Another school shooting

[BackInTex]

This is a decision in which the cost-benefit analysis is very, very clear. --Bob

Only to those who place little or no value, not only on their own, but on others' freedom and liberty.

And also those who ignore the truths of human behavior.

[silverscreenselect]

And also those who ignore the truths of human behavior.

John Wayne and Dirty Harry movies, which seem to be your point of reference, do not portray the statistical truths of human behavior.

[ten96lt]

So that comes out to a .0254% death rate assuming 3,000,000 people have CCW permits. Where is the cost benefit in that when we have higher death rates in car accidents, alcohol, etc? You can argue (if it just saves one life...) but if you're going to bring in cost/benefit, what actuary is going to find that significant enough where extreme action has to be taken compared to other risky behavior? What about those who draw their gun but never fire a shot in self-defense. I don't see where the numbers support the urgent need for greater control.

[jarnon]

What's wrong with this headline?

Amish man sues to buy firearm without photo ID in gun rights, religious freedom lawsuit

[Spock]

I think I have posted this before-but it seems to fit the discussion here.

The NRA has a database of thousands of cases involving an armed citizen protecting themselves and others.

https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/armed-citizen/

[Spock]

It's also the college campus where someone decides to go on a shooting spree. How the hell am I supposed to protect myself and my family from those risks? --Bob

Campus carry.

Great, so some other armed vigilante can mistake me or my family for the actual shooter because I'm running with my gun out and take a potshot at me. Just like happened in Israel yesterday. --Bob

Not sure of what happened in Israel, but I find it interesting that you pick one case out in Israel and totally ignore the dozens(or whatever it is now) of stabbings with the perps often shot dead by Israelis.

Also, just an example of how these terrorists don't care what you believe-they just care who you are.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/94593cd9 ... lem-attack

>>An American educator who marched for civil rights in the 1960s and advocated coexistence between Muslims and Jews when he moved to Israel died Tuesday after succumbing to wounds sustained in a Palestinian attack on a bus in Jerusalem two weeks ago.<<<

[Spock]

This is a decision in which the cost-benefit analysis is very, very clear. --Bob

Only to those who place little or no value, not only on their own, but on others' freedom and liberty.

And also those who ignore the truths of human behavior.

The Austrians are calling your "Cost-Benefit" analysis and raising you 70,000 shotguns as the country is being swamped by migrants.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... claim.html

'Virtually all shotguns are currently sold out, because you need no permit for them', said Thomas Ortner, spokesman for an arms dealer in Upper Austria."

[Bob78164]

This is a decision in which the cost-benefit analysis is very, very clear. --Bob

Only to those who place little or no value, not only on their own, but on others' freedom and liberty.

And also those who ignore the truths of human behavior.

The Austrians are calling your "Cost-Benefit" analysis and raising you 70,000 shotguns as the country is being swamped by migrants.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... claim.html

'Virtually all shotguns are currently sold out, because you need no permit for them', said Thomas Ortner, spokesman for an arms dealer in Upper Austria."

I suspect I'm on safe ground predicting that firearm deaths in Austria are about to increase sharply over the next couple of years. In the meantime, according to the story, the rush to purchase shotguns is being driven by an inchoate fear of refugees, as opposed to any actual evidence that life in Austria has suddenly become more dangerous to unarmed citizens. --Bob

[BackInTex]

In the meantime, according to the story, the rush to purchase shotguns is being driven by an inchoate fear of refugees, as opposed to any actual evidence that life in Austria has suddenly become more dangerous to unarmed citizens. --Bob

And also those who ignore the truths of human behavior.

[earendel]

Not sure of what happened in Israel, but I find it interesting that you pick one case out in Israel and totally ignore the dozens(or whatever it is now) of stabbings with the perps often shot dead by Israelis.

Also, just an example of how these terrorists don't care what you believe-they just care who you are.

NPR ran a story on Monday (IIRC) that said knives in Israel are heavily regulated - you have to fill out a lot of paperwork in order to get a knife and culinary school students have taken to posting photos of themselves with their knife sets on Facebook and other social media to prove that they have a right to have the knives.

[silverscreenselect]

I suspect I'm on safe ground predicting that firearm deaths in Austria are about to increase sharply over the next couple of years. In the meantime, according to the story, the rush to purchase shotguns is being driven by an inchoate fear of refugees, as opposed to any actual evidence that life in Austria has suddenly become more dangerous to unarmed citizens. --Bob

Actually, the same thing happened in this country at the end of the Civil War. The Colt Company prospered due to government contracts, but when the war ended the demand for their product dried up. So, they subsidized the magazine articles by the likes of Ned Buntline about how dangerous conditions were on the frontier (actually the "Wild" west was safer than many eastern cities) and wound up creating a market for their weapons that soon became self-sustaining.

