Afghans and Homosexuality

[Spock]

>>>Spock, your concern for gays (and that of many right wingers) is touching. You don't want them dead at the hand of Muslims because it fits in with your preconceived notions of radical Islam and your political agenda, but you don't want them extended any civil rights other than to be allowed to keep breathing somewhere where they don't inconvenience you.<<<

Obviously, SSS is too busy tying me to the murderous Imam to put any thought into said Imam.

However, it might be notable and worthy of thought to some that it appears that he might not simply be a blowhard in a mosque, but that he might actually be an architect of policy in Iran and other Islamic-controlled areas. In other words, he might have actual blood on his hands.

http://nypost.com/2016/06/14/hate-imam- ... -massacre/

>>>>“I was explaining what Islamic law – in a country whose people democratically desired Islamic law to be exercised – states in relation to NOT homosexuals, but rather in relation to when the act of anal copulation is executed in such an aforementioned public.”<<<<

Sheikh Farrokh Sekaleshfar should be a household name among the left-especially with the coincidental events in Orlando. But we are obviously giving him and the mosque in which he spoke, a complete pass.

Given the dearth of babies among the native Europeans (for lack of a better term) and mass Muslim immigration, it is likely that within a few years that "Democratically desired Islamic Law" will be instituted in parts of Europe.

I am certainly open for discussion if you have a different idea about what the future holds for Europe. However, in your response, please remember to factor in the dearth of traditional European(for lack of a better term) babies.

I wonder how far away in time we are in places like France and Belgium from Democratically desired Islamic Law executing those engaging in "Anal Copulation."

[silverscreenselect]

Obviously, SSS is too busy tying me to the murderous Imam to put any thought into said Imam.

However, it might be notable and worthy of thought to some that it appears that he might not simply be a blowhard in a mosque, but that he might actually be an architect of policy in Iran and other Islamic-controlled areas. In other words, he might have actual blood on his hands.

Well, I didn't see anything in that article that indicated that he might be an architect of policy in Iran. And no indication that his visit had any connection with Mateen's activities, seeing as how Mateen had been a regular at Pulse for several years. And, most important, no indication that his views are indicative of those of the vast majority of Muslims in the United States, who have spoken out against people like him over and over again. But still, the right wingers want to lump them all together under the banner of "radical Islam" and claim that the other Muslims are just pulling the wool over the eyes of gullible liberals.

And we've already seen how right wing fundamentalists are architects of policy in North Carolina.

The difference is that he want gays dead; most with similar views about the sinfulness of homosexuality in this country are content with marginalizing and humiliating them and denying them basic rights. Right wingers in this country can't excuse decades of discrimination and bigotry against gays, much of it based on religion, by a week of pious chest thumping and observations that some Muslims are worse.

[Spock]

Spock says>>>>Just a "Minor" example of what is happening there is that in many areas with large Muslim populations is that many young non-muslim young women are just finding it easier to don a head scarf to avoid harassment. <<<<

SSS's breezy response and personal attack on Spock>>>"Of course, you wouldn't know that by spending all your time listening to the fearmongers who tell you that it's only a matter of a couple of years before your wife will have to wear a burka in public."<<<<

I am not worried about a couple of years from now. In France/Belgium today-young non-muslim women in heavily Muslim areas are donning headscarves to avoid harassment as "Western Sluts." But you don't have an answer for that so you personally attack Spock as a fear-monger.

[Bob Juch]

I am trying to remember if I have ever actually seen 2 men kiss.

Outside of newspaper photos (and so forth) and my extensive collection of Gay Porn, probably not.

My last time in the Hot Seat was during the first weekend in June 2006 at WDW which happened to be Gay Pride Weekend. I saw a lot of men kissing, women too. How come whenever people talk about gays, it's always about them men?

[Bob78164]

>>>Spock, your concern for gays (and that of many right wingers) is touching. You don't want them dead at the hand of Muslims because it fits in with your preconceived notions of radical Islam and your political agenda, but you don't want them extended any civil rights other than to be allowed to keep breathing somewhere where they don't inconvenience you.<<<

Obviously, SSS is too busy tying me to the murderous Imam to put any thought into said Imam.

