joe the plumber should keep yap shut

[BackInTex]

This is what racism does. It covers up, rationalizes and minimizes positive qualities in one candidate and emphasizes negative qualities in another, just because there is a color difference.

Michelle O, Rev. Wright, and others close to Barak would do well to recognize their faults you have so eloquently identified.

[Beebs52]

This is what racism does. It covers up, rationalizes and minimizes positive qualities in one candidate and emphasizes negative qualities in another, just because there is a color difference.

Please change your font size. We're not all deaf.

[Jeemie]

Please change your font size. We're not all deaf.

WHAT?!?!?!?!?

[Beebs52]

Please change your font size. We're not all deaf.

WHAT?!?!?!?!?

Yeah. I know.

[Jeemie]

Yeah. I know.

Sorry...Bob's post completely derailed this thread off the track of reality, so I thought I'd just have some fun in it instead.

[Beebs52]

Yeah. I know.

Sorry...Bob's post completely derailed this thread off the track of reality, so I thought I'd just have some fun in it instead.

FUN?!?! FUN!?!?! WHO THE HECK HAS TIME FOR FUN!?!?! WE'RE ALL DOOMED?!?!?

[wintergreen48]

{completely off-topic race-baiting post that ends}: This is what racism does. It covers up, rationalizes and minimizes positive qualities in one candidate and emphasizes negative qualities in another, just because there is a color difference.

Bob, Bob, Bob...

What if John McCain had been a member of Fred Phelps's church for 20 years, had described Phelps as his 'spiritual mentor,' was married by Phelps, had his children baptized by Phelps, had used a Phelps sermon as the title of one of his books (but claimed that, in the 20 years he attended services at Phelps's church, he never once heard Phelps say that 'American soldiers killed by Islamist extremists deserve to die, because God is punishing them for America's sins'}, and claimed that he really admired Phelps for his civil rights work (for which the NAACP has bestowed awards on him}?

What if John McCain had held his first ever campaign event at David Duke's house (I know, David Duke is not an entirely true comparison to Ayers-- Duke, after all, is not known ever to have bombed anyone, unlike Ayers, and the Klan organization that Duke founded is not known to have bombed or killed anyone, unlike Ayers' Weathermen-- but it is the closest I could get)?

What if John McCain had had Jack Abramoff on his campaign's finance committee?

What blogs and talking points would YOU be posting now, if any of those things were true?

[Beebs52]

{completely off-topic race-baiting post that ends}: This is what racism does. It covers up, rationalizes and minimizes positive qualities in one candidate and emphasizes negative qualities in another, just because there is a color difference.

Bob, Bob, Bob...

What if John McCain had been a member of Fred Phelps's church for 20 years, had described Phelps as his 'spiritual mentor,' was married by Phelps, had his children baptized by Phelps, had used a Phelps sermon as the title of one of his books (but claimed that, in the 20 years he attended services at Phelps's church, he never once heard Phelps say that 'American soldiers killed by Islamist extremists deserve to die, because God is punishing them for America's sins'}, and claimed that he really admired Phelps for his civil rights work (for which the NAACP has bestowed awards on him}?

What if John McCain had held his first ever campaign event at David Duke's house (I know, David Duke is not an entirely true comparison to Ayers-- Duke, after all, is not known ever to have bombed anyone, unlike Ayers, and the Klan organization that Duke founded is not known to have bombed or killed anyone, unlike Ayers' Weathermen-- but it is the closest I could get)?

What if John McCain had had Jack Abramoff on his campaign's finance committee?

What blogs and talking points would YOU be posting now, if any of those things were true?

Now, now, Mr. Green. Woulda shoulda coulda. An Hillaryesque sort of attitude. Tsk. Tsk. Tsk.

Rec. Rec. Rec.

[NellyLunatic1980]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!

[Tocqueville3]

{completely off-topic race-baiting post that ends}: This is what racism does. It covers up, rationalizes and minimizes positive qualities in one candidate and emphasizes negative qualities in another, just because there is a color difference.

Bob, Bob, Bob...

What if John McCain had been a member of Fred Phelps's church for 20 years, had described Phelps as his 'spiritual mentor,' was married by Phelps, had his children baptized by Phelps, had used a Phelps sermon as the title of one of his books (but claimed that, in the 20 years he attended services at Phelps's church, he never once heard Phelps say that 'American soldiers killed by Islamist extremists deserve to die, because God is punishing them for America's sins'}, and claimed that he really admired Phelps for his civil rights work (for which the NAACP has bestowed awards on him}?

What if John McCain had held his first ever campaign event at David Duke's house (I know, David Duke is not an entirely true comparison to Ayers-- Duke, after all, is not known ever to have bombed anyone, unlike Ayers, and the Klan organization that Duke founded is not known to have bombed or killed anyone, unlike Ayers' Weathermen-- but it is the closest I could get)?

