Pro-Life

[danielh41]

By now, everyone here who's read any of my political posts knows that the abortion issue is just one of the many issues on which I strongly disagree with Obama and the liberals.

But there was a time back in the late 80s when I would have classified myself as pro-choice. I've always felt that abortion in and of itself was wrong. I just didn't think it needed to be legislated. The less legislation the better, I thought. I read John Irving's "The Cider House Rules," and thought to myself that women would get abortions whether it was legal or not. Might as well let them go someplace where they had decent medical care during and after the procedure. Another rationalization was that the world was already overpopulated. Who needs more unwanted children in the world?

Thankfully, I grew into a better person. I realized that rationalizing wrong behavior like I had done in regards to the abortion issue was wrong. It was like stealing from an employer because you don't feel like they are paying you enough. It's still wrong.

Everyone on the pro-choice side talks about the rights of women controlling their own bodies. But what about that innocent life growing inside them? Nobody speaks for the child? A lot of liberals join PETA and are advocates for animal rights, yet they don't give that same regard to growing living human beings. Baby seals get more concern from liberals than unborn children. It doesn't make sense to me.

And then I thought about the actual act itself: yanking the baby out of the womb, cracking skull. Did they feel the pain of this? And what do they do with the bodies? Do they burn them or what? I guess the Nazis faced a similar dilemma with the remains the Jews they murdered.

I will admit that past experiences help shape a person's views. My ex-wife and I went through seven years of infertility. We finally gave up on the idea of having children. About a year after that, we gave up on the marriage. So maybe that's why I view each and every child as a gift from God. I have two wonderful sons now, and I couldn't be prouder of them.

I think about all the lives lost from abortion before they even started. I think about all the women who live with the guilt of what they've done. I hear a lot of stories about women who regret getting an abortion. I never hear about any who regret not getting one. And even the woman in the Roe v. Wade case has become Pro-Life.

I believe that abortion is the biggest scourge in our society. I do believe that it is murder. It is murder for convenience.

I don't pretend to know when a soul actually enters a body. God knows that. I am also painfully aware that not every fetilized egg can grow into a baby. But I believe that once that blastocyst attaches itself to the uterine wall and once that pregnancy test comes back positive, that the life and death of that child-to-be should only be left to God. Just as murder usurps God's authority over life and death, so to does abortion.

Obama and Biden's pro-choice stance makes it impossible for me to vote for them. Biden is especially reprehensible since he maintains that he follows the Catholic faith and yet can't stand by his own beliefs and convictions in regards to when life begins. And needless to say, I was extremely pleased by McCain's selection of Palin as his running mate.

Anyway, that's it for this gratuitous post....

[minimetoo26]

Thankfully, I grew into a better person.

Well, I guess I will never be a better person. I've had four children, one with neurological problems and one when I was in my 40's, and I never even had them test my alpha-fetal protein level, because I wasn't going to have the amnio or an abortion if the results weren't to my liking.

But I can't make those decisions for anyone else. I am lucky to have money and patience and the luxury of staying home with my kids. And I have lived among people with spotty employment and addiction problems and no bank accounts and who even had to sign their checks with an X because they couldn't even write their name, so I realize how lucky I truly am.

And I'll never be that "better person". But I'll never stop counting my blessings...

[Bob Juch]

I am a liberal and anti-abortion. I do not believe that the government should interfere in a difference of opinion that is based on religion however. People can't make the right choice if there is no choice.

[peacock2121]

If your post was really gratuitous (which I think it was not), then don't bother reading what I have to say. If it wasn't gratuitous and you wrote it with the intention, the hope, the wish to change someone's opinion on the abortion issue, I have some advice.

Don't say that you became a better person when you changed your position. It makes someone with a differing opinion think that you think they are a worse person than you are. It lessens the chance of them wanting to listen to you or read you, in this case.

Also, don't minimize what you had to say with a parting one liner.

[nitrah55]

Do you feel the same way about capital punishment?

[danielh41]

Thankfully, I grew into a better person.

