Hey Joe Maddon...wanna win the ALCS?

[Jeemie]

Then put away your charts and stop tracking friggin' pitch counts and MANAGE, for crying out loud!

What you did yesterday was criminal. yeah- Scott Kazmir had thrown 111 pitches, and yeah, he's a young arm, but dammit, there is no medical study that shows 100+ pitches is too straining on an arm. None whatsoever.

Kazmir was pitching a shutout, and had settled down quite a bit from a rocky beginning. You DO NOT take him out after only six innings.

NOT in the clinching game of the postseason.

You win yesterday, and Kazmir has a week to rest up.

This is the postseason- you let it all hang out, and don't mess with what's working.

I really don't care who wins the series, but DAMMIT, I hate this obsession with pitch counts.

[gsabc]

(Disclaimer: I am a Red Sox fan, but did not watch the game at all. I did not expect them to win, nor have I expected them to win the series from the start.)

I disagree. Kazmir has been one of their aces all year. The bullpen has been one of the best all year. So take him out and let the bullpen mop up. There was no reason to think that they'd implode.

111 pitches over eight innings, you might leave him in to try to finish the game and get the complete game shutout. After only six? Why would you, with such a good bullpen?

[Jeemie]

(Disclaimer: I am a Red Sox fan, but did not watch the game at all. I did not expect them to win, nor have I expected them to win the series from the start.)

I disagree. Kazmir has been one of their aces all year. The bullpen has been one of the best all year. So take him out and let the bullpen mop up. There was no reason to think that they'd implode.

111 pitches over eight innings, you might leave him in to try to finish the game and get the complete game shutout. After only six? Why would you, with such a good bullpen?

Pitchers should never be taken out on the basis of ptich counts....but only if they're showing signs they can't get the job done.

That's what I believe...and that's what I'm sticking to.

[clem21]

(Disclaimer: I am a Red Sox fan, but did not watch the game at all. I did not expect them to win, nor have I expected them to win the series from the start.)

I disagree. Kazmir has been one of their aces all year. The bullpen has been one of the best all year. So take him out and let the bullpen mop up. There was no reason to think that they'd implode.

111 pitches over eight innings, you might leave him in to try to finish the game and get the complete game shutout. After only six? Why would you, with such a good bullpen?

Pitchers should never be taken out on the basis of ptich counts....but only if they're showing signs they can't get the job done.

That's what I believe...and that's what I'm sticking to.

Look I wanted the Rays to win as much as anyone but I can't blame Maddon for taking Kazmir out. The guy's had arm strain problems his whole career and the Rays had a big lead so...

[littlebeast13]

(Disclaimer: I am a Red Sox fan, but did not watch the game at all. I did not expect them to win, nor have I expected them to win the series from the start.)

I disagree. Kazmir has been one of their aces all year. The bullpen has been one of the best all year. So take him out and let the bullpen mop up. There was no reason to think that they'd implode.

111 pitches over eight innings, you might leave him in to try to finish the game and get the complete game shutout. After only six? Why would you, with such a good bullpen?

Pitchers should never be taken out on the basis of ptich counts....but only if they're showing signs they can't get the job done.

That's what I believe...and that's what I'm sticking to.

Look I wanted the Rays to win as much as anyone but I can't blame Maddon for taking Kazmir out. The guy's had arm strain problems his whole career and the Rays had a big lead so...

Having played in the BBBL with jeemie for 5 years, I can assure you that jeemie is purely old school, "pitch the guy until his arm falls off", and nothing will change his mind about Maddon's decision to remve Kazmir being the wrong one. I love his rants everytime one if his BBBL pitchers got pulled with a shutout in the 9th....

I didn't get home to watch the game until the score was already 7-4, but I can say that any bullpen, let alone the strong one Tampa Bay had most of the year, should be able to hold a 7 run lead for 3 innings. This is akin to running out your #1 or 2 starter and having him get lit up for 7 runs right away (ala Beckett in Game 2). The decision was sound, it just didn't work on that particular night....

lb13

[Jeemie]

Having played in the BBBL with jeemie for 5 years, I can assure you that jeemie is purely old school, "pitch the guy until his arm falls off", and nothing will change his mind about Maddon's decision to remve Kazmir being the wrong one. I love his rants everytime one if his BBBL pitchers got pulled with a shutout in the 9th....

