Pro-Life

[christie1111]

Thankfully, I grew into a better person.

I take more offense to this than to your opinion. Just because you have a different opinion than I do, does not make you a better person.

Or me worse.

[earendel]

Thankfully, I grew into a better person.

I take more offense to this than to your opinion. Just because you have a different opinion than I do, does not make you a better person.

Or me worse.

Well, in fairness, I don't think daniel was saying he was better than anyone else, only that he was better than he was before.

[earendel]

Thankfully, I grew into a better person.

I take more offense to this than to your opinion. Just because you have a different opinion than I do, does not make you a better person.

Or me worse.

Well, in fairness, I don't think daniel was saying he considered himself to be better than anyone else, only that he considered himself to be better than he was before his change of heart.

[tlynn78]

FWIW, I totally didn't read that as I'm a better person (than you). Seeking to become better humans is what makes us human. That, and stumbling along the way.


t.

[danielh41]

Thankfully, I grew into a better person.

I take more offense to this than to your opinion. Just because you have a different opinion than I do, does not make you a better person.

Or me worse.

You're a little late. I've already posted a clarification on that statement...

[frogman042]

I certainly never claimed to be a better person than anyone else. I only claimed that I was a becoming a better person than I was before. If anyone took that to mean that I claimed to be better person than someone who claimed to be pro-choice, then I apologize.

I only meant to detail my personal journey from pro-choice/ambivalent to pro-life.

Like me ask this and I hope it is not unfair to ask - although I don't know in all honesty if you can truly answer it (I don't mean that a slight, I mean that I'm not sure it is a fair question that anyone could truly answer - somethings just can't be broken out and still remain intact).

If your personal journey that you underwent went exactly the same with the exception that you didn't leave your pro-choice stance - for example you might still personally oppose abortion but still recognize that it would be up to each female to control what is done to their own body - would you still consider yourself a better person then before you embarked on your journey?

I hope this question isn't too personal and it is not meant to be antigonistic, I'm just trying to get a handle on if you think you can ever reconcile you beliefs with one that allows choice for others and if you think that holding the belief that others can be pro-choice would for you make you feel you were not as good a person or not?

I personally tend to try to look at these types of belief systems as one where I could be wrong, think about what it would take to convince me to be wrong and look for that evidence as opposed to looking only for evidence that confirms my beliefs. For me this is a win-win approach, if I look to disprove my beliefs and find it hard to do that, I feel that it adds just a little more validation to them, and if I do succeed in shaking or disproving my beliefs I feel I've grown and gained new knowledge and insights. I wish that any of these so-called debate/discussion shows on TV where they usually end up yelling over each other started with asking each person - what would it take for them to drop their position and take up the other sides - it would be a better discussion - if they answer, 'Nothing I'm sure I'm right' - then why have a debate/discussion, because IMO, that person has shut himself off from the learning process.

---Jay

[mrkelley23]

If your post was really gratuitous (which I think it was not), then don't bother reading what I have to say. If it wasn't gratuitous and you wrote it with the intention, the hope, the wish to change someone's opinion on the abortion issue, I have some advice.

Don't say that you became a better person when you changed your position. It makes someone with a differing opinion think that you think they are a worse person than you are. It lessens the chance of them wanting to listen to you or read you, in this case.

Also, don't minimize what you had to say with a parting one liner.

I was being sarcastic. My other anti-abortion anti-Obama post was marked as gratuitous right out of the gate, so I thought I would beat mrkelley23 to the punch.

Regardless of what disagreements we may have on this subject, allow me to clear one misconception (if you'll pardon the phrase) right now. My statement about a gratuitous post in response to your earlier post was a reference to mine, not yours. I respect your right to hold and state your opinion, even though I disagree with it. Posting your feelings is not gratuitous.

My post, which merely said "thanks for sharing," was definitely gratuitous, and I labeled it as such.