Well, I guess I will never be a better person. I've had four children, one with neurological problems and one when I was in my 40's, and I never even had them test my alpha-fetal protein level, because I wasn't going to have the amnio or an abortion if the results weren't to my liking.

But I can't make those decisions for anyone else. I am lucky to have money and patience and the luxury of staying home with my kids. And I have lived among people with spotty employment and addiction problems and no bank accounts and who even had to sign their checks with an X because they couldn't even write their name, so I realize how lucky I truly am.

And I'll never be that "better person". But I'll never stop counting my blessings...

I was just stating the fact. I did become a better person. I grew out of the cynical, situtational ethics of my youth. I no longer used rationalizations like "I should steal from my employer because they don't pay me enough," "It's OK to shoplift from Wal-mart because they make too much money already," or "Abortion should be OK because there are already too many people in the world." And even more importantly, I am still trying to become a better person even today. It's called spiritual growth.

[danielh41]

If your post was really gratuitous (which I think it was not), then don't bother reading what I have to say. If it wasn't gratuitous and you wrote it with the intention, the hope, the wish to change someone's opinion on the abortion issue, I have some advice.

Don't say that you became a better person when you changed your position. It makes someone with a differing opinion think that you think they are a worse person than you are. It lessens the chance of them wanting to listen to you or read you, in this case.

Also, don't minimize what you had to say with a parting one liner.

I was being sarcastic. My other anti-abortion anti-Obama post was marked as gratuitous right out of the gate, so I thought I would beat mrkelley23 to the punch.

[NellyLunatic1980]

I just realized that I would look a lot more credible if I wasn't posting this under one of my Merry Man accounts.

Nitrah asked a great question. I'd like to ask a follow-up: "And what about war, which is also a form of abortion?" It's one thing to murder a terrorist, but it's another to murder somebody who isn't a terrorist, somebody who is completely not guilty of anything.

I've stated before that I am against abortion except in the most extreme cases (rape, incest, mother's health). I've been the father of three sons. I love all of them. I still love my firstborn, even though he's been dead for 3 years because he was shot by somebody who never should've never been allowed to have a gun in the first place. Hey, we could even go into the gun issue if we wanna discuss abortion.

And there are a host of other issues that we could connect to the abortion issue--healthcare, unemployment, poverty, hate crimes, etc. And don't even get me started on Hurricane Katrina.

But I guess I'll never be a good person or a good American either, according to conservatives.

[danielh41]

Another thing I forgot to mention is that I was born a little over 7 months after my parents were born. And at over nine and a half pounds, I can guarantee that I was not an early arrival. So, even though I was born before Roe V. Wade, I wonder where I would be if my mother had made the wrong choice. And where would my mother be?

[minimetoo26]

Thankfully, I grew into a better person.

Well, I guess I will never be a better person. I've had four children, one with neurological problems and one when I was in my 40's, and I never even had them test my alpha-fetal protein level, because I wasn't going to have the amnio or an abortion if the results weren't to my liking.

But I can't make those decisions for anyone else. I am lucky to have money and patience and the luxury of staying home with my kids. And I have lived among people with spotty employment and addiction problems and no bank accounts and who even had to sign their checks with an X because they couldn't even write their name, so I realize how lucky I truly am.

And I'll never be that "better person". But I'll never stop counting my blessings...

I was just stating the fact. I did become a better person. I grew out of the cynical, situtational ethics of my youth. I no longer used rationalizations like "I should steal from my employer because they don't pay me enough," "It's OK to shoplift from Wal-mart because they make too much money already," or "Abortion should be OK because there are already too many people in the world." And even more importantly, I am still trying to become a better person even today. It's called spiritual growth.

I'm the kind of person who tells cashiers who undercharge me to take my money. My kids' schools don't have Citizen of the Month, but Citizen of the Year, and my kids win the awards. But I will still never be your "better person" because I understand that others aren't me. And morality is not something you can legislate. "Spiritual growth" is a church ideal, not a political one. And my husband almost became a Catholic priest, so we're pretty clear on the doctrine here.