However, it might be notable and worthy of thought to some that it appears that he might not simply be a blowhard in a mosque, but that he might actually be an architect of policy in Iran and other Islamic-controlled areas. In other words, he might have actual blood on his hands.

http://nypost.com/2016/06/14/hate-imam- ... -massacre/

>>>>“I was explaining what Islamic law – in a country whose people democratically desired Islamic law to be exercised – states in relation to NOT homosexuals, but rather in relation to when the act of anal copulation is executed in such an aforementioned public.”<<<<

Sheikh Farrokh Sekaleshfar should be a household name among the left-especially with the coincidental events in Orlando. But we are obviously giving him and the mosque in which he spoke, a complete pass.

Given the dearth of babies among the native Europeans (for lack of a better term) and mass Muslim immigration, it is likely that within a few years that "Democratically desired Islamic Law" will be instituted in parts of Europe.

I am certainly open for discussion if you have a different idea about what the future holds for Europe. However, in your response, please remember to factor in the dearth of traditional European(for lack of a better term) babies.

I wonder how far away in time we are in places like France and Belgium from Democratically desired Islamic Law executing those engaging in "Anal Copulation."

According to the story that you linked, the mosque where he spoke had no idea of his views when he was invited and they were mortified. And most important, I saw no evidence that he's any more representative of Islam that Pastor Rick Jimenez is of Christianity.

The tragedy is that more of them didn’t die. The tragedy is — I’m kind of upset that he didn’t finish the job!

Or even Congressman Rick Allen of Georgia, who actually has some ability to enact his views into law.

Islam has no monopoly on asswipes. This isn't a problem about Islam. It's a problem about bigoted asswipes. And tarring all of Islam with the views of these bigoted asswipes helps spread bigotry, if not asswipery. --Bob

[Spock]

Obviously, SSS is too busy tying me to the murderous Imam to put any thought into said Imam.

However, it might be notable and worthy of thought to some that it appears that he might not simply be a blowhard in a mosque, but that he might actually be an architect of policy in Iran and other Islamic-controlled areas. In other words, he might have actual blood on his hands.

Well, I didn't see anything in that article that indicated that he might be an architect of policy in Iran. And no indication that his visit had any connection with Mateen's activities, seeing as how Mateen had been a regular at Pulse for several years. And, most important, no indication that his views are indicative of those of the vast majority of Muslims in the United States, who have spoken out against people like him over and over again. But still, the right wingers want to lump them all together under the banner of "radical Islam" and claim that the other Muslims are just pulling the wool over the eyes of gullible liberals.

And we've already seen how right wing fundamentalists are architects of policy in North Carolina.

The difference is that he want gays dead; most with similar views about the sinfulness of homosexuality in this country are content with marginalizing and humiliating them and denying them basic rights. Right wingers in this country can't excuse decades of discrimination and bigotry against gays, much of it based on religion, by a week of pious chest thumping and observations that some Muslims are worse.

I admit I exaggerated a little, I just wanted to have the fun of seeing you parse the article and which way you might go with it.

[Spock]

Bob #'s>>>According to the story that you linked, the mosque where he spoke had no idea of his views when he was invited and they were mortified. <<<<

My God, you are credulous.

First line of the story.

"A firebrand Muslim cleric noted for sermons calling for gay people to be executed."

But the mosque in question had absolutely no idea of his views? I am guessing that Muslims in Orlando might have heard of something called the internet and that they maybe do a little research into visiting Imams.

[Spock]

SSS>>>"I don't know what your ethnic background is, but I'd venture that when your ancestors arrived, the people who were already here were worried about massive numbers of them coming and preaching whatever it is they were afraid of. And guess what, we've assimilated them. We assimilated the first bunch of English, and the Irish, and the Germans, and the Italians, and the Russians (like my ancestors), and the Chinese, and the Mexicans, and the Africans (who were the only group who didn't come here voluntarily). "<<<<<

Be careful, you would be banned from, and/or protested, on many college campuses as a Raging Right Winger for extolling the benefits of Assimilation.

Obviously, my argument is that we do a piss-poor job of assimilation anymore. Admittedly, we do a far better job of assimilation than Europe does, as far as that goes. But discuss.