[silverscreenselect]

The NRA has a database of thousands of cases involving an armed citizen protecting themselves and others.

I'm not sure who this armed citizen was protecting himself against.

http://www.11alive.com/story/news/local ... /74717706/

[Spock]

And also those who ignore the truths of human behavior.

John Wayne and Dirty Harry movies, which seem to be your point of reference, do not portray the statistical truths of human behavior.

I am wondering how much contact you have in real life with "Concealed Carry" holders-Not much, I suspect and you project the only frame of reference (movies) that you have on to them.

We both know Flybrick and he makes no secret of the fact that he carries. Do you think he sees himself as a Dirty Harry type?

I do know this-If I am somewhere and the shit goes down-I would rather have Flybrick there than you.

[Spock]

"

I suspect I'm on safe ground predicting that firearm deaths in Austria are about to increase sharply over the next couple of years. In the meantime, according to the story, the rush to purchase shotguns is being driven by an inchoate fear of refugees, as opposed to any actual evidence that life in Austria has suddenly become more dangerous to unarmed citizens. --Bob[/quote]

Given your superior knowledge of how safe the migrants are-I guess you have been analyzing all the reports of stabbings and other criminal behaviors by the migrants and comparing that to the normal Austrian (and European crime rates) to show that their is no grounding to their fears-It would be cool if you would share that information with the Austrians to prove that they should not be scared.

I guess you would also make the argument that these migrants immediately leave their pathologies behind when they enter Europe and would never commit an honor killing there.
But, Oops, it appears that they do.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... mailonline

Obviously, you are familiar with the long lists of honor killings in the west and you would agree with me that the mainstream media hides that issue with every effort they can.
But of course, we all know that the immigrants that came through in Ellis Island times(prior to the welfare state) commonly killed their daughters if they were raped or otherwise dishonored by a man.

Coming from the Middle East rape culture-the migrants would never rape a western woman. Oops, it turns out they might.

One of my favorite funny stories of all time-(It cheers me up on dark days) is the rape of the open borders advocate who was working in a migrant camp and was raped by a group of African migrants and then asked to keep quiet so she didn't hurt the cause.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=690_1444130828

>>>>A young woman and ‘No Borders’ activist working in a migrant camp on the France-Italy border remained silent about her gang rape by Sudanese migrants for over a month because “the others asked me to keep quiet.”

Colleagues allegedly said that reporting the crime would set back their struggle for a borderless world.<<<<

There haven't been this many young Muslim men in Europe since the Battle of Tours times when Charles Martel drove them back. Thank God, the Europeans were a little more culturally confident then than they are now or none of this that we have now exists.

[Bob Juch]

And also those who ignore the truths of human behavior.

John Wayne and Dirty Harry movies, which seem to be your point of reference, do not portray the statistical truths of human behavior.

I am wondering how much contact you have in real life with "Concealed Carry" holders-Not much, I suspect and you project the only frame of reference (movies) that you have on to them.

We both know Flybrick and he makes no secret of the fact that he carries. Do you think he sees himself as a Dirty Harry type?

I do know this-If I am somewhere and the shit goes down-I would rather have Flybrick there than you.

He probably has had much more contact with concealed carry holders than he realizes. The first rule of concealed carry is you don't talk about concealed carry.

[silverscreenselect]

I do know this-If I am somewhere and the shit goes down-I would rather have Flybrick there than you.

And I would much rather that the shit not go down in the first place. Because when the shit goes down, that's when people get hurt. Bad guys with guns. Good guys with guns. Innocent bystanders. And there's a number of people carrying guns out there who could wind up doing things that make the likelihood of the shit going down much greater.

All I know is that the one time in my life that there was a realistic possibility of the shit going down, I didn't have a gun and I wasn't tempted to try to use it. And I survived minus sixty dollars.

I don't know what someone whose avatar is John Wayne might do under similar circumstances. Maybe he'd reach the same conclusion I did. Maybe he would be quicker and steadier with a weapon than the two antsy young guys who confronted me and they'd either run, give up, or go down. And maybe he wouldn't. And if the bullets start flying, I wouldn't want to be anywhere around.

[silverscreenselect]

I'm not going to look up every state, but I did look up Georgia law on concealed carry. Georgia does not have a concealed carry license per se. Instead, anyone wanting to carry a gun outside of their home, car, or place of business must have a Weapons License. To obtain a license, a person must be over 21 (or 18 with military experience) and pass fingerprint based background checks. The county probate judge issues the license and also has the right to check mental health, drug, and alcohol treatment state records.

So essentially any adult without a record (and even some with records) can carry a concealed handgun in Georgia. That certainly makes me feel much better.