The shoplifting comparison is ludicrous, because that is clearly stated to be a crime, BTW.

[SportsFan68]

. . .

Everyone on the pro-choice side talks about the rights of women controlling their own bodies. But what about that innocent life growing inside them? Nobody speaks for the child? A lot of liberals join PETA and are advocates for animal rights, yet they don't give that same regard to growing living human beings. Baby seals get more concern from liberals than unborn children. It doesn't make sense to me.

. . .

I think about all the lives lost from abortion before they even started. I think about all the women who live with the guilt of what they've done. I hear a lot of stories about women who regret getting an abortion. I never hear about any who regret not getting one. And even the woman in the Roe v. Wade case has become Pro-Life.

This will be too short in reply to DanielH's thoughtful post. Yes, I know two women who regretted not having abortions, one who would have terminated all five pregnancies if she had known Deadbeat Dad was going to walk out on her. Actually, she would have used better family planning methods, but what the heck, it was so much fun making them, they were young and in love... Now he's going job to job to job in Phoenix and California, trying to dodge child support garnishments. The other one had one healthy child and three not so healthy and was also partnerless raising them. When the couple split, he tried for full custody of just the healthy child, but it didn't wash in the courts.

DanielH worries about unborn children, I'd like to see that same concern for the ones who are born. FAS babies have between one and three strikes against them when they're born -- how about DanielH and people who feel the same as he does adopting a couple of children of alcoholic mothers?

DanielH reminded me of the late 80s, when President Reagan ordered Surgeon General Koop to write on a report on people who had terminated pregnancies. IIRC, according to Koop's later remarks, Reagan wanted a report that showed abortion had ruined the women's lives with sorrow and guilt. Koop did not find that and refused to write a report saying he did. Since Roe V. Wade, I've met four women who terminated pregnancies in their teens, all living happy, full lives with grown children or with one or more children in the house. I fully agree with Obama's stance: We may not agree on abortion, but surely we can agree on reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies. That is what I look for, some thoughts on reducing unwanted pregnancies in any message such as DanielH's, but did not find it.

[Bob Juch]

Another thing I forgot to mention is that I was born a little over 7 months after my parents were born. And at over nine and a half pounds, I can guarantee that I was not an early arrival. So, even though I was born before Roe V. Wade, I wonder where I would be if my mother had made the wrong choice. And where would my mother be?

Now that's what I call a real early conception!

Your mother had a choice and she made the right one. I guess you're not happy she had a choice?

[danielh41]

Do you feel the same way about capital punishment?

They are two different issues. Abortion concerns the murder of innocent human beings. Capital punishement involves the state's right to remove criminals who are a threat to the innocent and to society.

[nitrah55]

Do you feel the same way about capital punishment?

They are two different issues. Abortion concerns the murder of innocent human beings. Capital punishement involves the state's right to remove criminals who are a threat to the innocent and to society.

Innocent human beings die as a result of capital punishment. And war, for that matter. Any problem with that?

[dimmzy]

I guess I'm reluctantly pro-choice, as are a lot of good people.

My question is, why is this always a Caucasian discussion?

I have yet to hear an African or Asian discussion about abortion whether, they are American or not.

My Asian sister-in-laws (both Asian, not Asian-American) say, "If you don't want an abortion, don't have one."

Besides, with technology, it's all going to be a moot point anyhow. You'll be able to get a pill. For that matter, you'll be able to save aborted babies too.

I bet there won't be much effort to save African babies.

There isn't now.

[SportsFan68]

I bet there won't be much effort to save African babies.

There isn't now.

Agreed. How about DanielH and those who feel the same all adopting African babies who would otherwise grow up in orphanages?

[NellyLunatic1980]

My question is, why is this always a Caucasian discussion?

I have yet to hear an African or Asian discussion about abortion whether, they are American or not.

Gamblin' Bill Bennett (former education secretary, conservative radio host, and CNN pundit) said a couple of years ago that you could abort every Black fetus in America and the national crime rate would decrease. How's that for compassionate conservatism and morality?

