak kind of problem. But I've found Radio Shak to be really lacking in some basic connector-stuff lately.

I know there are real electronic vendors out there. I order from them daily for work. I just hate not being able to walk to the square & pick the stuff up.

If you do that you won't be able to use the tuner in your DVR and it won't record anything.

[ghostjmf]

BobJuch says:

If you do that you won't be able to use the tuner in your DVR and it won't record anything.

Remember this would be a standalone hard-disc/DVD recorder (like the Panasonic my sister has, which is exactly that; it was very pricey at the time she bought hers), not the form of TiVO a cable company sells you (which may very well work differently, even though TiVO does sell standalones directly to the public; those ones don't look very latest-grade; TiVO's main market is "through cable-companies").

As far as I know the tuner in my sister's Panasonic hard-disc/DVD recorder is exactly like the tuners in VCRs, except that the Panasonic is "digital capable" & of course my soon-to-be-discarded, if this setup works out, VCRs are not. So you get a device with an event-timer & tuner pulling in what you want when you want it. And recording it only if you set it up to do that. The only problem with this would be "but I can't see that signal on my set, 'cause the signal is digital, & the set is analog".

That's what the converter box would be for; its tuner, since the ones I bought do have them, would be set to "vacant channel 3", it would get input from the hard-disc/DVR, convert it to analog, & send it on to my TV set.

What makes this setup simpler than the previous kludge, with the converter box getting the signal 1st, is not having to set up the converter's tuner/timer & recording-device's timer in tandem.

In the new situation, as long as the converter is on, it will convert the signal it gets & pass it along.

[Bob Juch]

BobJuch says:

If you do that you won't be able to use the tuner in your DVR and it won't record anything.

Remember this would be a standalone hard-disc/DVD recorder (like the Panasonic my sister has, which is exactly that; it was very pricey at the time she bought hers), not the form of TiVO a cable company sells you (which may very well work differently, even though TiVO does sell standalones directly to the public; those ones don't look very latest-grade; TiVO's main market is "through cable-companies").

As far as I know the tuner in my sister's Panasonic hard-disc/DVD recorder is exactly like the tuners in VCRs, except that the Panasonic is "digital capable" & of course my soon-to-be-discarded, if this setup works out, VCRs are not. So you get a device with an event-timer & tuner pulling in what you want when you want it. And recording it only if you set it up to do that. The only problem with this would be "but I can't see that signal on my set, 'cause the signal is digital, & the set is analog".

That's what the converter box would be for; its tuner, since the ones I bought do have them, would be set to "vacant channel 3", it would get input from the hard-disc/DVR, convert it to analog, & send it on to my TV set.

What makes this setup simpler than the previous kludge, with the converter box getting the signal 1st, is not having to setup the converter tuner & recording-device timer in tandem. As long as the converter is on, it will convert the signal it gets & pass it along.

TiVo's market is not through cable companies; they'd much rather rent you their own boxes.

I don't know if your DVR can record off-air digital signals or just through the cable. Cable digital signals aren't just HDTV.

The converters they're selling are not just D-to-A converters, they're also tuners. They take the HDTV channels and output an analog signal.

Besides a converter box you'll need an HDTV antenna too.

Are you aware that they now have 32-inch HDTVs selling for under $500?

[ghostjmf]

BobJuch says:

I don't know if your DVR can record off-air digital signals or just through the cable. Cable digital signals aren't just HDTV.

My sister's Panasonic hard-disc/DVD tuner/recorder can record "through the air" signals if you want it to. She does have cable, though, so doesn't do this (its a very cruddy cable co, whose analog channel signals are often much better than their HD channel signals these days, & don't break up as often, either). Hers is regular-digital & HD-digital; when she bought it, this was all new to the market, so she had to be very sure it would work in the HD-digital future.

The hard-disc/DVD tuner definitely does work on the HD channels, which the cable co she uses has sequestered up in the high, high number series of channels.

I agree that if I went "2nd setup idea" route, I would need an HD antenna, because the recording quality would depend on the quality of the from-the-air signal going in to the recorder.


