SCOTUS decides for Constitutional right for gay marriage

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Re: SCOTUS decides for Constitutional right for gay marriage

#51 Post by Jeemie » Fri Jun 26, 2015 5:20 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:Just for those of you who will take it in the wrong way. I am happy for all my gay friends and acquaintances and everyone else who now have the right to get legally married in every state. Congratulations to them!

I am, however, more concerned than ever about the trashing and redefinition of the Constitution, which is the only thing that shields us against tyranny. There are many of us pretentious and egotistic people that are concerned about that. The dissents discussed many of the unintended consequences of this decision, and no matter what you think of me and my and my opinions, these concerns are valid and we need to have a 'conversation' about these concerns, rather than ignoring them and labeling the people that have the concerns as hateful bigots. Or pretentious and egotistic.
Flock- how was this different than when the Supreme Court ruled that interracial marriage could not be made illegal?

At the time of that ruling, states had laws on the books that said it was.
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Re: SCOTUS decides for Constitutional right for gay marriage

#52 Post by silverscreenselect » Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:31 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:
I am, however, more concerned than ever about the trashing and redefinition of the Constitution, which is the only thing that shields us against tyranny.
What part of the Equal Protection clause don't you like? It is part of the Constitution you know. A lot of people died in the Civil War (see another currently popular thread) so that this Amendment would come to pass. I'll list it here for you: "[N]or shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." I threw in a bonus and included the due process clause for you.

I'm just curious what sort of tyranny you think the Constitution is supposed to protect us from. Because it seems to me that a state telling people who they can and can't marry on the basis of sex seems pretty tyrannical, just a law that told people who they could and couldn't marry on the basis of race was.

And I'd be curious to know one legitimate problem you see arising out of this decision. And not just a Chicken Little the sky is falling and doom is upon us type argument but one specific untoward thing you believe might happen as a result of this decision.
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Re: SCOTUS decides for Constitutional right for gay marriage

#53 Post by SpacemanSpiff » Sat Jun 27, 2015 5:16 am

And, following up on my earlier comment, it seems Judge Roy Moore is, well, being Judge Roy Moore.

For those not familiar with him, this is the Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court (an elected position); he's been impeached and removed previously because he thought his opinions superseded higher court rulings (regarding a Ten Commandments monument he had placed in the courthouse and refused to remove), but subsequently reelected.

http://www.al.com/news/birmingham/index ... cart_river
Southern Poverty Law Center President Richard Cohen, whose group has fought in court for gay marriage rights in Alabama, believes Moore also laid the ground work Friday for defying the U.S. Supreme Court's ruling on gay marriage.

Cohen cited Moore's dissent in an Alabama Supreme Court opinion issued a few hours after the U.S. Supreme Court issued its gay marriage decision.

The dissent was in the case of American Bankers Insurance Company of Florida vs. Gladys Tellis. In that case Tellis and others had sued the insurance company regarding coverage. A trial court judge denied the insurance company's request to send the matter to arbitration. The insurance company appealed that ruling to the Alabama Supreme Court, which today reversed the lower court's ruling.

Cohen stated that Moore in the dissent "made the unprecedented claim that he was not bound by decisions of the U.S. Supreme Court that conflict with his view of the U.S. Constitution."
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Re: SCOTUS decides for Constitutional right for gay marriage

#54 Post by littlebeast13 » Sat Jun 27, 2015 6:53 am

I now regret having ignored this thread all day yesterday... it's been high comedy. Plus, I think I may have actually learned a few things...

lb13

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Re: SCOTUS decides for Constitutional right for gay marriage

#55 Post by elwoodblues » Sat Jun 27, 2015 10:38 am

littlebeast13 wrote:I now regret having ignored this thread all day yesterday... it's been high comedy. Plus, I think I may have actually learned a few things...

lb13
For you I guess this just doubles the number of people you are not going to marry.

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Re: SCOTUS decides for Constitutional right for gay marriage

#56 Post by BackInTex » Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:10 am

elwoodblues wrote:
littlebeast13 wrote:I now regret having ignored this thread all day yesterday... it's been high comedy. Plus, I think I may have actually learned a few things...

lb13
For you I guess this just doubles the number of people you are not going to marry.
O.K. That is actually pretty funny. It would make a good stand-up comic line for being a good reason to oppose gay marriage.
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Re: SCOTUS decides for Constitutional right for gay marriage

#57 Post by mellytu74 » Sat Jun 27, 2015 11:55 am

What yesterday means ....

My cousin can get survivor benefits if something happens to her partner of 40 years, no matter where they are living.

Ditto for a couple of friends from college (whom I met at The Newman Center, Catholic club on secular campuses across America) and a former co-worker -- every one of them in a committed relationship for many years.

I am happy for them.

I don't think it forces any religious institution to marry a gay couple or bless a gay marriage. I don't think it makes anyone a threat to traditional marriage.