[frogman042]

I really, really, really don't like to get into political discussions on boreds/boards that I consider social/fun - but I do respect a lot of the opinions on the bored and I see that in general political opinions don't seem to have a negative bearing on other posts. I know how hard it is sometimes for people to seperate the two.

That said, I do want to make a few comments on this issue.

I think the core of the problem is a lack of a clear-cut definition. Specifically of when 'life' starts. As far as I can tell, life started either once or a few times more then 3 billion years ago (unless you think the starting point was 10,000 years ago - but I don't want to open that pandora's box). Ever since it as recombined and reproduced but I haven't seen any reliable data that it has 'restarted'. I don't think asking where life begins, as used in everyday discourse is even a scientific concept. There are many possible lines that can be drawn with pro and con arguments for all of them. To highlight one as the only true one and refuse to consider other points, is basically an opinion and one that I would hope the owner of such an opinion would be open to realize that maybe other positions are valid as well.

Should the line be drawn at conception or implantation? After a minimum set of of cells have formed, what about diferentiation? Organs forming, a heartbeat, brain activity or actual birth and seperation from the mother? Cloning is possible, any cell has the potential of being an independent human being - no different then a twin other then being born possibly years apart. If I skin my knee or scratched my head, have I committed murder? If not, why not? I am killing cells that have the potential to be another person, am I not?

As soon as a sperm and egg unite, is that a full person with full rights, at that instance. If a woman misses a period and has a particularly heavy menstral flow the following month, odds are that the body has rejected a fertilized egg - should an inquest be held? If it is true that a person is formed at fertalization then why not? It is estimated that a huge number of fertilized eggs never get pass the first month, why did God or Nature or whoever devise a system that would kill so many people?

It is interesting that in German the same word is used for both abortion and miscarrage - so there are both natural abortions and artificially induced arbotions - is there a moral difference? Shouldn't miscarriges be subject to possible manslaughter charges if it was found it could have been prevented with better prenatel care?

I don't think there is much argument that virtually everyone would like to see the number of artificial (and natural) abortions reduced to 0. But the very nature of the reproductive process at it currently stands leaves me to really believe it is up to the woman who is pregnant to be the ultimate arbitor of the decision - especially if it is not yet to the point of viability outside of the womb.

For those who disagree with that last statement of mine, do you think people who are perfect matches for either organ, bone marrow or blood donations be forced to donate those items if it can be shown it would save a life and by not doing it will cause someone else to die?

Just some thoughts to ponder - there is a sense I think that these issues are clear-cut and I think that is far from the truth.

---Jay

[Appa23]

I bet there won't be much effort to save African babies.

There isn't now.

Agreed. How about DanielH and those who feel the same all adopting African babies who would otherwise grow up in orphanages?

Dang, I picked the wrong continent. Do I get partial credit?

[trevor_macfee]

I can't believe I'm posting in a thread about abortion. But it's not really abortion I want to address, it's Daniel's comment about becoming a "better person." I feel compelled to respond because I know that during the many years of my adult life I was away from church or any kind of faith, my impression of Christians was that they all thought they were somehow superior to those of us on the outside.

It was one of the main things that kept me out of church.

It is also one of the things that I focus on in my ministry now. Now that I am, to no one's greater surprise than my own, a pastor.

In the process of becoming a Christian, I did change my views on a number of issues. That included some political issues, even though in many ways I am still somewhat of a "liberal" on many of them (this post isn't the place to go into the why's and wherefores - you'll have to read my book).

Those changes were not because I became a "better person." Quite the contrary - the more deeply I delve into the Scriptures, the more I pray, the more I grow in my faith in whatever way, the more I realize how short I fall of the person God created me to be. I believe that the more one surrenders to God, the more humility is engendered in that person.

I write this not to chastise Daniel in any way - I'm probably over-simplifying what he means. But I felt it important to say because I know we have folks with many faiths - and folks with no religious faith - on the Bored and I want to stand up for a brand of faith does not say that "We" are better and "You" are somehow lesser because you don't believe what I believe - about abortion or about anything else.