If I stay with original "co-ordinate 2 timing devices" setup, I don't need a new antenna, according to everybody I've read stuff from who has already done this. If you're pulling in a digital signal just to convert it to analog, then recording it on those old analog VCRs, what your old antenna pulls in will be good enough to convert.

(I was wondering about the amplifier on my antenna, & whether it will amplify "the right aspects" of the digital signal [I have no idea if I have just invented a distinction that doesn't exist here], but that's something I'll find out when the time comes. The current setup actually works fine without the amplifier; the amplifier helped mostly with a Rhode Island UHF station I used to be able to watch, but that station is either no longer broadcasting a powerful enough signal for me to pick up at all, or somebody built a large building in the signal path, or both.)

The converters they're selling are not just D-to-A converters, they're also tuners. They take the HDTV channels and output an analog signal.

I see what you're saying here; I forgot about the converter boxes not working as just a pass-through converter. I don't know if the ones I bought have that as an added neato feature or not (at least I don't know yet).



If they don't do pass-through conversion, I guess I'm back to setup #1.

Oh well it (setup #2) was a nice idea while it lasted.

Are you aware that they now have 32-inch HDTVs selling for under $500?

Yeah, but Sharp Aquus (or however they spell it) isn't quite at that price range yet.

And I'd say that the "under $500" HD models do not give as good a picture as a good old Sony Trinitron analog set. Neither, actually, does the Sharp Aquus, in my opinion, & I know this because that's what my sister bought. It may be a matter of taste here; I want warmth to the color as well as the clarity gotten by lotsa pixels.

The whole point of this converter box deal is to spend as little extra money as possible until the market settles down, & machines that can actually do what I want them to do are available (or are not, because too few people want them).

I have only seen TiVO deals through cable companies, for example. If they will rent me one independent of cable that records 2 stations at once, like some hard-disc/DVRs can now do, I'd consider renting for a while. But I have to also be able to cut a disc when I want to keep a program, & I have to be able to do this without dancing through some set of industry restrictions on what I can copy to disc. I can copy anything to video casette, because the industry decided not to try to restrict what they consider "low quality" copies.

[Bob Juch]

My sister's hard-disc/DVD tuner/recorder can record "through the air" signals if you want it to. She does have cable, though, so doesn't do this (very cruddy cable co, whose analog channel signals are often much better than their HD channel signals these days, & which don't break up as often, either). Hers is regular-digital & HD-digital; when she bought it, this was all new to the market, so she had to be very sure it would work in the HD-digital future.

I agree that if I went "2nd setup idea" route, I would need an HD antenna, because the recording quality would depend on the quality of the from-the-air signal going in to the recorder.


If I stay with original "co-ordinate 2 timing devices" setup, I don't need a new antenna, according to everybody I've read stuff from who has already done this. If you're pulling in a digital signal just to convert it to analog, then recording it on those old analog VCRs, what your old antenna pulls in will be good enough to convert.

(I was wondering about the amplifier on my antenna, & whether it will amplify "the right aspects" of the digital signal [I have no idea if I have just invented a distinction that doesn't exist here], but that's something I'll find out when the time comes. The current setup actually works fine without the amplifier; the amplifier helped mostly with a Rhode Island UHF station I used to be able to watch, but that station is either no longer broadcasting a powerful enough signal for me to pick up at all, or somebody built a large building in the signal path, or both.)

The converters they're selling are not just D-to-A converters, they're also tuners. They take the HDTV channels and output an analog signal.

I see what you're saying here; I forgot about the converter boxes not working as just a pass-through converter. I don't know if the ones I bought have that as an added neato feature or not (at least I don't know yet).

If they don't do pass-through conversion, I guess I'm back to setup #1.

Oh well it (setup #2) was a nice idea while it lasted.

Are you aware that they now have 32-inch HDTVs selling for under $500?

Yeah, but Sharp Aquus (or however they spell it) isn't quite at that price range yet.