Obviously, YMMV on this (and in some cases certainly does) but I love the people I love and that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

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Re: SCOTUS decides for Constitutional right for gay marriage

#58 Post by Bob Juch » Sat Jun 27, 2015 12:11 pm

elwoodblues wrote:
littlebeast13 wrote:I now regret having ignored this thread all day yesterday... it's been high comedy. Plus, I think I may have actually learned a few things...

lb13
For you I guess this just doubles the number of people you are not going to marry.
As Woody Allen said, "Being bisexual doubles your chance of a date Saturday night."
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Re: SCOTUS decides for Constitutional right for gay marriage

#59 Post by elwoodblues » Sat Jun 27, 2015 2:48 pm

Here is the list of people who are adversely affected by this decision:

1. Gay people who don't want to get married but their partner does.

End of list

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Re: SCOTUS decides for Constitutional right for gay marriage

#60 Post by Beebs52 » Sat Jun 27, 2015 5:13 pm

Here's a question vis a vis the Woody Allen quote, if two bisexuals, one man and one woman, want to marry, is it same sex marriage, and if so, which one?
Well, then

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Re: SCOTUS decides for Constitutional right for gay marriage

#61 Post by TheConfessor » Sat Jun 27, 2015 6:46 pm

Beebs52 wrote:Here's a question vis a vis the Woody Allen quote, if two bisexuals, one man and one woman, want to marry, is it same sex marriage, and if so, which one?
You answered your own question. "One man and one woman." Your confusion confuses me.

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Re: SCOTUS decides for Constitutional right for gay marriage

#62 Post by Beebs52 » Sat Jun 27, 2015 6:55 pm

TheConfessor wrote:
Beebs52 wrote:Here's a question vis a vis the Woody Allen quote, if two bisexuals, one man and one woman, want to marry, is it same sex marriage, and if so, which one?
You answered your own question. "One man and one woman." Your confusion confuses me.
It was meant as a somewhat joke. Obviously it flopped.
Well, then

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Re: SCOTUS decides for Constitutional right for gay marriage

#63 Post by littlebeast13 » Sat Jun 27, 2015 7:27 pm

elwoodblues wrote:
littlebeast13 wrote:I now regret having ignored this thread all day yesterday... it's been high comedy. Plus, I think I may have actually learned a few things...

lb13
For you I guess this just doubles the number of people you are not going to marry.

I dunno, they say women outnumber men, so maybe slightly less than double.

I can't wait to see the decision on interspecies marriage....

lb13

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Re: SCOTUS decides for Constitutional right for gay marriage

#64 Post by Bob Juch » Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:28 pm

Beebs52 wrote:
TheConfessor wrote:
Beebs52 wrote:Here's a question vis a vis the Woody Allen quote, if two bisexuals, one man and one woman, want to marry, is it same sex marriage, and if so, which one?
You answered your own question. "One man and one woman." Your confusion confuses me.
It was meant as a somewhat joke. Obviously it flopped.
If you had made it two transsexuals it would have made more sense but it still wouldn't have been funny. :P
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Re: SCOTUS decides for Constitutional right for gay marriage

#65 Post by Bob Juch » Sat Jun 27, 2015 9:29 pm

Bob Juch wrote:
Beebs52 wrote:It was meant as a somewhat joke. Obviously it flopped.
If you had made it two transsexuals it would have made more sense but it still wouldn't have been funny. :P
Oh, and nowadays we just call it "marriage".
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Re: SCOTUS decides for Constitutional right for gay marriage

#66 Post by SpacemanSpiff » Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:18 pm

And Judge Roy Moore is, well, being Judge Roy Moore (part 2):

http://www.al.com/news/index.ssf/2015/0 ... t_breaking
Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore said the state supreme court today issued an order that effectively keeps probate judges from issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples for 25 days.

That's the interpretation of Moore, who recused himself.

Moore said in his view the U.S. Supreme Court ruling on Friday ending the gay marriage ban is now stalled in Alabama.

Parties have 25 days in which to contest the U.S. Supreme Court ruling before it becomes a mandate, Moore said. The Alabama Supreme Court will hold a hearing before the 25 days is up to hear petitions in an Alabama Policy Institute lawsuit.
I wonder why he recused himself? Maybe he doesn't want to get impeached again?

I understand Louisiana is doing the same thing. I've decided this is the judicial equivalent of a filibuster, just putting things off.

