TV news is dropping the ball on Trump

[Bob78164]

We're not talking about opinions. We're talking about facts. Either President Obama apologized or he didn't. Romney (and others) said he did. The transcript proves that he didn't.

When someone goes to another country and tells them we've dictated to them in the past, and we've "shown arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive" to them in the past, when he tells another country that with him as President, America will "be willing to acknowledge past errors where those errors have been made...", I would classify that as apologizing to those countries for the bad people who have run the country before we finally had the sense to elect him. Not only apologizing, but insulting to previous administrations.

But that is my opinion and that of many others. You may not agree with that opinion, and that is your right. But what you state is not proof, Bob, it is your differing opinion. Perhaps as a lawyer, you can try and understand the difference. For Politifact and CNN to decide unilaterally that someone's opinion is a lie is not only invalid, it brings their motives into question.

Words matter. What Romney really didn't like was the President of the United States acknowledging that the United States hasn't always acted perfectly. But he'd have looked like an asshole if he'd said that, so he mischaracterized what actually happened as an "apology tour" and then proceeded to knock down the straw man he'd erected.

Saying we haven't always been perfect isn't an apology. And if what you want is a government that never acknowledges error, that's what you should say. --Bob

[flockofseagulls104]

We're not talking about opinions. We're talking about facts. Either President Obama apologized or he didn't. Romney (and others) said he did. The transcript proves that he didn't.

When someone goes to another country and tells them we've dictated to them in the past, and we've "shown arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive" to them in the past, when he tells another country that with him as President, America will "be willing to acknowledge past errors where those errors have been made...", I would classify that as apologizing to those countries for the bad people who have run the country before we finally had the sense to elect him. Not only apologizing, but insulting to previous administrations.

But that is my opinion and that of many others. You may not agree with that opinion, and that is your right. But what you state is not proof, Bob, it is your differing opinion. Perhaps as a lawyer, you can try and understand the difference. For Politifact and CNN to decide unilaterally that someone's opinion is a lie is not only invalid, it brings their motives into question.

Words matter. What Romney really didn't like was the President of the United States acknowledging that the United States hasn't always acted perfectly. But he'd have looked like an asshole if he'd said that, so he mischaracterized what actually happened as an "apology tour" and then proceeded to knock down the straw man he'd erected.

Saying we haven't always been perfect isn't an apology. And if what you want is a government that never acknowledges error, that's what you should say. --Bob

Still your opinion, not proof. There is no reason why the subject of the past needed to come up at all, other than that is Obama's mindset. He knows better than anyone else that came before him.

[silverscreenselect]

No matter who wins I'm probably moving to Belize.

Legally or illegally?

That reminds me of an interesting anecdote. On our first trip to Belize, when Mrs. SSS and I were made honorary citizens, we went to the Mayan ruins and on the way passed a checkpoint where all vehicles were stopped in either direction. There was an armored personnel carrier parked about 10 yards from the checkpoint and a couple of armed soldiers standing around. Needless to say, Mrs. SSS and I were somewhat unnerved.

I asked our guide why the troops were there and he said that it was to prevent smugglers from Mexico bringing in lower cost merchandise that hadn't paid the various taxes, and for the most part it was ordinary household goods.

[silverscreenselect]

Still your opinion, not proof.

It's a fact that Obama never said "I'm sorry" or "I apologize."

As for the real meaning of what he said, it's not just your opinion vs. mine and Bob's. It's your opinion vs. mine and Bob's as supported by the diplomatic experts that Politifact consulted before writing the article, and that's the closest thing you're going to come to proof.

Except in the right wing universe where statistics and expert opinions don't matter if they don't conform to what you already believe.

[flockofseagulls104]

Still your opinion, not proof.

It's a fact that Obama never said "I'm sorry" or "I apologize."

As for the real meaning of what he said, it's not just your opinion vs. mine and Bob's. It's your opinion vs. mine and Bob's as supported by the diplomatic experts that Politifact consulted before writing the article, and that's the closest thing you're going to come to proof.

Except in the right wing universe where statistics and expert opinions don't matter if they don't conform to what you already believe.

You people on the left have a difficult time with metaphors and semantics, don't you. You resort to being literal when something requires a bit of thought to understand, and you have an expansive, almost mystical imagination when you need to support something that is completely illogical.

Let me spell it out for you just one more time. Obama went to other countries and told them that America made bad decisions and was not fair to them in the past, but it's not his fault, and he will be better from now on. English is my mother tongue, and reading from his speeches, that is my interpretation of his words. I am speculating, but I believe Mitt Romney and Ted Cruz may have come to the same interpretation of his words. If Cruz or Romney want to call that being apologetic, that is their OPINION, and OPINIONS cannot be lies. That is what they BELIEVE. They can be categorized as being correct or incorrect, depending on your point of view, but they are not facts, and cannot be labeled as lies. And the FACT that both Politifact and CNN have labeled that stated opinion as a 'Lie', indicates their point of view.