Per immigration. The core lens that I examine the immigration issue through is that 1850's pre-welfare state immigration is an entirely different animal than 3rd World immigration to a modern welfare state is. They are apples and oranges.

[Bob78164]

Bob #'s>>>According to the story that you linked, the mosque where he spoke had no idea of his views when he was invited and they were mortified. <<<<

My God, you are credulous.

First line of the story.

"A firebrand Muslim cleric noted for sermons calling for gay people to be executed."

But the mosque in question had absolutely no idea of his views? I am guessing that Muslims in Orlando might have heard of something called the internet and that they maybe do a little research into visiting Imams.

You keep harping on this one asswipe while ignoring the asswipes I have cited (and linked) in this thread who justify their own brand of bigotry in the name of Christianity.

A major contributor here in California to the Prop 8 campaign (which reversed our Supreme Court's decision legalizing same-sex marriage under the state constitution) was the Mormon Church. That's what widespread bigotry looks like.

Just because this particular asswipe claimed to speak for Islam doesn't make it so. Unless you have evidence (such as that claimed by The Orange One to the effect that local Moslems in New Jersey cheered 9-11) that his asswipery attracts widespread support among the Islamic community (when pretty much all of the public commentary I've seen condemns it), then you have no more right to claim that Islam is violent than anyone has to claim that Christianity is violent based on the asswipery of people like Rick Jimenez, the Westboro Baptist Church, or Congressman Rick Allen of Georgia. --Bob

[BackInTex]

Bob #'s>>>According to the story that you linked, the mosque where he spoke had no idea of his views when he was invited and they were mortified. <<<<

My God, you are credulous.

First line of the story.

"A firebrand Muslim cleric noted for sermons calling for gay people to be executed."

But the mosque in question had absolutely no idea of his views? I am guessing that Muslims in Orlando might have heard of something called the internet and that they maybe do a little research into visiting Imams.

You keep harping on this one asswipe while ignoring the asswipes I have cited (and linked) in this thread who justify their own brand of bigotry in the name of Christianity.

A major contributor here in California to the Prop 8 campaign (which reversed our Supreme Court's decision legalizing same-sex marriage under the state constitution) was the Mormon Church. That's what widespread bigotry looks like.

Just because this particular asswipe claimed to speak for Islam doesn't make it so. Unless you have evidence (such as that claimed by The Orange One to the effect that local Moslems in New Jersey cheered 9-11) that his asswipery attracts widespread support among the Islamic community (when pretty much all of the public commentary I've seen condemns it), then you have no more right to claim that Islam is violent than anyone has to claim that Christianity is violent based on the asswipery of people like Rick Jimenez, the Westboro Baptist Church, or Congressman Rick Allen of Georgia. --Bob

We've been here before. Mormans are not Chritians. No more than Jews are. Maybe less.

[silverscreenselect]

We've been here before. Mormans are not Chritians. No more than Jews are. Maybe less.

BiT may have a point here. Most Mormons can't stand Donald Trump, unlike fundamentalist Christians who are just fine with the Donald.

http://religionnews.com/2016/03/22/5-re ... ommentary/

[Spock]

Bob#S>>>"You keep harping on this one asswipe while ignoring the asswipes I have cited (and linked) in this thread who justify their own brand of bigotry in the name of Christianity.

A major contributor here in California to the Prop 8 campaign (which reversed our Supreme Court's decision legalizing same-sex marriage under the state constitution) was the Mormon Church. That's what widespread bigotry looks like"<<<<

I get that you guys have the warm and fuzzies toward Islam and have to turn everything to Christianity/Mormonism etc. But, at least 10 Islamic nations have the death penalty for homosexuality. Can we at least establish that, on a global scale, that that is the number 1 example of what widespread bigotry looks like?

As far as what is taught in mosques in the west. Steyn (and others) have listed countless examples of imams preaching death to homosexuals. I know that you guys can't go beyond "Spock reads mark Steyn." But as long as you can keep your warm and fuzzies towards Islam that is all that matters.

[Spock]

Bob#'s>>>>A major contributor here in California to the Prop 8 campaign (which reversed our Supreme Court's decision legalizing same-sex marriage under the state constitution) was the Mormon Church. That's what widespread bigotry looks like<<<

i know that Mormons are the politically correct target for you guys on Prop 8. However, you forget to mention that African Americans voted overwhelmingly (70%) on the "Mormon" side. I am sure that fact just slipped your mind.

