More brilliant scientists admitting they really have no clue

[PlacentiaSoccerMom]

Keep in mind that I am not saying that a parent should not give a reason beyond "I said so". I am saying that a child, merely by virtue of his age, does not have the inherent right for a reason beyond "I said so."

My kids have been questioning authority since they learned to talk.

That's what I like about them.

"I said so" seldom works with them, but I have found that they question me less as they get older.

It makes it more difficult to parent, but I am not the only person they question.

Today, for instance, Emma has to go to the S.A.F.E. program. (It's like DARE.) The instructor, a Placentia police officer has already been caught in a lie by Emma and when I wrote her a letter about her comments, she tried to lie again and get Emma in trouble. (Emma's teacher confirmed that Emma was telling the truth and the officer lied.)

Last week the S.A.F.E. officer said that all alcohol is bad. Emma, not believing her, spent time reading about the impact of red wine on cholesterol levels and is prepared to confront her today.

Emma's teacher has told me that he enjoys watching Emma spar with the lady because Emma can say the things that he would like to say...

[silvercamaro]

My kids have been questioning authority since they learned to talk.

That's what I like about them.

Smart kids and smart dogs are major pains in the @sses -- but they're the most interesting kind to have around.

[MarleysGh0st]

Keep in mind that I am not saying that a parent should not give a reason beyond "I said so". I am saying that a child, merely by virtue of his age, does not have the inherent right for a reason beyond "I said so."

My kids have been questioning authority since they learned to talk.

There goes our nice, orderly thread. Now we're off on a tangent about child raising.

[silvercamaro]

There goes our nice, orderly thread. Now we're off on a tangent about child raising.

Think of it as free-form, serendipitous discussion.

[mrkelley23]

Keep in mind that I am not saying that a parent should not give a reason beyond "I said so". I am saying that a child, merely by virtue of his age, does not have the inherent right for a reason beyond "I said so."

My kids have been questioning authority since they learned to talk.

There goes our nice, orderly thread. Now we're off on a tangent about child raising.

I don't think it's a tangent. I think child rearing is BiT's main reason for raising the question. I don't agree with him, and I do roll my eyes, at least a little, when he brings it up. But I don't question his motivations.

[mrkelley23]

I do admit that I would pay money to watch my 3 boys, BiT's girls, PSM's girls, and Appa's crew, (not to mention Cal's and all the others on this Bored) get together for a day or two. With audio and video recording running, for posterity.

[BackInTex]

My kids have been questioning authority since they learned to talk.

That's what I like about them.

/other stuff deleted to save space/

Emma's teacher has told me that he enjoys watching Emma spar with the lady because Emma can say the things that he would like to say...

So you seem to encourage, and possibly praise, your daughter to show disrespect not only to adults, but to peace officers? Do I have this right?

Regardless of whether the officer is 'caught in a lie' or not, it is uncalled for.

You can question authority, and should, but respectfully, and at the right time and in the right place. In an open classroom with other kids is not the place.

Geesh, you seem to be wearing it like a badge of honor.

I hope I'm missing something.

[Appa23]

I do admit that I would pay money to watch my 3 boys, BiT's girls, PSM's girls, and Appa's crew, (not to mention Cal's and all the others on this Bored) get together for a day or two. With audio and video recording running, for posterity.

How are your boys with changing diapers?

IIRC, you have a boy who does gymnastics, so the PP would enjoy hanging with your brood. The Boy would be fine if your sons are into video games and Pokemon.

I know nothing of BiT's girls and next-to-nothing of Cal's girls. However, I can not imagine too much harm being done there.

[MarleysGh0st]

I do admit that I would pay money to watch my 3 boys, BiT's girls, PSM's girls, and Appa's crew, (not to mention Cal's and all the others on this Bored) get together for a day or two. With audio and video recording running, for posterity.

I'd be glad to contribute to that. A BB TNG get-together!

PSM says Emma questions authority and has a morbid sense of humor. I picture her in the classroom as Christina Ricci in her Wednesday Addams role.

[Bob78164]

So you seem to encourage, and possibly praise, your daughter to show disrespect not only to adults, but to peace officers? Do I have this right?