That's my honest opinion, based on what I've seen, what I remember and what I believe. Am I lying to you?

Me, I'd call it what Obama did colossal arrogance. Am I lying to you?

Now, for contrast, let me give you an indisputable example of what a LIE is.

Many years ago, Hillary's husband gave a speech on National Television in which he stated that he never had sexual relations with that woman, Monica Lewinski.
Later, a blue dress was found with his sexual traces on it, and he had to admit that he did, indeed, have sexual relations with that woman, Monica Lewinski.
The act of him declaring as a fact something he knew was false is what is known as a LIE. It wasn't his opinion. He was declaring it as a FACT, and that fact was false, and he knew it. Unless, of course, he was mentally impaired and decided to use that as a defense, which he didn't.

Can you comprehend the difference?

Now, as a sidebar, if you and Bob want to claim that Hillary herself is basically an honest person, if you include the mentally impaired defense with your argument, I will give you the point.

[Bob Juch]

No matter who wins I'm probably moving to Belize.

Legally or illegally?

Legally, but if Trump wins there may be a long line.

[flockofseagulls104]

No matter who wins I'm probably moving to Belize.

Legally or illegally?

Legally, but if Trump wins there may be a long line.

Why bother going through the legal hoops? Just go there. You might get preferred status for government services, if they are like us down there.

[Bob78164]

We're not talking about opinions. We're talking about facts. Either President Obama apologized or he didn't. Romney (and others) said he did. The transcript proves that he didn't.

When someone goes to another country and tells them we've dictated to them in the past, and we've "shown arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive" to them in the past, when he tells another country that with him as President, America will "be willing to acknowledge past errors where those errors have been made...", I would classify that as apologizing to those countries for the bad people who have run the country before we finally had the sense to elect him. Not only apologizing, but insulting to previous administrations.

Neither of those statements is in the Cairo speech. Do you have to resort to made-up facts to defend your position? --Bob

[flockofseagulls104]

We're not talking about opinions. We're talking about facts. Either President Obama apologized or he didn't. Romney (and others) said he did. The transcript proves that he didn't.

When someone goes to another country and tells them we've dictated to them in the past, and we've "shown arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive" to them in the past, when he tells another country that with him as President, America will "be willing to acknowledge past errors where those errors have been made...", I would classify that as apologizing to those countries for the bad people who have run the country before we finally had the sense to elect him. Not only apologizing, but insulting to previous administrations.

Neither of those statements is in the Cairo speech. Do you have to resort to made-up facts to defend your position? --Bob

Who is restricting anything to a Cairo speech? When you are trying a case, do you do any research, or just rely on what you think you know, and look down your nose at those that present evidence you did not consider?

That he spoke these words is a fact. What is opinion is how I interpret them. Many people interpret them as I do. Are we all lying? (See above for definition of difference between opinions and lies)

Speech by President Obama, Rhenus Sports Arena, Strasbourg, France, April 3, 2009.

So we must be honest with ourselves. In recent years we've allowed our Alliance to drift. I know that there have been honest disagreements over policy, but we also know that there's something more that has crept into our relationship. In America, there's a failure to appreciate Europe's leading role in the world. Instead of celebrating your dynamic union and seeking to partner with you to meet common challenges, there have been times where America has shown arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive.

President Obama, address to the Summit of the Americas opening ceremony, Hyatt Regency, Port of Spain, Trinidad and Tobago, April 17, 2009.

While the United States has done much to promote peace and prosperity in the hemisphere, we have at times been disengaged, and at times we sought to dictate our terms. But I pledge to you that we seek an equal partnership. There is no senior partner and junior partner in our relations; there is simply engagement based on mutual respect and common interests and shared values. So I'm here to launch a new chapter of engagement that will be sustained throughout my administration.
The United States will be willing to acknowledge past errors where those errors have been made.

Obama made a series of these speeches, pointing out that in the past we made mistakes, and that he is now going to correct them. That is why it was termed the Apology Tour.

[silverscreenselect]

Let me spell it out for you just one more time. Obama went to other countries and told them that America made bad decisions and was not fair to them in the past, but it's not his fault, and he will be better from now on. English is my mother tongue, and reading from his speeches, that is my interpretation of his words. I am speculating, but I believe Mitt Romney and Ted Cruz may have come to the same interpretation of his words. If Cruz or Romney want to call that being apologetic, that is their OPINION, and OPINIONS cannot be lies. That is what they BELIEVE. They can be categorized as being correct or incorrect, depending on your point of view, but they are not facts, and cannot be labeled as lies. And the FACT that both Politifact and CNN have labeled that stated opinion as a 'Lie', indicates their point of view.