And I'd say that the "under $500" HD models do not give as good a picture as a good old Sony Trinitron analog set. Neither, actually, does the Sharp Aquus, in my opinion, & I know this because that's what my sister bought. It may be a matter of taste here; I want warmth to the color as well as the clarity gotten by lotsa pixels.

The whole point of this converter box deal is to spend as little extra money as possible until the market settles down, & machines that can actually do what I want them to do are available (or are not, because too few people want them).

I have only seen TiVO deals through cable companies, for example. If they will rent me one independent of cable that records 2 stations at once, like some hard-disc/DVRs can now do, I'd consider renting for a while. But I have to also be able to cut a disc when I want to keep a program, & I have to be able to do this without dancing through some set of industry restrictions on what I can copy to disc. I can copy anything to video casette, because the industry decided not to try to restrict what they consider "low quality" copies.

There's analog, digital and HD digital. My cable box has hundreds of digital channels on it, but only about 30 are HD. The others are standard 4x3 525-line analog signals that the cable company converts to digital so that they can fit more through the cable.

The converter boxes take an HDTV broadcast channel and convert it to analog - period. Well, they also allow the old analog signals to pass-through.

You're right that many under-$500 HDTVs are junk. Many have just 720P screens. There are some that are the full 1080P however.

[ghostjmf]

now that I've been thinking about this more, setup #2 actually would work. (I haven't actually been thinking about this for 6 hours & come back to work to write about it; I've been at a very nice ballad conference in one of the nice old buildings in that University in Cambridge in a parallel universe, one of those buildings with the gracefully carved woodwork all over, unlike the engineering HQ building I work in, which just got a zillion-dollar indoor facelift that left it looking like a 50s office building instead of nice old engineering building HQ with wide halls & exposed brick & such that it used to be; the renovators apparently never got the message that exposed brick is in these days, & 50s-ish sheetrock & industrial-strength carpeting is not. I came back to pee, actually, as finding an actual bathroom without a native guide in wonderful old gracious carved-woodwork building was beyond me, & my job place is on the way to my car anyway.)

vacant channel 3 is the key.

The setup for people doing setup #1 is "converter box with tuner, putting analog output into VCR, which is set by its timer to go on at right time, but is tuned in to vacant channel 3".

All VCRs already are set to send vacant channel 3 (well, channel 4 in some places, channel 3 in Boston area) to the TV. TV has to be tuned in, by its tuner, to vacant channel 3 to get the picture the VCR is sending it.

The key to letting a VCR merely be a "time the tape will go on & off" machine, instead of a tuner, is to set its tuner to tune in that vacant channel 3. Then, when the converter box is used to take over the tuner function, & tune in an actual live channel (& convert it to analog), the converter box will send its output out on vacant channel 3. The VCR merely has to be set up to receive it. So I have been told by people who are so eager to watch HD weather channels or whatever else is broadcast in HD for free on their analog TVs that they have already set their converter boxes up. And their analog VCRs along with them.


So my setup #2 would have an HD-receptive hard-disc/DVD recorder both tuning in the signal & setting the timer for recording. And putting out, on vacant channel 3, an HD signal.

If I pipe that signal into a converter box that is tuned to vacant channel 3, the converter box should convert the signal being piped in to it on channel 3 by the hard-disc/DVD recorder, & pass it out, also on channel 3, to the TV, which will receive an analog signal on channel 3, & play it.

I am told this will work. You say it will not. Eventually, I will try to find out before I actually buy (or even rent, unless its really easy to cancel the rental) an HD-receptive hard-disc/DVD recorder.

By the way, I'm not trying to be totally obnoxious by saying "hard-disc/DVD recorder". Its all because a while ago I had an argument with somebody here who insisted that their DVR was somethin' special whereas my sister's Panasonic hard-disc/DVD recorder was, I don't know, the video gear from Mars or something. I don't know what officially makes a piece of electronics worthy of being called "DVR", but it turns out, she says, hers can do all that "backtrack the show while you are recording, watch from the earlier time, but still get the whole show recorded" calisthenics. It turns out she doesn't use it because she doesn't want to do anything that could inadvertantly mess up the recording, & she doesn't want to bewilder my mother with video tricks either (my poor mom is bewildered enough these days by the effects of strokes on short-term memory). Also, her HD hard disc machine is linked up to the TV, 2 lowly analog VCRs, & of course the variously-split cable (some coming through an extra-channel box, some not) in a system that would have Fanny & co reeling off the walls of their padded cells. Its kind of hard not to mess up the setup while playing with the controls even if you are my sister.