[danielh41]

I certainly never claimed to be a better person than anyone else. I only claimed that I was a becoming a better person than I was before. If anyone took that to mean that I claimed to be better person than someone who claimed to be pro-choice, then I apologize.

I only meant to detail my personal journey from pro-choice/ambivalent to pro-life.

Like me ask this and I hope it is not unfair to ask - although I don't know in all honesty if you can truly answer it (I don't mean that a slight, I mean that I'm not sure it is a fair question that anyone could truly answer - somethings just can't be broken out and still remain intact).

If your personal journey that you underwent went exactly the same with the exception that you didn't leave your pro-choice stance - for example you might still personally oppose abortion but still recognize that it would be up to each female to control what is done to their own body - would you still consider yourself a better person then before you embarked on your journey?

I hope this question isn't too personal and it is not meant to be antigonistic, I'm just trying to get a handle on if you think you can ever reconcile you beliefs with one that allows choice for others and if you think that holding the belief that others can be pro-choice would for you make you feel you were not as good a person or not?

I personally tend to try to look at these types of belief systems as one where I could be wrong, think about what it would take to convince me to be wrong and look for that evidence as opposed to looking only for evidence that confirms my beliefs. For me this is a win-win approach, if I look to disprove my beliefs and find it hard to do that, I feel that it adds just a little more validation to them, and if I do succeed in shaking or disproving my beliefs I feel I've grown and gained new knowledge and insights. I wish that any of these so-called debate/discussion shows on TV where they usually end up yelling over each other started with asking each person - what would it take for them to drop their position and take up the other sides - it would be a better discussion - if they answer, 'Nothing I'm sure I'm right' - then why have a debate/discussion, because IMO, that person has shut himself off from the learning process.

---Jay

I don't know if I could answer that because I did leave my pro-choice views behind. My outlook on the abortion issue is just part of my growth.

I've heard President Bush say that abortion is an issue that good people disagree on. That's certainly the politically correct thing to say.

Let's put it this way: If I saw an relatively helpless old lady being beaten and mugged, would I do something to help her? Absolutely I would. It's the same way with abortion. I think that the wholesale killing of fetuses is wrong. Therefore, I am using my voting power to try to help them. It isn't much, but there it is. I have to follow my own convictions.

Now I have to question whether I am doing enough. I have never picketed an abortion clinic or tried to block a pregnant woman from entering such a place. In fact, I have generally looked down on people who have done that. But if I feel this strongly about the issue, should I be doing these things?

I know this didn't really answer your question. And I'm not even sure I made a point, other than the impossibility of answering the question.

[gotribego26]

My question is, why is this always a Caucasian discussion?

I have yet to hear an African or Asian discussion about abortion whether, they are American or not.

Gamblin' Bill Bennett (former education secretary, conservative radio host, and CNN pundit) said a couple of years ago that you could abort every Black fetus in America and the national crime rate would decrease. How's that for compassionate conservatism and morality?

I find that comment offensive. If Bill Bennett did make that comment, he does not speak for all conservatives.

There are economists and scoial scientists who predicted the reduction in crime in the 90's as a result of Roe v. Wade. The reduction came to pass.

Crime statistics over the last 50 years indicate a correlation between abortion rates and crime rates 20 years later. Note I use the term correlation not causation - but the statisitical relationship is pretty strong.

Read th book "Freakonomics for a more lucid in-depth discussion of the issue.

[SportsFan68]

Let's put it this way: If I saw an relatively helpless old lady being beaten and mugged, would I do something to help her? Absolutely I would. It's the same way with abortion. I think that the wholesale killing of fetuses is wrong. Therefore, I am using my voting power to try to help them. It isn't much, but there it is. I have to follow my own convictions.

Now I have to question whether I am doing enough. I have never picketed an abortion clinic or tried to block a pregnant woman from entering such a place. In fact, I have generally looked down on people who have done that. But if I feel this strongly about the issue, should I be doing these things?