Mitt Romney and Ted Cruz might also state that smoking doesn't cause cancer and they might sincerely believe that but that doesn't make them correct. They (and you) choose to ignore what is accepted diplomatic protocol the world over as discussed by the experts that Politifact consulted. Politifact doesn't distinguish between whether people actually believe the statements they say or not. They merely rate how true or not the statement is. Here are their definitions:

We then decide which of our six rulings should apply:

True – The statement is accurate and there’s nothing significant missing.

Mostly True – The statement is accurate but needs clarification or additional information.

Half True – The statement is partially accurate but leaves out important details or takes things out of context.

Mostly False – The statement contains some element of truth but ignores critical facts that would give a different impression.

False – The statement is not accurate.

Pants on Fire – The statement is not accurate and makes a ridiculous claim.

The claim about the apology tour is similar to Donald Trump's claim that Ted Cruz's father was with Lee Harvey Oswald before the assassination. There's no way to absolutely refute that statement, other than Cruz's father's denial which might conceivably be self-serving, Politifact's analysis of that claim:

But technical experts told PolitiFact that no such firm conclusion is possible given the quality of the photograph, and several historians of the period told us they’ve never seen Cruz’s name come up in connection with Oswald... The sole "evidence" for this claim is a grainy photograph that shows Oswald with a man who may bear a resemblance to Cruz. But experts tell PolitiFact that the image is too degraded to offer much confidence. At the same time, multiple experts about the world of early 1960s pro-Castro advocacy said they have never seen evidence of Cruz associating with Oswald and consider Trump’s claim implausible at best and ridiculous at worst.

[flockofseagulls104]

Let me spell it out for you just one more time. Obama went to other countries and told them that America made bad decisions and was not fair to them in the past, but it's not his fault, and he will be better from now on. English is my mother tongue, and reading from his speeches, that is my interpretation of his words. I am speculating, but I believe Mitt Romney and Ted Cruz may have come to the same interpretation of his words. If Cruz or Romney want to call that being apologetic, that is their OPINION, and OPINIONS cannot be lies. That is what they BELIEVE. They can be categorized as being correct or incorrect, depending on your point of view, but they are not facts, and cannot be labeled as lies. And the FACT that both Politifact and CNN have labeled that stated opinion as a 'Lie', indicates their point of view.

Mitt Romney and Ted Cruz might also state that smoking doesn't cause cancer and they might sincerely believe that but that doesn't make them correct. They (and you) choose to ignore what is accepted diplomatic protocol the world over as discussed by the experts that Politifact consulted. Politifact doesn't distinguish between whether people actually believe the statements they say or not. They merely rate how true or not the statement is. Here are their definitions:

We then decide which of our six rulings should apply:

True – The statement is accurate and there’s nothing significant missing.

Mostly True – The statement is accurate but needs clarification or additional information.

Half True – The statement is partially accurate but leaves out important details or takes things out of context.

Mostly False – The statement contains some element of truth but ignores critical facts that would give a different impression.

False – The statement is not accurate.

Pants on Fire – The statement is not accurate and makes a ridiculous claim.

The claim about the apology tour is similar to Donald Trump's claim that Ted Cruz's father was with Lee Harvey Oswald before the assassination. There's no way to absolutely refute that statement, other than Cruz's father's denial which might conceivably be self-serving, Politifact's analysis of that claim:

But technical experts told PolitiFact that no such firm conclusion is possible given the quality of the photograph, and several historians of the period told us they’ve never seen Cruz’s name come up in connection with Oswald... The sole "evidence" for this claim is a grainy photograph that shows Oswald with a man who may bear a resemblance to Cruz. But experts tell PolitiFact that the image is too degraded to offer much confidence. At the same time, multiple experts about the world of early 1960s pro-Castro advocacy said they have never seen evidence of Cruz associating with Oswald and consider Trump’s claim implausible at best and ridiculous at worst.

SSS, stay on subject, please. No one here that I know of is disputing that Trump is a serial liar.

I am aware of their rating list. What Cruz and Romney (I assume) said was Obama went on an Apology Tour. That is a characterization of what he did on that tour. It is only inaccurate from someone's point of view. I have presented multiple quotes that can be reasonably interpreted as apologizing for America's past behavior. For Politifact and CNN to say it was inaccurate to characterize his trip that way shows a bias, which is made even more plain by their saying it was ridiculous on top of it. That is my belief. Am I lying to you? Answer the question....

BTW, was the 'diplomatic expert' they consulted the same one that told him to bow before the King of Saudi Arabia?

[Bob78164]

Speech by President Obama, Rhenus Sports Arena, Strasbourg, France, April 3, 2009.