So maybe my sister has the granddaddy/mommy of all TiVOs, which didn't come out as a brand, or at least one anybody had heard of, 'til a year or 2 after she bought it. (From Panasonic, not TiVO.)

It definitely does burn discs if you want them; it can burn them from what you've stored on the hard drive, or it can record directly on to the disc. She has to finalize a disc before I can take it home & play it in my VCR that also has a built-in DVD player-only. Once it refused to finalize something I wanted to take home but fortunately had already watched, saying "there is nothing on this disc", & so there wasn't, not any more. It has done other cranky things of late. It is getting old, in hard-disc/DVD recorder years, though it seems like only yesterday she bought it. For a great deal of money.

If we all had known that a year or two later, stuff called "TiVO" that did much the same stuff would be available for rent, maybe she would have gone that route. Maybe not. We both have a prediliction for owning our own electronics. But the lease idea does have value if the company you're leasing from upgrades what you have for you regularly.

[Bob Juch]

now that I've been thinking about this more, setup #2 actually would work. (I haven't actually been thinking about this for 6 hours & come back to work to write about it; I've been at a very nice ballad conference in one of the nice old buildings in that University in Cambridge in a parallel universe, one of those buildings with the gracefully carved woodwork all over, unlike the engineering HQ building I work in, which just got a zillion-dollar indoor facelift that left it looking like a 50s office building instead of nice old engineering building HQ with wide halls & exposed brick & such that it used to be; the renovators apparently never got the message that exposed brick is in these days, & 50s-ish sheetrock & industrial-strength carpeting is not. I came back to pee, actually, as finding an actual bathroom without a native guide in wonderful old gracious carved-woodwork building was beyond me, & my job place is on the way to my car anyway.)

vacant channel 3 is the key.

The setup for people doing setup #1 is "converter box with tuner, putting analog output into VCR, which is set by its timer to go on at right time, but is tuned in to vacant channel 3".

All VCRs already are set to send vacant channel 3 (well, channel 4 in some places, channel 3 in Boston area) to the TV. TV has to be tuned in, by its tuner, to vacant channel 3 to get the picture the VCR is sending it.

The key to letting a VCR merely be a "time the tape will go on & off" machine, instead of a tuner, is to set its tuner to tune in that vacant channel 3. Then, when the converter box is used to take over the tuner function, & tune in an actual live channel (& convert it to analog), the converter box will send its output out on vacant channel 3. The VCR merely has to be set up to receive it. So I have been told by people who are so eager to watch HD weather channels or whatever else is broadcast in HD for free on their analog TVs that they have already set their converter boxes up. And their analog VCRs along with them.


So my setup #2 would have an HD-receptive hard-disc/DVD recorder both tuning in the signal & setting the timer for recording. And putting out, on vacant channel 3, an HD signal.

If I pipe that signal into a converter box that is tuned to vacant channel 3, the converter box should convert the signal being piped in to it on channel 3 by the hard-disc/DVD recorder, & pass it out, also on channel 3, to the TV, which will receive an analog signal on channel 3, & play it.

I am told this will work. You say it will not. Eventually, I will try to find out before I actually buy (or even rent, unless its really easy to cancel the rental) an HD-receptive hard-disc/DVD recorder.