Children are born all the time into families where they are beaten, underfed, uneducated, or even starved. Many FAS and crack babies were abused before they were born. Now that they are born, they're not going to come across your radar like the once-in-a-lifetime situation of seeing a helpless person be robbed -- they're easy to find, just ask any school or social worker. I'm guessing we agree that wholesale abuse to this particular class of children is wrong. I definitely question whether you are doing enough. At the very least, I believe you should be volunteering at a Boys and Girls Club or joining the StudyBuddy program at the closest school. If there isn't one, you should be starting one. Or you should be adopting an FAS or crack baby.

It's easy to vote with somebody who says her or his views align with yours regarding unborn children. Actually doing something about it after the children are born, that's hard. Feeling as strongly about it as you do, no, you're not doing enough.

[themanintheseersuckersuit]

As the Politico's Jonathan Martin reported, South Carolina Democratic chairwoman Carol Fowler said that John McCain had chosen a running mate "whose primary qualification seems to be that she hasn't had an abortion."

now the "apology"

I personally admire and respect the difficult choices that women make everyday, and I apologize to anyone who finds my comment offensive. I clumsily was making a point about people in South Carolina who may vote based on a single issue. Whether it's the environment, the economy, the war or a woman's right to choose, there are people who will cast their vote based on a single issue. That was the only point I was attempting to make.

[danielh41]

Let's put it this way: If I saw an relatively helpless old lady being beaten and mugged, would I do something to help her? Absolutely I would. It's the same way with abortion. I think that the wholesale killing of fetuses is wrong. Therefore, I am using my voting power to try to help them. It isn't much, but there it is. I have to follow my own convictions.

Now I have to question whether I am doing enough. I have never picketed an abortion clinic or tried to block a pregnant woman from entering such a place. In fact, I have generally looked down on people who have done that. But if I feel this strongly about the issue, should I be doing these things?

Children are born all the time into families where they are beaten, underfed, uneducated, or even starved. Many FAS and crack babies were abused before they were born. Now that they are born, they're not going to come across your radar like the once-in-a-lifetime situation of seeing a helpless person be robbed -- they're easy to find, just ask any school or social worker. I'm guessing we agree that wholesale abuse to this particular class of children is wrong. I definitely question whether you are doing enough. At the very least, I believe you should be volunteering at a Boys and Girls Club or joining the StudyBuddy program at the closest school. If there isn't one, you should be starting one. Or you should be adopting an FAS or crack baby.

It's easy to vote with somebody who says her or his views align with yours regarding unborn children. Actually doing something about it after the children are born, that's hard. Feeling as strongly about it as you do, no, you're not doing enough.

Why is it that any time a conservative talks about the abortion issue with a liberal, the liberal changes the subject to child abuse or capital punishment or even the tragedy of war?

As for working with children, I have already discussed my going for a teacher certification with my wife. I've told her that it would mean a pretty big expense for the training program, plus a cut in my pay when I'm done. But I just feel compelled to make a move in this direction.

[mrkelley23]

Let's put it this way: If I saw an relatively helpless old lady being beaten and mugged, would I do something to help her? Absolutely I would. It's the same way with abortion. I think that the wholesale killing of fetuses is wrong. Therefore, I am using my voting power to try to help them. It isn't much, but there it is. I have to follow my own convictions.

Now I have to question whether I am doing enough. I have never picketed an abortion clinic or tried to block a pregnant woman from entering such a place. In fact, I have generally looked down on people who have done that. But if I feel this strongly about the issue, should I be doing these things?

Children are born all the time into families where they are beaten, underfed, uneducated, or even starved. Many FAS and crack babies were abused before they were born. Now that they are born, they're not going to come across your radar like the once-in-a-lifetime situation of seeing a helpless person be robbed -- they're easy to find, just ask any school or social worker. I'm guessing we agree that wholesale abuse to this particular class of children is wrong. I definitely question whether you are doing enough. At the very least, I believe you should be volunteering at a Boys and Girls Club or joining the StudyBuddy program at the closest school. If there isn't one, you should be starting one. Or you should be adopting an FAS or crack baby.