What if John McCain had had Jack Abramoff on his campaign's finance committee?

What blogs and talking points would YOU be posting now, if any of those things were true?

REC!!!REC!!!REC!!!REC!!!REC!!!REC!!!REC!!!REC!!!REC!!!REC!!!

[Flybrick]

Interesting take on Senator Obama being asked a question and the Senator's answer.

Is the point of those vilifying Joe that only squeeky clean, approved Citizens (capitilized for a reason) may ask Senator Obama a question?

Is the Senator's response not valid for discussion and/or political gain?

Would you approve of the same tactic if, for example, a black, inner city man asked Senator McCain to explain his policy on welfare and if McCain had said, "Get a job?"

Wouldn't such a divergence from the smooth talking points merit attention?

Would you think it proper for the Republicans to dig into the black questioner's private life (remember both Joe and my hypothetical example are private citizens)?

Suppression of dissent or opposing views is one long trumpeted by the anti-Bush, anti-Iraq War league. While I never thought their views were suppressed, merely and rightly ignored, I always thought they would not use the same tactics as they had claimed had been used against them.

Like on so much, I was wrong.

Some historical precedents for such 'shoot the messenger' political systems - The French Revolution, Napoleon's first reign, Hitler's Nazis.

How'd all those work out?

[themanintheseersuckersuit]

REC!!!REC!!!REC!!!REC!!!REC!!!REC!!!REC!!!REC!!!REC!!!REC!!!

I rec tocq's rainbow of recs

[Bob Juch]

Interesting take on Senator Obama being asked a question and the Senator's answer.

Is the point of those vilifying Joe that only squeeky clean, approved Citizens (capitilized for a reason) may ask Senator Obama a question?

Is the Senator's response not valid for discussion and/or political gain?

Would you approve of the same tactic if, for example, a black, inner city man asked Senator McCain to explain his policy on welfare and if McCain had said, "Get a job?"

Wouldn't such a divergence from the smooth talking points merit attention?

Would you think it proper for the Republicans to dig into the black questioner's private life (remember both Joe and my hypothetical example are private citizens)?

Suppression of dissent or opposing views is one long trumpeted by the anti-Bush, anti-Iraq War league. While I never thought their views were suppressed, merely and rightly ignored, I always thought they would not use the same tactics as they had claimed had been used against them.

Like on so much, I was wrong.

Some historical precedents for such 'shoot the messenger' political systems - The French Revolution, Napoleon's first reign, Hitler's Nazis.

How'd all those work out?

Show me anything that points to Obama's campaign doing any investigating or saying anything about "Joe the plumber". It's just the media.

[peacock2121]

joe does not make 260k a year before or after expenses, though he hopes to one day

joe has been plumbing without a license

the owner of the plumbing biness joe wants to buy has no plans to sell to joe

joe owes back taxes to ohia

1) Joe never said he owned his business or that he made 250K a year. He said that if things went well he hoped to buy the business where he works (he called it his business but it's actually a two-man firm owned by the other guy and hearing his full comments it was clear to me that he didn't own the business now).

2) A state plumber's license, which entitles an individual to work as a plumber on commercial projects measures knowledge and skills but it is not required under Ohio law for residential plumbing.

3) City, township and county plumber's licenses entitle a business to do work in the municipality. They are revenue generating measures like any business license, not a determination by the municipality that any individual has plumbing skills. Joe's business has a city license for Toledo but apparently does not have a county license. That's very common for small contractors (I worked for a satellite contractor so I know), who may only do one or two jobs a year in any particular municipality and don't get licenses each and every place they do a job. If caught, which is rare, they wind up buying a licenese and that's it.

In any event, how does the fact that Joe's employer may not have a license in a county have anything to do with Joe? When was the last time you checked if your employer had every single city, county, and state license and permit that was required to under the law? Does

4) I suspect that there's a lot of those "average" folks that Obama claims to be working for who have had tax problems or collectors after them or judgments or garnishments or similar financial problems. Apparently, Obama is working for Joe as long as Joe keeps his mouth shut but not if he dares to criticize the Chosen One.

Bottom line.... Obama said something stupid about his tax policy which is what usually happens when he gets off his teleprompter and his memorized talking points and tries to actually answer a real question. He gets messed up because he doesn't really know what he's talking about. So rather than try to explain it, people try to demonize Joe as being somehow less than a model citizen. Whether he is or not (and he seems to have done nothing illegal other than be behind on his taxes), that doesn't make his criticism of Obama somehow less valid or Obama's moronic response any better.

bdm's just drooling again

sorry, but that is a bit funny.

[peacock2121]

Thank you for sharing your latest forwarded e-mail with us.

This is funny as well.