[Spock]

>>>I suspect I'm on safe ground predicting that firearm deaths in Austria are about to increase sharply over the next couple of years. In the meantime, according to the story, the rush to purchase shotguns is being driven by an inchoate fear of refugees, as opposed to any actual evidence that life in Austria has suddenly become more dangerous to unarmed citizens. --Bob<<<

Way to hit the nail on the head, Bob and prioritize risks. Maybe one of the most unfortunate and ill-timed predictions on this Bored. Those xenophobic Austrians who will only shoot themselves and their inchoate fear of the refugees sure hit the world news this week. Because, well you know, nobody could have ever predicted that terrorists might be hiding in the refugee stream.

Thank God that nobody in that theater had a gun, or there might have been a massacre.

[Bob78164]

>>>I suspect I'm on safe ground predicting that firearm deaths in Austria are about to increase sharply over the next couple of years. In the meantime, according to the story, the rush to purchase shotguns is being driven by an inchoate fear of refugees, as opposed to any actual evidence that life in Austria has suddenly become more dangerous to unarmed citizens. --Bob<<<

Way to hit the nail on the head, Bob and prioritize risks. Maybe one of the most unfortunate and ill-timed predictions on this Bored. Those xenophobic Austrians who will only shoot themselves and their inchoate fear of the refugees sure hit the world news this week. Because, well you know, nobody could have ever predicted that terrorists might be hiding in the refugee stream.

Thank God that nobody in that theater had a gun, or there might have been a massacre.

As I understand it, the terrorists were armed with military-grade weaponry. Do you really think a couple of handguns would have made a difference? And I've seen one story speculating that one of the terrorists came in through Greece with the refugee stream. I believe at least one of them has been positively identified as a French citizen.

On the other hand, the United States is an object lesson in the consequences of relatively unrestricted access to firearms. But at least we've enjoyed the benefit of never having had a successful terrorist attack on our soil. Nor have we ever suffered a successful mass shooting. --Bob

[ten96lt]

>>>I suspect I'm on safe ground predicting that firearm deaths in Austria are about to increase sharply over the next couple of years. In the meantime, according to the story, the rush to purchase shotguns is being driven by an inchoate fear of refugees, as opposed to any actual evidence that life in Austria has suddenly become more dangerous to unarmed citizens. --Bob<<<

Way to hit the nail on the head, Bob and prioritize risks. Maybe one of the most unfortunate and ill-timed predictions on this Bored. Those xenophobic Austrians who will only shoot themselves and their inchoate fear of the refugees sure hit the world news this week. Because, well you know, nobody could have ever predicted that terrorists might be hiding in the refugee stream.

Thank God that nobody in that theater had a gun, or there might have been a massacre.

As I understand it, the terrorists were armed with military-grade weaponry. Do you really think a couple of handguns would have made a difference? And I've seen one story speculating that one of the terrorists came in through Greece with the refugee stream. I believe at least one of them has been positively identified as a French citizen.

On the other hand, the United States is an object lesson in the consequences of relatively unrestricted access to firearms. But at least we've enjoyed the benefit of never having had a successful terrorist attack on our soil. Nor have we ever suffered a successful mass shooting. --Bob

Bob, what's a military grade weapon? What difference does their weapon make if all you need to do is shoot them with yours? Do these guns have a magic force field that prevent them from being shot because they're "military grade"?

[Bob78164]

>>>I suspect I'm on safe ground predicting that firearm deaths in Austria are about to increase sharply over the next couple of years. In the meantime, according to the story, the rush to purchase shotguns is being driven by an inchoate fear of refugees, as opposed to any actual evidence that life in Austria has suddenly become more dangerous to unarmed citizens. --Bob<<<

Way to hit the nail on the head, Bob and prioritize risks. Maybe one of the most unfortunate and ill-timed predictions on this Bored. Those xenophobic Austrians who will only shoot themselves and their inchoate fear of the refugees sure hit the world news this week. Because, well you know, nobody could have ever predicted that terrorists might be hiding in the refugee stream.

Thank God that nobody in that theater had a gun, or there might have been a massacre.

As I understand it, the terrorists were armed with military-grade weaponry. Do you really think a couple of handguns would have made a difference? And I've seen one story speculating that one of the terrorists came in through Greece with the refugee stream. I believe at least one of them has been positively identified as a French citizen.

On the other hand, the United States is an object lesson in the consequences of relatively unrestricted access to firearms. But at least we've enjoyed the benefit of never having had a successful terrorist attack on our soil. Nor have we ever suffered a successful mass shooting. --Bob

Bob, what's a military grade weapon? What difference does their weapon make if all you need to do is shoot them with yours? Do these guns have a magic force field that prevent them from being shot because they're "military grade"?