It's easy to vote with somebody who says her or his views align with yours regarding unborn children. Actually doing something about it after the children are born, that's hard. Feeling as strongly about it as you do, no, you're not doing enough.

Why is it that any time a conservative talks about the abortion issue with a liberal, the liberal changes the subject to child abuse or capital punishment or even the tragedy of war?

As for working with children, I have already discussed my going for a teacher certification with my wife. I've told her that it would mean a pretty big expense for the training program, plus a cut in my pay when I'm done. But I just feel compelled to make a move in this direction.

Because the "conservatives" (not really, at least not in the original sense of the word in America) keep saying they're really talking about something called "pro-life" when what they're really talking about (by your own admission, in the above sentence) is abortion?

[Here's Fanny!]

Children are born all the time into families where they are beaten, underfed, uneducated, or even starved. Many FAS and crack babies were abused before they were born. Now that they are born, they're not going to come across your radar like the once-in-a-lifetime situation of seeing a helpless person be robbed -- they're easy to find, just ask any school or social worker. I'm guessing we agree that wholesale abuse to this particular class of children is wrong. I definitely question whether you are doing enough. At the very least, I believe you should be volunteering at a Boys and Girls Club or joining the StudyBuddy program at the closest school. If there isn't one, you should be starting one. Or you should be adopting an FAS or crack baby.

It's easy to vote with somebody who says her or his views align with yours regarding unborn children. Actually doing something about it after the children are born, that's hard. Feeling as strongly about it as you do, no, you're not doing enough.

Why is it that any time a conservative talks about the abortion issue with a liberal, the liberal changes the subject to child abuse or capital punishment or even the tragedy of war?

Because the conservatives like to congratulate each other, pat themselves on the back and then go home, kick back and leave the liberals to deal with the results of their self-righteousness?

Because, come to find out, their definition of "life" is pretty darned flexible after all?

(I'm only using labels 'conservative' and 'liberal' as those were the ones chosen by the questioner.)

[TheCalvinator24]

Children are born all the time into families where they are beaten, underfed, uneducated, or even starved. Many FAS and crack babies were abused before they were born. Now that they are born, they're not going to come across your radar like the once-in-a-lifetime situation of seeing a helpless person be robbed -- they're easy to find, just ask any school or social worker. I'm guessing we agree that wholesale abuse to this particular class of children is wrong. I definitely question whether you are doing enough. At the very least, I believe you should be volunteering at a Boys and Girls Club or joining the StudyBuddy program at the closest school. If there isn't one, you should be starting one. Or you should be adopting an FAS or crack baby.

It's easy to vote with somebody who says her or his views align with yours regarding unborn children. Actually doing something about it after the children are born, that's hard. Feeling as strongly about it as you do, no, you're not doing enough.

Why is it that any time a conservative talks about the abortion issue with a liberal, the liberal changes the subject to child abuse or capital punishment or even the tragedy of war?

Because the conservatives like to congratulate each other, pat themselves on the back and then go home, kick back and leave the liberals to deal with the results of their self-righteousness?

Male Bovine Feces

[KillerTomato]

Why is it that any time a conservative talks about the abortion issue with a liberal, the liberal changes the subject to child abuse or capital punishment or even the tragedy of war?

For the same reason some (but not all) people who are against gay marriage like to turn it around to a referendum on bestiality. The issue isn't as simple as "pro-choice vs. pro-life" or "gay marriage vs. not"...it's about seeing the consequences of your beliefs as they may be taken by people who see things only in black and white, with no shades of grey or gray.

I suppose you'd call me somewhat of a cafeteria Catholic. There are some even basic tenets of what we, as Catholics, are told to believe that I find very very very difficult to get my head around. I am against abortion, because I do personally believe that life begins at conception; but... I can at least understand the necessity for abortions in some cases. I think it's morally reprehensible to force a woman to carry to term a child that was conceived through force or incest. Yes, I know, there aren't many cases where this happens, but if it happens even once, how can you deny a woman an abortion when she was raped?