Not all Christians are like that - though you could get that idea (like I did when I was younger) from the loudest and most media-savvy of the "faithful." I do know that the only One who I believe ever had the right to say He was a "better person" was all about humility.

[starfish1113]

As somebody who has a very strong feeling about this topic and who at one time worked for somebody at the forefront of the issue, I have always been very reluctant to state my opinion for fear of being demonized/marginalized/castigated by friends and family who I know don't share my view.

This thread has restored my faith that people on both sides of this issue can talk about it in a way as not to inflame passions that make it impossible to rationally discuss it.

I hope it continues.

[kusch]

I can't believe I'm posting in a thread about abortion. But it's not really abortion I want to address, it's Daniel's comment about becoming a "better person." I feel compelled to respond because I know that during the many years of my adult life I was away from church or any kind of faith, my impression of Christians was that they all thought they were somehow superior to those of us on the outside.

It was one of the main things that kept me out of church.

It is also one of the things that I focus on in my ministry now. Now that I am, to no one's greater surprise than my own, a pastor.

In the process of becoming a Christian, I did change my views on a number of issues. That included some political issues, even though in many ways I am still somewhat of a "liberal" on many of them (this post isn't the place to go into the why's and wherefores - you'll have to read my book).

Those changes were not because I became a "better person." Quite the contrary - the more deeply I delve into the Scriptures, the more I pray, the more I grow in my faith in whatever way, the more I realize how short I fall of the person God created me to be. I believe that the more one surrenders to God, the more humility is engendered in that person.

I write this not to chastise Daniel in any way - I'm probably over-simplifying what he means. But I felt it important to say because I know we have folks with many faiths - and folks with no religious faith - on the Bored and I want to stand up for a brand of faith does not say that "We" are better and "You" are somehow lesser because you don't believe what I believe - about abortion or about anything else.

Not all Christians are like that - though you could get that idea (like I did when I was younger) from the loudest and most media-savvy of the "faithful." I do know that the only One who I believe ever had the right to say He was a "better person" was all about humility.

Here is my take about the "better person" comment that Daniel made. I certainly did not read it like Pea or others. He "feels" (to himself I assume) to be a better person. That is what I was thinking when I first read his post.Good for him. I sure like learning and growing so I can be a better person. Self esteem is what I think I am trying to say. He was in no way putting himself up and above anybody. I was kind of doing a "huh?" when Pea posted a reply. Oh, I can see where she was coming from, I just did not see that angle until she posted.

[dimmzy]

It is also one of the things that I focus on in my ministry now. Now that I am, to no one's greater surprise than my own, a pastor.

In the process of becoming a Christian, I did change my views on a number of issues. That included some political issues, even though in many ways I am still somewhat of a "liberal" on many of them (this post isn't the place to go into the why's and wherefores - you'll have to read my book).

Those changes were not because I became a "better person." Quite the contrary - the more deeply I delve into the Scriptures, the more I pray, the more I grow in my faith in whatever way, the more I realize how short I fall of the person God created me to be. I believe that the more one surrenders to God, the more humility is engendered in that person.

I love this.

Where is your church? And are you within a quick drive of Rochester, NY?

[danielh41]

I certainly never claimed to be a better person than anyone else. I only claimed that I was a becoming a better person than I was before. If anyone took that to mean that I claimed to be better person than someone who claimed to be pro-choice, then I apologize.

I only meant to detail my personal journey from pro-choice/ambivalent to pro-life.

[danielh41]

My question is, why is this always a Caucasian discussion?

I have yet to hear an African or Asian discussion about abortion whether, they are American or not.

Gamblin' Bill Bennett (former education secretary, conservative radio host, and CNN pundit) said a couple of years ago that you could abort every Black fetus in America and the national crime rate would decrease. How's that for compassionate conservatism and morality?

I find that comment offensive. If Bill Bennett did make that comment, he does not speak for all conservatives.