Hey! On many of those occasions, the starter not only had a shutout, but was at ~100 pitches or LESS when they were pulled...simply because it was a save situation and that's what they have a closer for! (Not to mention the double-whammy of taking away what little advantages my sucky teams would accrue!)

But yes- I am old school. I know Maddon didn't expect his bullpen to implode like that, but if a pitcher is going good and has a shutout, there is no problem with letting him go until you see he can't go any longer.

And I also believe that pitchers have "arm strains" and the like nowadays PRECISELY because of the pitch count bullcrap.

In the days of the four-man rotation and complete game, you didn't see this stuff happen as much as it does today.

Anyhow, it's quite possible that the Rays would still have lost- I just don't like "push-button" managers. Manging by charts and pitch counts is definitely my biggest pet peeve about today's game.

[littlebeast13]

Having played in the BBBL with jeemie for 5 years, I can assure you that jeemie is purely old school, "pitch the guy until his arm falls off", and nothing will change his mind about Maddon's decision to remve Kazmir being the wrong one. I love his rants everytime one if his BBBL pitchers got pulled with a shutout in the 9th....

Hey! On many of those occasions, the starter not only had a shutout, but was at ~100 pitches or LESS when they were pulled...simply because it was a save situation and that's what they have a closer for! (Not to mention the double-whammy of taking away what little advantages my sucky teams would accrue!)

But yes- I am old school. I know Maddon didn't expect his bullpen to implode like that, but if a pitcher is going good and has a shutout, there is no problem with letting him go until you see he can't go any longer.

And I also believe that pitchers have "arm strains" and the like nowadays PRECISELY because of the pitch count bullcrap.

In the days of the four-man rotation and complete game, you didn't see this stuff happen as much as it does today.

Anyhow, it's quite possible that the Rays would still have lost- I just don't like "push-button" managers. Manging by charts and pitch counts is definitely my biggest pet peeve about today's game.

My heart really wants to agree with you on returning to that old school mentality for starting pitchers, but the current state of the game dictates otherwise.

Bullpens used to be full of guys who just weren't good enough to be starters. Now half of the guys in the bullpen have better stuff than the starting pitcher they're replacing does. Bullpens are desgined now to pitch the last 2 or 3 innings of every game.... and Tampa's was one of the best all year. It's almost as useless to hang on to hope for a return to the old days of starting pitching as it is for those who continue to whine about wanting to eliminate the DH....

lb13

[minimetoo26]

We need to eliminate the DH!!!!!

Okay, that was just for beast. But honestly, it's not like Tampa had just acquired the Mets' bullpen or anything. The decision was a sound one; it just didn't pan out.

[littlebeast13]

We need to eliminate the DH!!!!!

Okay, that was just for beast. But honestly, it's not like Tampa had just acquired the Mets' bullpen or anything. The decision was a sound one; it just didn't pan out.

Something tells me the DH will be eliminated before all the HK imagery around here....

lb13

[minimetoo26]

We need to eliminate the DH!!!!!

Okay, that was just for beast. But honestly, it's not like Tampa had just acquired the Mets' bullpen or anything. The decision was a sound one; it just didn't pan out.

Something tells me the DH will be eliminated before all the HK imagery around here....

lb13

I got yer DH....DANGLIN'!!!! From a keychain.....

[Rexer25]

We need to eliminate the DH!!!!!

Okay, that was just for beast. But honestly, it's not like Tampa had just acquired the Mets' bullpen or anything. The decision was a sound one; it just didn't pan out.

Something tells me the DH will be eliminated before all the HK imagery around here....

lb13

I got yer DH....DANGLIN'!!!! From a keychain.....

(image deleted for mercy's sake)

I must switch languages to properly express my feelings...

[Rexer Tex-Mex]El Puko Grande![/RTM]

[clem21]

This a sports thread dammit! A very manly sports thread! So keep you pervasive evil kitties out of here! (BTW cute new avatar no?)

[minimetoo26]

Something tells me the DH will be eliminated before all the HK imagery around here....

lb13

I got yer DH....DANGLIN'!!!! From a keychain.....