I also am an American, and right or wrong, we live in a country where abortion is legal. It is my right to work to see this stop, but it's not fair to make it a litmus test for the Presidency, since the President has many more responsibilities than just nominating judges to the Supreme Court. And the Court has many more responsibilities than just deciding this one topic.

My own take on contraception, OTOH, is directly in opposition to that of my Church. To me, one way to reduce the number of abortions is to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies in the first place.

And my beliefs regarding homosexuality are also not the Catholic party line (you should forgive the phrase, since I am aware that Catholicism isn't a "party"). I know too many gays and lesbians who I find more loving and caring than many heterosexual people I know. I know one gay couple who have been together 15 years, and are great parents, but they would not have the right to sit at each other's bedside if their partner was seriously ill. I have no idea how they can do what they do privately without throwing up, but that's just a matter of taste, IMO. And I know a HUGE number of heterosexual couples whose marriages fall apart after 6 months or a year, because they never should have gotten married in the first place. How you can withhold marriage and everything that goes with it from two people who love each other as much as my friends do, while allowing two people who DON'T love each other to tie the knot with just 2 days' notice is beyond me.

But some who are against gay marriage state (and maybe this is even a not-completely ridiculous notion) that where do you draw the line? If you allow two men to marry (or two women, lest you think I'm sexist!), then what would stop a man from marrying a cow? Or a corpse?

And pro-life advocates do the same: if you allow an abortion, and that's state-sanctioned killing (note, I'm not saying it is, just that this is one argument), then why isn't capital punishment, or war just as offensive to you?

The truth, I suspect, in almost every case, lies somewhere in the middle. I just think that it's very difficult to reach compromise when your belief system tends to see things solely in black and white absolutes.

[lilyvonschtupp26]

I preface my comments that I too never post to political threads, but feel compelled here because of personal experience.

I grew up near a family that was from eastern Europe. They were Jewish. My girlfriend was delighted when her little brother Jacob was born. I watched him develop into a smiling, toddling gibberish talking adorable youngster when things started going horribly wrong. Jacob started reversing his development due to Tay Sach's disease. He stopped talking, walking and moving until at his death he was curled back into the fetal position. It was the most painful experience I ever had to watch in the 4 month period b/4 Jacob's death. His family suffered incredibly. They barely survived the ordeal.

As a result when Amy married, she knew she was a carrier and had a 25% chance of conceiving a Taysach baby. she had a therapeutic abortion when she found out that her baby would die this horrible, painful death. Was it hard for her to do? Absolutely.

That's why there are matchmakers who specialize in DNA testing for Eastern European Jews so they are spared the pain of having to watch their child die in this manner.

To learn more about Tay Sach's, here's a link:

http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/tays ... ysachs.htm

Until you've walked in someone's shoes, I say the choice must remain with the woman.

[themanintheseersuckersuit]

I preface my comments that I too never post to political threads, but feel compelled here because of personal experience.

I grew up near a family that was from eastern Europe. They were Jewish. My girlfriend was delighted when her little brother Jacob was born. I watched him develop into a smiling, toddling gibberish talking adorable youngster when things started going horribly wrong. Jacob started reversing his development due to Tay Sach's disease. He stopped talking, walking and moving until at his death he was curled back into the fetal position. It was the most painful experience I ever had to watch in the 4 month period b/4 Jacob's death. His family suffered incredibly. They barely survived the ordeal.

As a result when Amy married, she knew she was a carrier and had a 25% chance of conceiving a Taysach baby. she had a therapeutic abortion when she found out that her baby would die this horrible, painful death. Was it hard for her to do? Absolutely.

That's why there are matchmakers who specialize in DNA testing for Eastern European Jews so they are spared the pain of having to watch their child die in this manner.

To learn more about Tay Sach's, here's a link:

http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/tays ... ysachs.htm

Until you've walked in someone's shoes, I say the choice must remain with the woman.