By the way, I'm not trying to be totally obnoxious by saying "hard-disc/DVD recorder". Its all because a while ago I had an argument with somebody here who insisted that their DVR was somethin' special whereas my sister's Panasonic hard-disc/DVD recorder was, I don't know, the video gear from Mars or something. I don't know what officially makes a piece of electronics worthy of being called "DVR", but it turns out, she says, hers can do all that "backtrack the show while you are recording, watch from the earlier time, but still get the whole show recorded" calisthenics. It turns out she doesn't use it because she doesn't want to do anything that could inadvertantly mess up the recording, & she doesn't want to bewilder my mother with video tricks either (my poor mom is bewildered enough these days by the effects of strokes on short-term memory). Also, her HD hard disc machine is linked up to the TV, 2 lowly analog VCRs, & of course the variously-split cable (some coming through an extra-channel box, some not) in a system that would have Fanny & co reeling off the walls of their padded cells. Its kind of hard not to mess up the setup while playing with the controls even if you are my sister.

So maybe my sister has the granddaddy/mommy of all TiVOs, which didn't come out as a brand, or at least one anybody had heard of, 'til a year or 2 after she bought it. (From Panasonic, not TiVO.)

It definitely does burn discs if you want them; it can burn them from what you've stored on the hard drive, or it can record directly on to the disc. She has to finalize a disc before I can take it home & play it in my VCR that also has a built-in DVD player-only. Once it refused to finalize something I wanted to take home but fortunately had already watched, saying "there is nothing on this disc", & so there wasn't, not any more. It has done other cranky things of late. It is getting old, in hard-disc/DVD recorder years, though it seems like only yesterday she bought it. For a great deal of money.

If we all had known that a year or two later, stuff called "TiVO" that did much the same stuff would be available for rent, maybe she would have gone that route. Maybe not. We both have a prediliction for owning our own electronics. But the lease idea does have value if the company you're leasing from upgrades what you have for you regularly.

No, your DVR can not put an HD signal out on channel 3.

[ghostjmf]

BobJuch says:

No, your DVR can not put an HD signal out on channel 3.

Well, that would be the clincher right there. I wouldn't want one then. I am not sure if my sister's Panasonic does put an HD signal out on channel 3 or not; she has cable going directly into the TV, & a split from it before it goes in to the TV going directly into the Panasonic. And a connector between the Panasonic & the TV, of course. Among many, many other cables.

But since VCRs do put out a signal (admittedly analog, but a signal) on channel 3, why wouldn't they build a DVR to do so as well? Special output jacks with cables going to special input jacks on the HDTVs, but no channel 3 output, huh? I can buy that (concept, that is), but I can't spend the money to actually buy the relevant equipment, then. A DVR & an HDTV are, uh, somewhere down the yellow brick road. And an HD antenna too, because I really don't want cable. I watch so too-much TV anyway without it.

They're advertising a Verizon cable service in my home town that lets you get only the channels you want instead of giant blocks of religious channels, right-wing channels, whatever. Channels in languages I cannot speak, too. However, it turns out to be priced exactly at the same level for basic service as the existing cable co.s (is that not remarkable?), & we can only guess what the "channels you want" blocks will cost.

They are not advertising this in Boston, not yet. And even when they do, they will not give you the CBC, which I want, in Boston, because none of the existing cable or satellite services offer it here. (They offer selections from the BBC, but no CBC.) In northwest Ohio, its in the "basic service channel block", as an area station you could pull in with an antenna, if you still had one.

[etaoin22]

I thank ghost for her vote for the CBC. Should send it to PTB in Ottawa; should Harper ever get a solid majority with little support in Quebec, the CBC is a goner.

I am still remembering my father back in say -- 1964 -- telling me about the black boxes which were soon going to be maybe on top of everyone's TV set with, of course, associated charges.

My response:

"WHY WOULD ANYONE EVER PAY FOR A BLACK BOX WHEN YOU CAN GET ALL THE TV YOU COULD POSSIBLY WANT WITH RABBIT EARS, OR A ROOF ANTENNA, FOR FREE????"

[Bob Juch]

BobJuch says:

No, your DVR can not put an HD signal out on channel 3.

Well, that would be the clincher right there. I wouldn't want one then. I am not sure if my sister's Panasonic does put an HD signal out on channel 3 or not; she has cable going directly into the TV, & a split from it before it goes in to the TV going directly into the Panasonic. And a connector between the Panasonic & the TV, of course. Among many, many other cables.