The difference is range and ability to fire frequently. Would you feel like you had an even chance if you had a handgun and the people trying to kill you had a fully automatic weapon with longer range than yours? --Bob

[ten96lt]

As I understand it, the terrorists were armed with military-grade weaponry. Do you really think a couple of handguns would have made a difference? And I've seen one story speculating that one of the terrorists came in through Greece with the refugee stream. I believe at least one of them has been positively identified as a French citizen.

On the other hand, the United States is an object lesson in the consequences of relatively unrestricted access to firearms. But at least we've enjoyed the benefit of never having had a successful terrorist attack on our soil. Nor have we ever suffered a successful mass shooting. --Bob

Bob, what's a military grade weapon? What difference does their weapon make if all you need to do is shoot them with yours? Do these guns have a magic force field that prevent them from being shot because they're "military grade"?

The difference is range and ability to fire frequently. Would you feel like you had an even chance if you had a handgun and the people trying to kill you had a fully automatic weapon with longer range than yours? --Bob

So how does the Kalashnikov that they have differ than an AR-15 and other AK-47's that the public can get? Even if at full auto, while they can fire off multiple rounds, they lack in accuracy and you have to constantly reload.

If they were 50-100 feet from me? I doubt I'd be able to hit them without steady aim. Less than that, I'd have more confidence. What if there was a CCW holder who was a veteran? I think they'd have a good shot. I also think firing at them would at least distract them to respond to who's firing at them which would distract them enough to allow more people to escape. The object is if you don't hit them is to buy time. Ideal is to fire at them while they're reloading. If they're too busy shooting back at a CCW holder who's firing at them, that's time they're not shooting at someone trying to escape.

[silverscreenselect]

What if there was a CCW holder who was a veteran? I think they'd have a good shot. I also think firing at them would at least distract them to respond to who's firing at them which would distract them enough to allow more people to escape. The object is if you don't hit them is to buy time. Ideal is to fire at them while they're reloading. If they're too busy shooting back at a CCW holder who's firing at them, that's time they're not shooting at someone trying to escape.

Let me think. Which is more likely?

1) I'm in a crowded theater listening to a concert. A group of well armed would-be suicidal terrorists seize control of the theater and start randomly shootling everyone they can. However, a couple of combat trained veterans start returning fire and allow me and many others to escape.

2). I'm in a crowded theater listening to a concert. A couple of drunken idiots who somehow managed to get concealed carry permits get in an argument about whether the group that's playing is actually better than some other musical group. One of the idiots can't take to other guy's insulting him, his girl friend, and his favorite musical group and pulls out his gun. The other idiot pulls his out as well and they start shooting in that same crowded theater.

The Paris attacks are fortunately extremely rare and the lesson to learned is actually that better preventive measures save lives, since the bomber at the soccer stadium didn't get inside, where there could easily have been another major loss of life. Putting lots more armed people, who somehow rarely seem to be the well trained, calm, well prepared defenders of justice that the NRA crowd describes, with the idea that they might somehow stop one of these attacks merely invites far more of the less sensational, far less publicized events similar to scenario 2 above.

[Estonut]

Let me think. Which is more likely?

1) I'm in a crowded theater listening to a concert. A group of well armed would-be suicidal terrorists seize control of the theater and start randomly shootling everyone they can. However, a couple of combat trained veterans start returning fire and allow me and many others to escape.

2). I'm in a crowded theater listening to a concert. A couple of drunken idiots who somehow managed to get concealed carry permits get in an argument about whether the group that's playing is actually better than some other musical group. One of the idiots can't take to other guy's insulting him, his girl friend, and his favorite musical group and pulls out his gun. The other idiot pulls his out as well and they start shooting in that same crowded theater.

How many concerts have been performed in recorded history? 10 million, 100 million - a billion? Scenario 1 has happened once and scenario 2 has happened zero times. A situation happens .0000001 % of the time and you bring this up as an argument? Give me a break.

[silverscreenselect]

How many concerts have been performed in recorded history? 10 million, 100 million - a billion? Scenario 1 has happened once and scenario 2 has happened zero times. A situation happens .0000001 % of the time and you bring this up as an argument? Give me a break.

Here's one time it happened. Of course, incidents like this don't usually make the national news unless celebrities are involved somehow:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/crime/s ... -1.2313829

I know about this one because it made the local news and occurred at the art theater Mrs. SSS and I often attend:

http://www.ajc.com/news/news/local/2-pe ... ter/njZYQ/

The point is that the pro-gun crowd always chooses to concentrate on these spectacular tragedies with their ideas about how the right "good guy with a gun" could have stopped them, while ignoring how many more mundane shootings will occur by adding lots more people with lots more guns into theaters and similar venues.