[peacock2121]

{completely off-topic race-baiting post that ends}: This is what racism does. It covers up, rationalizes and minimizes positive qualities in one candidate and emphasizes negative qualities in another, just because there is a color difference.

Bob, Bob, Bob...

What if John McCain had been a member of Fred Phelps's church for 20 years, had described Phelps as his 'spiritual mentor,' was married by Phelps, had his children baptized by Phelps, had used a Phelps sermon as the title of one of his books (but claimed that, in the 20 years he attended services at Phelps's church, he never once heard Phelps say that 'American soldiers killed by Islamist extremists deserve to die, because God is punishing them for America's sins'}, and claimed that he really admired Phelps for his civil rights work (for which the NAACP has bestowed awards on him}?

What if John McCain had held his first ever campaign event at David Duke's house (I know, David Duke is not an entirely true comparison to Ayers-- Duke, after all, is not known ever to have bombed anyone, unlike Ayers, and the Klan organization that Duke founded is not known to have bombed or killed anyone, unlike Ayers' Weathermen-- but it is the closest I could get)?

What if John McCain had had Jack Abramoff on his campaign's finance committee?

What blogs and talking points would YOU be posting now, if any of those things were true?

I love it when wintergeen says someone's name 3 times.

[Flybrick]

Show me anything that points to Obama's campaign doing any investigating or saying anything about "Joe the plumber". It's just the media.

1. Guy from Obama's campaign or a Democratic "strategist" on MSNBC (surprise!) making the points about Joe's tax lien.

2. It's even worse that the media is doing the work. Anyone recall the same scrutiny on the college student who phone/camera filmed former Va. Senator Robb when he used his famous 'macaca' line?

The focus, rightly, was on the candidate, not the interlocutor.

So, do you think it right for "Joe" to vilified for asking a question?

[Bob78164]

So, do you think it right for "Joe" to vilified for asking a question?

He's not being vilified. He's having his whole story told.

To the extent "Joe the Plumber" has resonance, it's because he was, or appeared to be, authentic. He claimed to be a real-life representative of the American Dream who would suffer a tax increase under Obama. It turns out, though, that he's not so authentic after all. He's clearly got issues with taxes, he's not actually in position to buy the business he said he wanted to buy, and under Obama's tax plan, he'll enjoy a tax cut, not a tax increase.

If he didn't want the press to scrutinize facts that are, after all, public record, he probably shouldn't have accepted his invitations to the television news shows.

Now let's talk about McCain's connections to convicted felon G. Gordon Liddy. --Bob

[Beebs52]

So, do you think it right for "Joe" to vilified for asking a question?

He's not being vilified. He's having his whole story told.

To the extent "Joe the Plumber" has resonance, it's because he was, or appeared to be, authentic. He claimed to be a real-life representative of the American Dream who would suffer a tax increase under Obama. It turns out, though, that he's not so authentic after all. He's clearly got issues with taxes, he's not actually in position to buy the business he said he wanted to buy, and under Obama's tax plan, he'll enjoy a tax cut, not a tax increase.


If he didn't want the press to scrutinize facts that are, after all, public record, he probably shouldn't have accepted his invitations to the television news shows.

Now let's talk about McCain's connections to convicted felon G. Gordon Liddy. --Bob

Now, Bob. We're all getting a little too drilling down for comfort, I think. How about New
Hampshire's Biden campaign manager from awhile back? I googled this for this post only. So, I have no desire to drag it out particularly. It's just that, felons keep popping up everywhere, it seems.

http://www.concordmonitor.com/article/2 ... /808300358

[Jeemie]

So, do you think it right for "Joe" to vilified for asking a question?

He's not being vilified. He's having his whole story told.

To the extent "Joe the Plumber" has resonance, it's because he was, or appeared to be, authentic. He claimed to be a real-life representative of the American Dream who would suffer a tax increase under Obama. It turns out, though, that he's not so authentic after all. He's clearly got issues with taxes, he's not actually in position to buy the business he said he wanted to buy, and under Obama's tax plan, he'll enjoy a tax cut, not a tax increase.

If he didn't want the press to scrutinize facts that are, after all, public record, he probably shouldn't have accepted his invitations to the television news shows.

Now let's talk about McCain's connections to convicted felon G. Gordon Liddy. --Bob

So you get caught up in style v substance too?

Anyhow, you're wrong.

He doesn't have resonance because he was authentic.

He has resonance because he got Obama to say "share the wealth" (in whatever context).

Obama doesn't say that, and this whole thing dies.

So, it comes back to the substance of the questions being asked and the answers given, and instead of addressing those, politicians, as usual, go into "attack the messenger" mode.

[Hello, Mini!]

Show me anything that points to Obama's campaign doing any investigating or saying anything about "Joe the plumber". It's just the media.