So we must be honest with ourselves. In recent years we've allowed our Alliance to drift. I know that there have been honest disagreements over policy, but we also know that there's something more that has crept into our relationship. In America, there's a failure to appreciate Europe's leading role in the world. Instead of celebrating your dynamic union and seeking to partner with you to meet common challenges, there have been times where America has shown arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive.

Are you saying we've never been dismissive of France or derisive to them? I'll meet you in the cafeteria of the House of Representatives and bet you a large order of Freedom Fries that you're wrong. Or are you saying that President Obama simply shouldn't have acknowledged it. (Particularly immediately before calling upon our European allies to step up their own game.)

President Obama, address to the Summit of the Americas opening ceremony, Hyatt Regency, Port of Spain, Trinidad and Tobago, April 17, 2009.

While the United States has done much to promote peace and prosperity in the hemisphere, we have at times been disengaged, and at times we sought to dictate our terms. But I pledge to you that we seek an equal partnership. There is no senior partner and junior partner in our relations; there is simply engagement based on mutual respect and common interests and shared values. So I'm here to launch a new chapter of engagement that will be sustained throughout my administration.
The United States will be willing to acknowledge past errors where those errors have been made.

Obama made a series of these speeches, pointing out that in the past we made mistakes, and that he is now going to correct them. That is why it was termed the Apology Tour.

You're aware of the history of, for instance, the Panama Canal? --Bob

[flockofseagulls104]

Speech by President Obama, Rhenus Sports Arena, Strasbourg, France, April 3, 2009.

So we must be honest with ourselves. In recent years we've allowed our Alliance to drift. I know that there have been honest disagreements over policy, but we also know that there's something more that has crept into our relationship. In America, there's a failure to appreciate Europe's leading role in the world. Instead of celebrating your dynamic union and seeking to partner with you to meet common challenges, there have been times where America has shown arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive.

Are you saying we've never been dismissive of France or derisive to them? I'll meet you in the cafeteria of the House of Representatives and bet you a large order of Freedom Fries that you're wrong. Or are you saying that President Obama simply shouldn't have acknowledged it. (Particularly immediately before calling upon our European allies to step up their own game.)

President Obama, address to the Summit of the Americas opening ceremony, Hyatt Regency, Port of Spain, Trinidad and Tobago, April 17, 2009.

While the United States has done much to promote peace and prosperity in the hemisphere, we have at times been disengaged, and at times we sought to dictate our terms. But I pledge to you that we seek an equal partnership. There is no senior partner and junior partner in our relations; there is simply engagement based on mutual respect and common interests and shared values. So I'm here to launch a new chapter of engagement that will be sustained throughout my administration.
The United States will be willing to acknowledge past errors where those errors have been made.

Obama made a series of these speeches, pointing out that in the past we made mistakes, and that he is now going to correct them. That is why it was termed the Apology Tour.

You're aware of the history of, for instance, the Panama Canal? --Bob

Now you're changing your argument. Do they teach you that in Law School? But that's progress. You are seeing I am correct and want to change the subject. Not biting.

[Bob78164]

Are you saying we've never been dismissive of France or derisive to them? I'll meet you in the cafeteria of the House of Representatives and bet you a large order of Freedom Fries that you're wrong. Or are you saying that President Obama simply shouldn't have acknowledged it. (Particularly immediately before calling upon our European allies to step up their own game.)

You're aware of the history of, for instance, the Panama Canal? --Bob

Now you're changing your argument. Do they teach you that in Law School? But that's progress. You are seeing I am correct and want to change the subject. Not biting.

Still not apologies. This is best paraphrased as: "We haven't been perfect, and neither have you. We both need to change." Calling it an "apology tour" is inaccurate (not an apology) and inappropriately (opinion) derisive.

Why do you think the United States government should be unwilling to admit it hasn't always been perfect? More to the point, why did Romney think that? --Bob

[flockofseagulls104]

Let me put it to you this way, Bob and SSS. I am not arguing the content of the speeches. I am arguing your relying on Politifact and CNN to 'prove' something, both of which I showed as being biased in their ratings.

As for the content, in my opinion, a true statesman would recognise, or at least give the benefit of the doubt, that their predecessors made the best decisions they could given the times and circumstances they were given. Obama did not do that. He pointed out what he viewed as America's shortcomings and presented himself as superior for recognising our country's past mistakes. That is his arrogance, and that is his way of apologising for the short sightedness of his predecessors. He may believe that the administrations before his made mistakes, and he may be correct. But to point it out specifically is acknowledging that we did wrong. When you do that, whether you say 'I'm Sorry' or not, that is an apology.

That's all I am going to say on this.

[Bob Juch]

Legally or illegally?

Legally, but if Trump wins there may be a long line.

Why bother going through the legal hoops? Just go there. You might get preferred status for government services, if they are like us down there.

Golden-aged Americans can move to Equador and get preferred treatment,