Lily, that's a very moving story and yet I have a hard time reconciling that with a system that won't prevent killing of a baby because its female, and a lot more babies are killed because they are female than because they have Taysachs. I don't have the answer, questions are much easier.

[Sir_Galahad]

I am a liberal and anti-abortion. I do not believe that the government should interfere.

I think if you would have stopped right there, we would have had a basis on which to agree on something.

[danielh41]

I also am an American, and right or wrong, we live in a country where abortion is legal. It is my right to work to see this stop, but it's not fair to make it a litmus test for the Presidency, since the President has many more responsibilities than just nominating judges to the Supreme Court. And the Court has many more responsibilities than just deciding this one topic.

I don't know if I have a litmus test for the Presidency. There are so many reasons why I oppose Barak Obama besides the abortion issue. But Obama's position on that issue, plus what I've read about the bill he killed in Illinois has just put that topic foremost on my mind. I also felt that the board needed a counterpoint to "The Definition of Pro-Choice" thread that SSS started, more for discussion purposes than anything else.

I have serious problems with what Obama will do with taxation, government spending, national defense, and court appointments. Not only that, I just plain don't trust his judgment in the most important and powerful position in the world.

[danielh41]

I preface my comments that I too never post to political threads, but feel compelled here because of personal experience.

I grew up near a family that was from eastern Europe. They were Jewish. My girlfriend was delighted when her little brother Jacob was born. I watched him develop into a smiling, toddling gibberish talking adorable youngster when things started going horribly wrong. Jacob started reversing his development due to Tay Sach's disease. He stopped talking, walking and moving until at his death he was curled back into the fetal position. It was the most painful experience I ever had to watch in the 4 month period b/4 Jacob's death. His family suffered incredibly. They barely survived the ordeal.

As a result when Amy married, she knew she was a carrier and had a 25% chance of conceiving a Taysach baby. she had a therapeutic abortion when she found out that her baby would die this horrible, painful death. Was it hard for her to do? Absolutely.

That's why there are matchmakers who specialize in DNA testing for Eastern European Jews so they are spared the pain of having to watch their child die in this manner.

To learn more about Tay Sach's, here's a link:

http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/tays ... ysachs.htm

Until you've walked in someone's shoes, I say the choice must remain with the woman.

That is much more complicated than the overwhelming majority of abortions in this country. I certainly don't pretend to have the answers to that. I don't think it is right to take it out of God's hands, but then I've never been faced with that situation either.

[danielh41]

I don't pretend to have all the answers regarding the abortion issue. If Roe V. Wade ever is overturned, I don't know how any laws restricting abortion should be worded. Who should be punished, the abortionist, the mother, or both? What should the legal penalty be? What exceptions should the law allow in regards to the health of the mother or the near certain death of the child because of natural abnormalities?

I just know that the overwhelming majority of abortions in the country are wrong and performed for the wrong reasons. The Roe V. Wade court decision was a national tragedy.

[mrkelley23]

I'm curious, since you speak with such certainty. From whence does your information on how many abortions are wrong and/or performed for the wrong reasons come? I freely admit my ignorance on this point. But it reminds me of the people who "knew" that the vast majority of welfare mothers were African-American "welfare queens," cranking out babies to increase the size of their monthly check.

Now that that bugaboo has been disproved, maybe we can address the issue of the wrongness or rightness of the vast majority of abortions, now that you have conceded that some of the stories may be a little more complicated than others.

[danielh41]

I'm curious, since you speak with such certainty. From whence does your information on how many abortions are wrong and/or performed for the wrong reasons come? I freely admit my ignorance on this point. But it reminds me of the people who "knew" that the vast majority of welfare mothers were African-American "welfare queens," cranking out babies to increase the size of their monthly check.

Now that that bugaboo has been disproved, maybe we can address the issue of the wrongness or rightness of the vast majority of abortions, now that you have conceded that some of the stories may be a little more complicated than others.