You do not. I've met PSM's daughters. Her younger daughter is often argumentative, and willing to stick to her opinions. I've never seen her disrespectful. (Of course, I've undoubtedly only seen her company manners.)

And to address the rest of your post, it does no one any favors for students to remain passively quiet when, in school, they are being taught as fact information that is demonstrably false. And if the teacher can't challenge the falsehoods, then more power to students who can and will. --Bob

[themanintheseersuckersuit]

Bit wrote

Regardless of whether the officer is 'caught in a lie' or not, it is uncalled for.

You can question authority, and should, but respectfully, and at the right time and in the right place. In an open classroom with other kids is not the place.

I agree with BiT this is extremely dangerous and could lead to a child becoming a ........


wait for it....



Lawyer

[gsabc]

You can question authority, and should, but respectfully, and at the right time and in the right place. In an open classroom with other kids is not the place.

It is exactly the time and place, if that's where the original issue came up. Statements from authority figures are most often accepted as absolute truth from school-age kids. The time to point out provably incorrect statements is right then and there. The authority figure may stick by their statement at that time, but if it's not questioned at all, all those kids will leave "knowing" erroneous information. The likelihood that the figure will return later to correct the information to those kids, if the issue is pointed out afterwards AND if they are willing to admit the error at all, is even more slight.

[BackInTex]

And to address the rest of your post, it does no one any favors for students to remain passively quiet when, in school, they are being taught as fact information that is demonstrably false. And if the teacher can't challenge the falsehoods, then more power to students who can and will. --Bob

And thus everyone is directed back to post number 1 in this thread.

[Bob78164]

And to address the rest of your post, it does no one any favors for students to remain passively quiet when, in school, they are being taught as fact information that is demonstrably false. And if the teacher can't challenge the falsehoods, then more power to students who can and will. --Bob

And thus everyone is directed back to post number 1 in this thread.

I chose the words "demonstrably false" (emphasis added) carefully. --Bob

[BackInTex]

You can question authority, and should, but respectfully, and at the right time and in the right place. In an open classroom with other kids is not the place.

It is exactly the time and place, if that's where the original issue came up. Statements from authority figures are most often accepted as absolute truth from school-age kids. The time to point out provably incorrect statements is right then and there. The authority figure may stick by their statement at that time, but if it's not questioned at all, all those kids will leave "knowing" erroneous information. The likelihood that the figure will return later to correct the information to those kids, if the issue is pointed out afterwards AND if they are willing to admit the error at all, is even more slight.

Emma seems to be arguing just to argue technicalities. The officer stating that all alcohol is bad might have been in the context that the officer is speaking to a group of (5th graders?) kids whom all should refrain from all alcohol. Almost any discussion will have points where individual facts can be challenged, especially in certain contexts. Yeah, some alcohol has some benefits, at least in the latest scientific study, just as milk is good for you could be challenged by some smart ass person that cholesterol causes heart problems.

And the teacher seems to have a attitude, too, and doesn't seem to appreciate the effort by the officer. You have a person, the officer, who has committed to serving the public, and some twit is making fun behind her back. That officer could just as easily say "screw it I'm not talking to a bunch a bratty kids. Let the teachers do their job."

[Appa23]

Bit wrote

Regardless of whether the officer is 'caught in a lie' or not, it is uncalled for.

You can question authority, and should, but respectfully, and at the right time and in the right place. In an open classroom with other kids is not the place.

I agree with BiT this is extremely dangerous and could lead to a child becoming a ........


wait for it....



Lawyer

who is routinely cited for Contempt of Court.

[silvercamaro]

Sheesh. Some people seem to think that it's not possible to present alternate viewpoints in a polite and respectful manner. It can be done, however. I've found that kid people often are better at it than grown-up people (with or without law degrees.)

[BackInTex]

I chose the words "demonstrably false" (emphasis added) carefully. --Bob

That whole article is about how what they thought and obviously taught somewhere (but not 5th grade) was wrong. And now they talk like what they now 'know' that disproves what they previously 'knew' is fact. Which was my whole point.

And it had nothing to do with child rearing.

[PlacentiaSoccerMom]

My kids have been questioning authority since they learned to talk.