But since VCRs do put out a signal (admittedly analog, but a signal) on channel 3, why wouldn't they build a DVR to do so as well? Special output jacks with cables going to special input jacks on the HDTVs, but no channel 3 output, huh? I can buy that (concept, that is), but I can't spend the money to actually buy the relevant equipment, then. A DVR & an HDTV are, uh, somewhere down the yellow brick road. And an HD antenna too, because I really don't want cable. I watch so too-much TV anyway without it.

They're advertising a Verizon cable service in my home town that lets you get only the channels you want instead of giant blocks of religious channels, right-wing channels, whatever. Channels in languages I cannot speak, too. However, it turns out to be priced exactly at the same level for basic service as the existing cable co.s (is that not remarkable?), & we can only guess what the "channels you want" blocks will cost.

They are not advertising this in Boston, not yet. And even when they do, they will not give you the CBC, which I want, in Boston, because none of the existing cable or satellite services offer it here. (They offer selections from the BBC, but no CBC.) In northwest Ohio, its in the "basic service channel block", as an area station you could pull in with an antenna, if you still had one.

Channel 3 is analog only. Channel 3.1 would be HD. Any device that records an HD signal will be outputting it using either HDMI or YPbPr cables.

[ghostjmf]

BobJuch says:

Channel 3 is analog only. Channel 3.1 would be HD. Any device that records an HD signal will be outputting it using either HDMI or YPbPr cables.

Thanks for the clarification. Because I spoke to my sister about this after I wrote the previous message, & she said her Panasonic hard-disc/DVD recorder was putting out a signal on channel 3. I will ask her if it could be 3.1 instead. I had to program my VCRs to put signals out on analog channel 3; I'd bet she had to program her Panasonic to put its signal out on digital channel 3.1 to be read coherently by the HD Sharp Aquus.

I was misrepresenting her when I assumed, based on your previous statement that a DVR couldn't put a signal out on channel 3, that she must be splitting her cable signal & running it seperately into the Sharp Aquus & into the Panasonic. She says she is not; there are a lot of splits involved with the cable, as its also hooked up to 2 analog VCRs & a TV in another room, but, the picture we watch on the Sharp is always through the Panasonic or through one of the analog VCRs, not tuned in directly by the Sharp. I don't even know if the Sharp has a built-in tuner though for what it cost at the time it was bought, it ought to, in my opinion.

[Bob Juch]

BobJuch says:

Channel 3 is analog only. Channel 3.1 would be HD. Any device that records an HD signal will be outputting it using either HDMI or YPbPr cables.

Thanks for the clarification. Because I spoke to my sister about this after I wrote the previous message, & she said her Panasonic hard-disc/DVD recorder was putting out a signal on channel 3. I will ask her if it could be 3.1 instead. I had to program my VCRs to put signals out on analog channel 3; I'd bet she had to program her Panasonic to put its signal out on digital channel 3.1 to be read coherently by the HD Sharp Aquus.

I was misrepresenting her when I assumed, based on your previous statement that a DVR couldn't put a signal out on channel 3, that she must be splitting her cable signal & running it seperately into the Sharp Aquus & into the Panasonic. She says she is not; there are a lot of splits involved with the cable, as its also hooked up to 2 analog VCRs & a TV in another room, but, the picture we watch on the Sharp is always through the Panasonic or through one of the analog VCRs, not tuned in directly by the Sharp. I don't even know if the Sharp has a built-in tuner though for what it cost at the time it was bought, it ought to, in my opinion.

If she's watching anything that comes out of the DVR on channel 3, it's analog.

[ghostjmf]

BobJuch says:

If she's watching anything that comes out of the DVR on channel 3, it's analog.

I don't know if the Sharp Aquus, which the DVR pipes its signal into, even has a way to show analog; I'll have to check.


There is a difference in appearance in what appears on the HD digital channels, which her cable co puts on cable channel 600 & above, & what appears on the older, lower channels.

So I'd say by that criteria alone that she is receiving a digital signal out of her DVR, & stuff in HD on the special HD channels.