1. Guy from Obama's campaign or a Democratic "strategist" on MSNBC (surprise!) making the points about Joe's tax lien.

2. It's even worse that the media is doing the work. Anyone recall the same scrutiny on the college student who phone/camera filmed former Va. Senator Robb when he used his famous 'macaca' line?

The focus, rightly, was on the candidate, not the interlocutor.

So, do you think it right for "Joe" to vilified for asking a question?

You can scrutinize the "macaca" guy all you want. He seems to be a pretty decent kid. You can start here with a name and everything:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S._R._Sidarth

[silverscreenselect]

So, do you think it right for "Joe" to vilified for asking a question?

He's not being vilified. He's having his whole story told.

To the extent "Joe the Plumber" has resonance, it's because he was, or appeared to be, authentic. He claimed to be a real-life representative of the American Dream who would suffer a tax increase under Obama. It turns out, though, that he's not so authentic after all. He's clearly got issues with taxes, he's not actually in position to buy the business he said he wanted to buy, and under Obama's tax plan, he'll enjoy a tax cut, not a tax increase.

Joe said he hoped to buy his business. That's probably the dream of a lot of people who work for small businesses, and most of them probably aren't in a financial position to do so this moment. I don't know how that makes him "inauthentic." He's a lot more authentic than Obama whose entire career is built on his press clippings and self-serving books. In Joe's case, he was working in a two-man business and there was a good chance the older man who owned the business was grooming Joe as his successor. It's not that farfetched to believe that Joe might be able to get the funding some day (he said he would probably have to pay it off over time) to buy the original owner out when he's ready to retire. That's how lines of succession work in a lot of small companies. Certainly, getting his finances in order, learning the business, and someday buying it is the essence of the American Dream.

He asked a question. Obama gave a stupid answer and now Joe's being hounded for tax liens. The message from Obama is clear: he only cares about those of the little people who back him as long as they give him their undying adulation. For everyone else, there's a lot of room under the bus.

[Hello, Mini!]

Maybe, just maybe, someone got information so they could show this guy exactly where he would stand under each candidate's plan, and real facts caused this guy's fiction to unravel.

He's really better off under Obama, tax-wise. He just doesn't want to hear it, so he creates a fantasy life for himself and asks a question based on that fantasy. McCain's campaign is all about imagery and symbolism and fantasy because their reality is looking pretty bleak, and they run with it. The real guy gets exposed and goes down. The end.

[Jeemie]

Maybe, just maybe, someone got information so they could show this guy exactly where he would stand under each candidate's plan, and real facts caused this guy's fiction to unravel.

He's really better off under Obama, tax-wise. He just doesn't want to hear it, so he creates a fantasy life for himself and asks a question based on that fantasy. McCain's campaign is all about imagery and symbolism and fantasy because their reality is looking pretty bleak, and they run with it. The real guy gets exposed and goes down. The end.

Actually, to focus on "individual cases", as if they are in a vacuum, is NOT the way to go...although I see why the political candidates would want to try and make that the focus.

The REAL to be asked are the macro-level questions, not "will I individually will be better off?" using some metric that may or may not be accurate.

Are Obama's plans- or McCain's- good for the economy in general? Those are the questions that need to be asked.

A $1000 tax break and health plan tax credits may not be good if it causes Average Joes to lose their jobs en masse.

Conversely, McCain's plans add trillions more to the deficit, so even if the Average Joes don't lose their jobs, they will continue to get harder and harder hit by the hidden tax of dollar devaluation.

These questions are more relevant- but they're very complex, so of course politicians don't address them.

[silverscreenselect]

He's really better off under Obama, tax-wise. He just doesn't want to hear it, so he creates a fantasy life for himself and asks a question based on that fantasy. McCain's campaign is all about imagery and symbolism and fantasy because their reality is looking pretty bleak, and they run with it. The real guy gets exposed and goes down. The end.

If Obama is elected, the "Obama tax plan," like the "Obama energy plan" and the "Obama health plan" are never ever ever ever ever going to see the light of day. Obama doesn't care about any of that. He's reciting talking points about which he knows little, becacuse every time someone gets him off his talking points, as with Joe the plumber and the capital gains tax question duringone of the debates, he displays his ignorance. People who think that the Obama presidency is going to be some big transformative presidency along the lines of FDR are sadly mistaken.

Obama will do what is politically popular, which in terms of the economy means a tax structure that's going to look pretty much the same as the one we have now. Whatever does get enacted (probably a few new tax credits), is going to be heralded by Obama and his media syncophants as a giant victory for the middle class but it won't do much for the vast majority of people, it won't stabilize the economy, and it won't begin to balance the budget.

All you have to do is quit listening to the teleprompter speeches and look at the man's record and you see the ultimate play-it-safe, have-it-both-ways, do-nothing politician.

I truly fear that Obama will be the last president from the Democratic party I see in my lifetime (note I didn't say last Democratic president, because he's no Democrat).