That's what I like about them.

/other stuff deleted to save space/

Emma's teacher has told me that he enjoys watching Emma spar with the lady because Emma can say the things that he would like to say...

So you seem to encourage, and possibly praise, your daughter to show disrespect not only to adults, but to peace officers? Do I have this right?

Regardless of whether the officer is 'caught in a lie' or not, it is uncalled for.

You can question authority, and should, but respectfully, and at the right time and in the right place. In an open classroom with other kids is not the place.

Geesh, you seem to be wearing it like a badge of honor.

I hope I'm missing something.

There is a huge difference between showing disrespect and blindly accepting what other people say just because they are in a position of authority. Just because somebody is a police officer doesn't give them the right to lie to children.

The teachers at Emma's school got together and wanted to stop having this officer come because of the lie. Because of political reasons they were not allowed to say anything.

Emma did.

She has every right to question this teacher, especially if the adults at her school are not allowed to.

[PlacentiaSoccerMom]

I do admit that I would pay money to watch my 3 boys, BiT's girls, PSM's girls, and Appa's crew, (not to mention Cal's and all the others on this Bored) get together for a day or two. With audio and video recording running, for posterity.

Emma would probably love Appa's kids because they are younger. She loves kids, it's adults she has no use for

[MarleysGh0st]

And thus everyone is directed back to post number 1 in this thread.

Which is still the strawman argument of "They're teaching this as a fact and not 'just a theory'!" Which isn't so, certainly not when the conversation is sophisticated enough to get into such distinctions.

As, for instance, when a sixth grader can question, openly and directly, certain declarations of fact presented by an authority figure in a classroom presentation.

[PlacentiaSoccerMom]

So you seem to encourage, and possibly praise, your daughter to show disrespect not only to adults, but to peace officers? Do I have this right?

You do not. I've met PSM's daughters. Her younger daughter is often argumentative, and willing to stick to her opinions. I've never seen her disrespectful. (Of course, I've undoubtedly only seen her company manners.)

Thank you Bob!

Emma doesn't have "company" manner. With her, what you see is what you get.

[BackInTex]

Sheesh. Some people seem to think that it's not possible to present alternate viewpoints in a polite and respectful manner. It can be done, however. I've found that kid people often are better at it than grown-up people (with or without law degrees.)

Explain how a 5th grader (is that assumption correct?) can politely and respectfully 'confront' and 'spar' with a police officer in front of a class of children that the statement made previously by that officer was wrong, given that that child made it a personal mission to prove it, and the officer, wrong. It can't be done, primarily because the mission itself it self is disrespectful.

Now if Emma simply wanted to know more about it herself, and perhaps inform her classmates on the opinions of the medical researchers who claim benefits of specific wines, that would not be disrespectful.


Edit.......above opinion put on hold until the next post is answered.....end of edit

[BackInTex]

Just because somebody is a police officer doesn't give them the right to lie to children.

The teachers at Emma's school got together and wanted to stop having this officer come because of the lie. Because of political reasons they were not allowed to say anything.

Emma did.

She has every right to question this teacher, especially if the adults at her school are not allowed to.

So what was the lie? Maybe that will help me understand.

[Bob78164]

Explain how a 5th grader (is that assumption correct?) can politely and respectfully 'confront' and 'spar' with a police officer in front of a class of children that the statement made previously by that officer was wrong, given that that child made it a personal mission to prove it, and the officer, wrong. It can't be done, primarily because the mission itself it self is disrespectful.

Now if Emma simply wanted to know more about it herself, and perhaps inform her classmates on the opinions of the medical researchers who claim benefits of specific wines, that would not be disrespectful.

It is not disrespectful to point out that the emperor has no clothes when the emperor is, in fact, naked. And if the emperor insists on maintaining that he is, in fact, invisibly clothed, it is not disrespectful to point out that tests have falsified the emperor's hypothesis. And that remains true no matter how embarrassing the emperor may find the truth.

If the officer isn't sufficiently well armed with facts to defend her position against the assault of a fifth grader, then a decent respect for the importance of critical thinking compels me to wonder what she's doing in front of a class in the first place. --Bob