[Spock]

There is one huge fundamental difference between Islam and Mormonism/Christianity-etc-that we all instinctively understand and that should really be a starting point in discussion and comparisons between religions and their practitioners.

Broadway has had a HUGE hit with the satiric play-"The Book of Mormon."

I don't even need to ask when they will do a satiric play called "The Koran." Because we all know that such a production would be a death sentence for all involved.

[Bob Juch]

There is one huge fundamental difference between Islam and Mormonism/Christianity-etc-that we all instinctively understand and that should really be a starting point in discussion and comparisons between religions and their practitioners.

Broadway has had a HUGE hit with the satiric play-"The Book of Mormon."

I don't even need to ask when they will do a satiric play called "The Koran." Because we all know that such a production would be a death sentence for all involved.

Just wait for Monty Python's new film, The Life of Omar.

[Spock]

The following is a link to a 20-minute talk by Sam Harris. Noted atheist and not a fan of Trump(despite the first part of the video). He also obviously leans to the left

Talks a lot about the terminology including Radical Islam/Islamophobia etc.

He has also long been afraid that the political correctness of the left where even minor concerns about radical Islam are labeled as Islamophobic, etc-would lead to the rise of Trump and others as there is nowhere else to take even minor concerns.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auAWT0TNcfg
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

The following long blog post on a blog called "Gates of Vienna" talks about a Muslim cleric in western Australia who advocates the execution of homosexuals.

http://gatesofvienna.net/2016/06/twilig ... he-shmoos/

There are 2 relevant factoids.

Sheik Feizal Clothia is a Muslim cleric in Western Australia.

Here is how the West Australian newspaper has described the sheikh:

"Sheikh Chothia… heads a collection of moderate Muslims known as the Lighthouse Group…"

He is also a prominent member of the Interfaith community.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
However, note that Clothia also wrote a book advocating the execution of homosexuals.

From Chothia’s book Sex and Sexuality in Islam:

>>>"Islam prescribes capital punishment for Homosexuals. While such punishment may seem cruel, they have been instituted to maintain the purity of society and to keep it clean of perverted elements…"<<<<

As the post says

"If this is moderate, imagine what the hard-liners are preaching."

[Bob78164]

If you really want to find organized prejudice and bigotry, Spock, you really need look no further than your nearest Trump rally. Have you seen the posts from the guy who live-Tweeted one? I think my favorite overheard remark was, "Immigrants aren't people, honey." --Bob

[silverscreenselect]

The following long blog post on a blog called "Gates of Vienna" talks about a Muslim cleric in western Australia who advocates the execution of homosexuals.

Spock, I fail to see your point in much of what you've posted here. No one has denied that there are Muslims and Muslim clerics who advocate the death penalty for homosexuality, and that there are Islamic countries where that penalty is on the books, along with similar penalties for adultery and cutting off hands of thieves.

But what is your point? That right wing homophobes in this country aren't all that bad because most of them don't advocate putting gays to death? That Donald Trump is going to get tough with Saudi Arabia and the other middle Eastern counties and get them to clean up their criminal codes?

And I hope you also understand that a big reason that a lot of Muslims from the middle east came to this country wasn't to serve as sleeper jihadists but rather to get away from the type of oppression and bigotry that is present in those countries. They don't want a return to the same type of barbaric "law" they fled in the first place.

[silverscreenselect]

And by the way, do you know who has been a tireless advocate for gay rights and women's rights all over the world, including in these middle Eastern and Islamic countries that have become so dear to your heart in the last week? Hillary Clinton, that's who.

QUESTION: Hello, Secretary Clinton. Thank you so much for speaking to us today. You spoke about the situation in Uganda. Could you please talk to us a little bit more about how the United States can protect the rights of LGBT people in areas where those rights are not respected?

SECRETARY CLINTON: Yes. And first let me say that over this past year, we have elevated into our human rights dialogues and our public statements a very clear message about protecting the rights of the LGBT community worldwide. And we are particularly concerned about some of the specific cases that have come to our attention around the world. There have been organized efforts to kill and maim gays and lesbians in some countries that we have spoken out about, and also conveyed our very strong concerns about to their governments – not that they were governmentally implemented or even that the government was aware of them, but that the governments need to pay much greater attention to the kinds of abuses that we’ve seen in Iraq, for example.