My belief is that all abortions are morally wrong. Yet I recognize that there are circumstances that I hope I would never have to consider. Could I stand firm to my convictions under such circumstances? I don't know.

I also recognize that there would be undesirable legal ramifications to outlawing all abortions without exception. I don't think I've ever spoken with "certainty" on the legal aspects of this. On the contrary, I stated that I don't know what the appropriate legal standard should be if Roe V. Wade was ever overturned.

And why does everyone keep bringing race into it? I never distinguished between white, black, or other in any of my other posts. We are all God's children.

I also contend that the Roe v. Wade decision was a national tragedy. The Supreme Court grossly overstepped its bounds. As Justice Byron White wrote in his dissent, "I find nothing in the language or history of the Constitution to support the Court's judgment. The Court simply fashions and announces a new constitutional right for pregnant mothers and, with scarcely any reason or authority for its action, invests that right with sufficient substance to override most existing state abortion statutes."

[BigDrawMan]

[quote="danielh41"]By now, everyone here who's read any of my political posts knows that the abortion issue is just one of the many issues on which I strongly disagree with Obama and the liberals.

But there was a time back in the late 80s when I would have classified myself as pro-choice. I've always felt that abortion in and of itself was wrong. I just didn't think it needed to be legislated. The less legislation the better, I thought. I read John Irving's "The Cider House Rules," and thought to myself that women would get abortions whether it was legal or not. Might as well let them go someplace where they had decent medical care during and after the procedure. Another rationalization was that the world was already overpopulated. Who needs more unwanted children in the world?

Thankfully, I grew into a better person.
----------

You must have been insufferable.
unlike now.


I realized that rationalizing wrong behavior like I had done in regards to the abortion issue was wrong. It was like stealing from an employer because you don't feel like they are paying you enough. It's still wrong.

Everyone on the pro-choice side talks about the rights of women controlling their own bodies. But what about that innocent life growing inside them? Nobody speaks for the child? A lot of liberals join PETA and are advocates for animal rights, yet they don't give that same regard to growing living human beings. Baby seals get more concern from liberals than unborn children. It doesn't make sense to me.
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BEING A REAL CONSERVATIVE, I AM AGAINST GOVERNMENT INTRuding in these life and death decisions.Or against people like yourself using the blunt force of government to force their ways on me.

You are a liberal in this regard.
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I will admit that past experiences help shape a person's views. My ex-wife and I went through seven years of infertility. We finally gave up on the idea of having children. About a year after that, we gave up on the marriage. So maybe that's why I view each and every child as a gift from God. I have two wonderful sons now, and I couldn't be prouder of them.

I think about all the lives lost from abortion before they even started. I think about all the women who live with the guilt of what they've done. I hear a lot of stories about women who regret getting an abortion. I never hear about any who regret not getting one. And even the woman in the Roe v. Wade case has become Pro-Life.
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the few women I know who I know had abortions regret:

a.having the abortion
b.not being able to care for a child, thereby necessitating the abortion.


so...

you agree that criminalizing abortion wont stop abortion.

women have abortions because:

a.baby daddy has r-u-n-n o-f-t.
b.they have no money
c.they are too young to care for the kid properly
d.are too ashamed to have baby and give it up for adoption.


so if you really want to stop abortions, why dont you start a group of like minded individuals who will pony up the cash to help these poor women care for their kid.And you can throw in free baby sitting while the woman is at work.
I bet you can get a lot of takers.

How much would you like to contribute?




I believe that abortion is the biggest scourge in our society. I do believe that it is murder. It is murder for convenience.

Obama and Biden's pro-choice stance makes it impossible for me to vote for them. Biden is especially reprehensible since he maintains that he follows the Catholic faith and yet can't stand by his own beliefs and convictions in regards to when life begins. And needless to say, I was extremely pleased by McCain's selection of Palin as his running mate.
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I think we need more people who graduated at the bottom of their class, and/or took 7 years to finish college running the country.