I also have to say that for my money, the difference in appearance on the HD digital channels isn't so wonderful I'd pay through the neck for it; the cable company is probably applying progressive scan, or some other magic process, to the programs on the lower # channels.

Also, the HD channels break up all the time. And that's when you can get them at all; a lot of time they tell you "channel not available". If this is a program also available on one of the broadcast-in-analog channels, you switch to that; if its an HD-only program, you feel really snookered by the cable co. I know a lot of people who, one way or another, feel really snookered by their cable co.

[Bob Juch]

BobJuch says:

If she's watching anything that comes out of the DVR on channel 3, it's analog.

I don't know if the Sharp Aquus, which the DVR pipes its signal into, even has a way to show analog; I'll have to check.


There is a difference in appearance in what appears on the HD digital channels, which her cable co puts on cable channel 600 & above, & what appears on the older, lower channels.

So I'd say by that criteria alone that she is receiving a digital signal out of her DVR, & stuff in HD on the special HD channels.

I also have to say that for my money, the difference in appearance on the HD digital channels isn't so wonderful I'd pay through the neck for it; the cable company is probably applying progressive scan, or some other magic process, to the programs on the lower # channels.

Also, the HD channels break up all the time. And that's when you can get them at all; a lot of time they tell you "channel not available". If this is a program also available on one of the broadcast-in-analog channels, you switch to that; if its an HD-only program, you feel really snookered by the cable co. I know a lot of people who, one way or another, feel really snookered by their cable co.

The Sharp Aquos displays analog signals. That's what every broadcast signal other than HDTV is.

I certainly hope your sister isn't using a cable out of her DVR to hook to her TV but instead is using HDMI or YPbPr cables.

[Bob Juch]

BobJuch says:

If she's watching anything that comes out of the DVR on channel 3, it's analog.

I don't know if the Sharp Aquus, which the DVR pipes its signal into, even has a way to show analog; I'll have to check.


There is a difference in appearance in what appears on the HD digital channels, which her cable co puts on cable channel 600 & above, & what appears on the older, lower channels.

So I'd say by that criteria alone that she is receiving a digital signal out of her DVR, & stuff in HD on the special HD channels.

I also have to say that for my money, the difference in appearance on the HD digital channels isn't so wonderful I'd pay through the neck for it; the cable company is probably applying progressive scan, or some other magic process, to the programs on the lower # channels.

Also, the HD channels break up all the time. And that's when you can get them at all; a lot of time they tell you "channel not available". If this is a program also available on one of the broadcast-in-analog channels, you switch to that; if its an HD-only program, you feel really snookered by the cable co. I know a lot of people who, one way or another, feel really snookered by their cable co.

The Sharp Aquos displays analog signals. That's what every broadcast signal other than HDTV is.

I certainly hope your sister isn't using a cable out of her DVR to hook to her TV but instead is using HDMI or YPbPr cables.

[littlebeast13]

This thread is hurting my head......

lb13

[ghostjmf]

BobJuch says:

I certainly hope your sister isn't using a cable out of her DVR to hook to her TV but instead is using HDMI or YPbPr cables.

She is using that recommended $100.00 (ripoff! even though she did get it at a discount from $100.00) S-cable (or whatever they call it) in some kind of arrangement she was going to detail to me but even my head was hurting at that point.

Before she got the recommended cable arrangement, she was getting Neon Disney Pastels for her color palette. Despite being an artist, who can really mix colors good, which she spent time doing, she couldn't get the neon-pastel effect to go away. That's when she realized she really did need that S (or whatever) cable; she had thought it was just a gimmick from the people who sold her the TV. It kind of sucks that that expensive a TV doesn't ship with all the right cables.

I still don't like the Aquos colors as well as those on a Trinitron. About the only HD TV I've seen that I liked the colors on was a plasma by I-forget-who, & still I didn't like those colors as well as the colors on a Trinitron,either.