We are deeply concerned about some of the stories coming out of Iran. In large measure, in reaction, we think, to the response to the elections back in June, there have been abuses committed within the detention facilities and elsewhere that we are deeply concerned about. And then the example that I used of a piece of legislation in Uganda which would not only criminalize homosexuality but attach the death penalty to it. We have expressed our concerns directly, indirectly, and we will continue to do so. The bill has not gone through the Ugandan legislature, but it has a lot of public support by various groups, including religious leaders in Uganda. And we view it as a very serious potential violation of human rights.

So it is clear that across the world this is a new frontier in the minds of many people about how we protect the LGBT community, but it is at the top of our list because we see many instances where there is a very serious assault on the physical safety and an increasing effort to marginalize people. And we think it’s important for the United States to stand against that and to enlist others to join us in doing so.

http://www.state.gov/secretary/20092013 ... 133544.htm

[jarnon]

And by the way, do you know who has been a tireless advocate for gay rights and women's rights all over the world, including in these middle Eastern and Islamic countries that have become so dear to your heart in the last week? Hillary Clinton, that's who.

QUESTION: Hello, Secretary Clinton. Thank you so much for speaking to us today. You spoke about the situation in Uganda. Could you please talk to us a little bit more about how the United States can protect the rights of LGBT people in areas where those rights are not respected?

SECRETARY CLINTON: Yes. And first let me say that over this past year, we have elevated into our human rights dialogues and our public statements a very clear message about protecting the rights of the LGBT community worldwide. And we are particularly concerned about some of the specific cases that have come to our attention around the world. There have been organized efforts to kill and maim gays and lesbians in some countries that we have spoken out about, and also conveyed our very strong concerns about to their governments – not that they were governmentally implemented or even that the government was aware of them, but that the governments need to pay much greater attention to the kinds of abuses that we’ve seen in Iraq, for example.

We are deeply concerned about some of the stories coming out of Iran. In large measure, in reaction, we think, to the response to the elections back in June, there have been abuses committed within the detention facilities and elsewhere that we are deeply concerned about. And then the example that I used of a piece of legislation in Uganda which would not only criminalize homosexuality but attach the death penalty to it. We have expressed our concerns directly, indirectly, and we will continue to do so. The bill has not gone through the Ugandan legislature, but it has a lot of public support by various groups, including religious leaders in Uganda. And we view it as a very serious potential violation of human rights.

So it is clear that across the world this is a new frontier in the minds of many people about how we protect the LGBT community, but it is at the top of our list because we see many instances where there is a very serious assault on the physical safety and an increasing effort to marginalize people. And we think it’s important for the United States to stand against that and to enlist others to join us in doing so.

http://www.state.gov/secretary/20092013 ... 133544.htm

The U.S. has nothing to lose by criticizing Iran and Uganda. I hope she's as tough on countries that are helping us fight the terrorists, like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. (Of course, Trump says she'll never go after countries that contribute to the Clinton Foundation.)

[silverscreenselect]

The U.S. has nothing to lose by criticizing Iran and Uganda. I hope she's as tough on countries that are helping us fight the terrorists, like Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. (Of course, Trump says she'll never go after countries that contribute to the Clinton Foundation.)

The speech quoted from came from 2009, when ISIS didn't exist, and it came in the aftermath of efforts to pass anti-gay legislation in Uganda. That legislation did not pass. A later bill that did not include capital punishment did pass in 2013 and led to US sanctions against Uganda. That law was thrown out by the Uganda High Court on a technicality.

[Spock]

There is one huge fundamental difference between Islam and Mormonism/Christianity-etc-that we all instinctively understand and that should really be a starting point in discussion and comparisons between religions and their practitioners.

Broadway has had a HUGE hit with the satiric play-"The Book of Mormon."

I don't even need to ask when they will do a satiric play called "The Koran." Because we all know that such a production would be a death sentence for all involved.

Let's start with a more global question. Am I Islamophobic/Racist/Xenophobic for pointing out that anyone involved in a satiric Broadway production of "The Koran" would be facing a long-term death sentence? Remember, it took them almost a decade to get Charlie Hebdo.