(image deleted for mercy's sake)

I must switch languages to properly express my feelings...

[Rexer Tex-Mex]El Puko Grande![/RTM]

Here ya go, Rexer!

[littlebeast13]

I'm going to have to tweak's mini's title to Pain in Everyone's Ass.....

lb13

[minimetoo26]

I'm going to have to tweak's mini's title to Pain in Everyone's Ass.....

lb13

Make it "Royal Pain" so I can get a HK tiara to go with it....

[minimetoo26]

Or "Hello Kitty's Beyotch"

[etaoin22]

I am with Jeemie, old school or non old school.

Kazmir was pitching very easily in the middle innings.
The decision to remove was probably taken with a score of 5-0.

My take was that there was a little bit of hubris and maybe more than a little, that Joe assumed the game was in the bag, wanted his pitcher maximally rested for the Series. I am not as sure now, after seeing that 111 pitch count, just because of that fr. "1" in the middle. Maybe the owners would fire him for risking their investment.

Nevertheless, asking a "good" bullpen against a top offensive team in a hitters' park to go three innings is risky. Fact is, you will be using someone who is your seventh or eighth top talent on the staff in one of the innings, rather than your first or second best. Risky. Two innings is so much easier, because the looming final outs are a strategic/tactical reality.

ah silly me for trying to write baseball in a baseball thread. Hello Kitty's Angels are here!

Jeemie you must be a Roy Halladay fan!

[minimetoo26]

And Clem--LOVE the avatar! It fits my name pretty well, too!

[littlebeast13]

I'm going to have to tweak's mini's title to Pain in Everyone's Ass.....

lb13

Make it "Royal Pain" so I can get a HK tiara to go with it....

I'm going to have to play around with the new Admin Control panel before I figure out how to add a new rank, and it's time for lunch so that will have to wait for later...

I did find the screen to delete a certain annoying Bored format however. It was soooooooooooooo tempting.......

lb13

[Rexer25]

I got yer DH....DANGLIN'!!!! From a keychain.....

(image deleted for mercy's sake)

I must switch languages to properly express my feelings...

[Rexer Tex-Mex]El Puko Grande![/RTM]

Here ya go, Rexer!

Did you bring enough to share with everyone on the bored?

[minimetoo26]

I'm going to have to tweak's mini's title to Pain in Everyone's Ass.....

lb13

Make it "Royal Pain" so I can get a HK tiara to go with it....

I'm going to have to play around with the new Admin Control panel before I figure out how to add a new rank, and it's time for lunch so that will have to wait for later...

I did find the screen to delete a certain annoying Bored format however. It was soooooooooooooo tempting.......

lb13

Ready whenever YOU are, sweetie!

[BigDrawMan]

Then put away your charts and stop tracking friggin' pitch counts and MANAGE, for crying out loud!

What you did yesterday was criminal. yeah- Scott Kazmir had thrown 111 pitches, and yeah, he's a young arm, but dammit, there is no medical study that shows 100+ pitches is too straining on an arm. None whatsoever.

Kazmir was pitching a shutout, and had settled down quite a bit from a rocky beginning. You DO NOT take him out after only six innings.

NOT in the clinching game of the postseason.

You win yesterday, and Kazmir has a week to rest up.

This is the postseason- you let it all hang out, and don't mess with what's working.

I really don't care who wins the series, but DAMMIT, I hate this obsession with pitch counts.

but thats the way TOny LaRussa taught all managers to do things.

[Jeemie]

It's almost as useless to hang on to hope for a return to the old days of starting pitching as it is for those who continue to whine about wanting to eliminate the DH....

lb13

Um...I HAVE to whine.

Tan showed that's how you win BBBL Championships.

I'm just getting in more offseason practice time!

[Jeemie]

Jeemie you must be a Roy Halladay fan!

I love me Roy Halladay.

And Jack McKeon is my favoritest manager this decade. The way he managed the Marlins' pitching staff in the 2003 post-season made me think it was the 1930s all over again!

[Evil Kitty]

This a sports thread dammit! A very manly sports thread! So keep you pervasive evil kitties out of here! (BTW cute new avatar no?)

You rang?