And since I watch a 13" TV across a 12-ft room, the selling point of HD, that super-clarity of picture (albeit with non-mellowed colors even when they should be) isn't much of a selling point, as just about anything looks good, albeit tiny, on a 13" screen, providing its tuned in. If I had a bigger viewing distance I would be an easier sell for HD-TV (or at least a 20-something-" Trinitron, which I understand are really cheap these days).

I have watched supposedly HD stuff from the networks on this monitor at work, after hours. HD? hah hah hah. Not on a ThinkVision 18"-diagonal (15"-across) monitor.


What I'm worried about most of all on my intended future converter box setup is sound. I've read reports that some VCRs record the DTVPal signal with a hiss or something you don't get when watching live. That will drive me nuts if it happens with my setup. Might even drive me to an expensive new setup.

It basically drives me nuts anyway (no comments, peanut gallery) that people care so much about picture (& selling off lotsa signal space, of course) that they're changing the whole way we broadcast picture, but care so little about sound that the big push for years in digital recording was not "how true a sound can we represent" but rather "how much information can we ditch, so we save space on storing or sending this sound signal, which no-one apparently gives a hoot about". They've only recently come out with portable digital recorders below the professional studio price level that produce wav(?) files, which are reputedly even more faithful to the real thing than CD files. Not that I would have anything capable of playing wav files.

But most of the universe is very happy with MP3 sound files, which are way too compressed for me.

[Bob Juch]

An S-cable is for analog and is the second-worst option for sending video (an antenna cable being the worst).

No cable is worth $100! It was probably a Monster cable which exist only to make a lot of money for the folks who sell them.

[ghostjmf]

BobJuch:

An S-cable is for analog and is the second-worst option for sending video (an antenna cable being the worst).

No cable is worth $100! It was probably a Monster cable which exist only to make a lot of money for the folks who sell them.

Remember that when she bought the Aquos, her cable company wasn't even sending shows out in digital, not to mention high-def digital. It is now, so she's upgraded her cabling I'm sure.
That's one of the reasons why operating her setup is such a headache; you have to know what form of signal your source is sending & tell the TV to expect input from that source (& you have to have set up the source correctly). It has an on-screen menu for that, but still. There are also, of course, about 6 different remotes, with overlapping, but of course not completely overlapping functions.

Boston area stations today did a co-ordinated preswitch event; they advertised for people to turn on channel 2, the VHF PBS station, which was running a test of digital transmission. If your set is not set up to get a digital signal (converted-to-analog is OK, but not pure analog) you got a program with writing at the bottom telling you "this set is not ready for digital", while that much-too-simple program about how to use a converter box ran all day.

They weren't telling me anything I didn't know already (I want to be able to use my event timers & tuners in easy co-ordination, which means keeping those analog VCRs receiving unconverted signals, 'til the bitter end) but I'd bet a lot of people who watch digital-ready TVs through analog VCRs as tuners got a nasty surprise.


By, the way, from what I've read, an HD antenna is another opportunity for companies to rip people off. All you really need is to find a way to get pieces of metal pointing in as many directions at once hooked in to one piece of metal that is connected to an output jack, which in my system will be "male", 'cause my TV antenna/cable input jack is an "innie", or "female".

And yes, that is "jack", singular. Only has one. I bought the TV in '87. It is still working, & it gets a lot mileage. I hope it doesn't stop working just because I've praised it here. Ditto for my car, which is just as old, also has a lot of mileage (224,000 & counting) & gives way more signs that it needs imminent replacement than does my TV.

You really ought to be able to make yourself an HD antenna of a big multi-loop bow twisted out of radio antenna wire (some people have suggested this), but of course that wire ends in 2 little bits (2 for stereo) of exposed wire, or at best a tiny "u" connector meant to go around a screw, rather than ending in an "outie" jack. There's probably a good way to do this that involves buyng parts. Or else its all BS & won't work at all anyway.

With good old rabbit ears hooked onto a cable, which is what I currently have, there is always "walking around the room with your antenna". With digital, because of the weaker, broader-banded & more-directional signal, there will be a lot more walking around. Now, if an expensive HD antenna really would cut the walking-around down, I guess I would go for one.

[Bob Juch]

I suggest you don't model your system after your sister's.