[flockofseagulls104]

The following long blog post on a blog called "Gates of Vienna" talks about a Muslim cleric in western Australia who advocates the execution of homosexuals.

Spock, I fail to see your point in much of what you've posted here. No one has denied that there are Muslims and Muslim clerics who advocate the death penalty for homosexuality, and that there are Islamic countries where that penalty is on the books, along with similar penalties for adultery and cutting off hands of thieves.

But what is your point? That right wing homophobes in this country aren't all that bad because most of them don't advocate putting gays to death? That Donald Trump is going to get tough with Saudi Arabia and the other middle Eastern counties and get them to clean up their criminal codes?

And I hope you also understand that a big reason that a lot of Muslims from the middle east came to this country wasn't to serve as sleeper jihadists but rather to get away from the type of oppression and bigotry that is present in those countries. They don't want a return to the same type of barbaric "law" they fled in the first place.

I'm not sure about Spock's point, but you make my point right here. There are true 'homophobes' just as they are true 'racists'. They are a small minority of people in this country, and they are not exclusive to one side of the political spectrum. Your side of the political spectrum in this country, however, decided a long time ago that pretty much everyone who doesn't espouse their political ideas can be called those epithets freely and without prejudice. And the main stream news media agrees. The political correctness crowd is not interested in civil rights as much as they are political mud slinging. Most of these 'advocacy' groups are political PACS in disguise for the Democrat Party. If they were interested in the well-being of the LBGT 'community' they would be focusing on cultures that truly are harsh and cruel to gay people. Our culture is NOT.

[Spock]

SSS>>>Spock, I fail to see your point in much of what you've posted here. No one has denied that there are Muslims and Muslim clerics who advocate the death penalty for homosexuality,<<<<

Is it your contention that the topic of Muslim clerics (Based in the West-with many of them on welfare) who advocate the death penalty for homosexuality, has been done to death here in a rational manner with no one called an Islamophobe.

Please point me to a discussion here where the topic was raised without your side immediately pivoting to Historical Christianity/Mormonism and Prop 8/ and the Westboro Baptist Church and calling the person who mentioned it an Islamophobe.

I mean I get that we have not discussed Historical Christianity/Mormonism and Prop 8/ and the Westboro Baptist Church quite enough, but there is a fascinating philosophical question raised in the Australia story.

If even a recognized "Moderate" Muslim in Australia is advocating the death penalty for homosexuality, just what the hell is being taught in the mosques/Islamic schools-even here in the US.

Since you treat the subject as ho hum/old news, can you please point me to any liberal websites where they have dealt with this issue in depth.

[Bob78164]

SSS>>>Spock, I fail to see your point in much of what you've posted here. No one has denied that there are Muslims and Muslim clerics who advocate the death penalty for homosexuality,<<<<

Is it your contention that the topic of Muslim clerics (Based in the West-with many of them on welfare) who advocate the death penalty for homosexuality, has been done to death here in a rational manner with no one called an Islamophobe.

Please point me to a discussion here where the topic was raised without your side immediately pivoting to Historical Christianity/Mormonism and Prop 8/ and the Westboro Baptist Church and calling the person who mentioned it an Islamophobe.

I mean I get that we have not discussed Historical Christianity/Mormonism and Prop 8/ and the Westboro Baptist Church quite enough, but there is a fascinating philosophical question raised in the Australia story.

If even a recognized "Moderate" Muslim in Australia is advocating the death penalty for homosexuality, just what the hell is being taught in the mosques/Islamic schools-even here in the US.

Since you treat the subject as ho hum/old news, can you please point me to any liberal websites where they have dealt with this issue in depth.

The point is that by emphasizing the homophobes preaching in the name of Islam without so much as acknowledging that there are equally odious homophobes right here in the United States preaching their hatred in the name of Christianity, you perpetuate the false notion that this problem is unique to Islam, or that Islam is particularly susceptible to it. That's why it matters that for every example of an Islamic bigot you can find, there are lots of examples of Christian bigots who are just as bad.

And by the way, over the last five years, how many mass shootings in the United States have been committed by Christians, and how many by Moslems? --Bob