For those of you who know these things (I certainly don't) -- has there ever been a case where contesting a US Supreme Court decision made a difference? Or is it just a case of grandstanding (a la George Wallace in the door at Foster Auditorium at the University of Alabama -- which was more a case of calculated political theater - by both Wallace and the Kennedys - than a real attempt to prevent integration)?
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Re: SCOTUS decides for Constitutional right for gay marriage

#67 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:57 pm

Apparently, in the case of making DOMA unconstitutional, the following argument was made:
DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of
persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment. Pp. 13–26.
(a) By history and tradition the definition and regulation of marriage
has been treated as being within the authority and realm of the
separate States. Congress has enacted discrete statutes to regulate
the meaning of marriage in order to further federal policy, but
DOMA, with a directive applicable to over 1,000 federal statutes and
the whole realm of federal regulations, has a far greater reach. Its
operation is also directed to a class of persons that the laws of New
York, and of 11 other States, have sought to protect. Assessing the
validity of that intervention requires discussing the historical and
traditional extent of state power and authority over marriage.
Subject to certain constitutional guarantees, see, e.g., Loving v.
Virginia, 388 U. S. 1, “regulation of domestic relations” is “an area
that has long been regarded as a virtually exclusive province of the
States,” Sosna v. Iowa, 419 U. S. 393, 404. The significance of state
responsibilities for the definition and regulation of marriage dates to
the Nation’s beginning; for “when the Constitution was adopted the
common understanding was that the domestic relations of husband
and wife and parent and child were matters reserved to the States,”

Ohio ex rel. Popovici v. Agler, 280 U. S. 379, 383–384. Marriage laws
may vary from State to State, but they are consistent within each
State.
DOMA rejects this long-established precept. The State’s decision
to give this class of persons the right to marry conferred upon them a
dignity and status of immense import. But the Federal Government
uses the state-defined class for the opposite purpose—to impose restrictions
and disabilities. The question is whether the resulting injury
and indignity is a deprivation of an essential part of the liberty
protected by the Fifth Amendment, since what New York treats as
alike the federal law deems unlike by a law designed to injure the
same class the State seeks to protect. New York’s actions were a
proper exercise of its sovereign authority. They reflect both the
community’s considered perspective on the historical roots of the institution
of marriage and its evolving understanding of the meaning
of equality.
The same 5 justices who signed their name to that opinion now somehow believe the federal government has the power to define marriage for all 50 states. It seems to me that the court is more interested in politics than interpreting the Constitution, if they can make contradictory rulings like this two years apart. That's my concern, and the concern of Justices Scalia, Thomas and Alito, as well as millions of other people. It is frightening that we are not ruled by the law, but by the political winds of the day and the personal opinions of 5 old unelected lawyers appointed for life. You and I may agree that the result is beneficial, but what happens when the political winds shift and the old lawyers are of a different opinion?


(And for SSS, yes I heard this from Rush while I was in my car. I guess it is an invalid point because he made it.)
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Re: SCOTUS decides for Constitutional right for gay marriage

#68 Post by BackInTex » Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:03 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote: The same 5 justices who signed their name to that opinion now somehow believe the federal government has the power to define marriage for all 50 states. It seems to me that the court is more interested in politics than interpreting the Constitution, if they can make contradictory rulings like this two years apart. That's my concern, and the concern of Justices Scalia, Thomas and Alito, as well as millions of other people. It is frightening that we are not ruled by the law, but by the political winds of the day and the personal opinions of 5 old unelected lawyers appointed for life. You and I may agree that the result is beneficial, but what happens when the political winds shift and the old lawyers are of a different opinion?


(And for SSS, yes I heard this from Rush while I was in my car. I guess it is an invalid point because he made it.)
What those celebrating this opinion should fear is that it and others can now be just as easily reversed, the Federal Government operating outside of the checks and balances.
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Re: SCOTUS decides for Constitutional right for gay marriage

#69 Post by silverscreenselect » Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:06 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:The same 5 justices who signed their name to that opinion now somehow believe the federal government has the power to define marriage for all 50 states.
No, the same five justices who found the Defense of Marriage Act unconstitutional found various state laws unconstitutional for pretty much the same reasons. That seems very clear to me, although perhaps Rush had too much Oxy this morning and his thinking was even more off center than usual.

There is a huge difference between Congress adopting a law that pre-empts state law and federal judges making a ruling that a state law violates the Constitution. The Federal Courts have had power to do the latter since the days of Marbury v. Madison back when Thomas Jefferson was President.
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Re: SCOTUS decides for Constitutional right for gay marriage

#70 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:08 pm

Before you jump all over me, I see that it references Loving as an exception. But the decision totally ignores the views of those who have voted and support the definition of marriage as between 1 man and 1 woman. Who defines what constitutes a protected class of people? Can that definition change over time?
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Re: SCOTUS decides for Constitutional right for gay marriage

#71 Post by earendel » Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:09 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:Apparently, in the case of making DOMA unconstitutional, the following argument was made:
DOMA is unconstitutional as a deprivation of the equal liberty of
persons that is protected by the Fifth Amendment. Pp. 13–26.
(a) By history and tradition the definition and regulation of marriage
has been treated as being within the authority and realm of the
separate States. Congress has enacted discrete statutes to regulate
the meaning of marriage in order to further federal policy, but
DOMA, with a directive applicable to over 1,000 federal statutes and
the whole realm of federal regulations, has a far greater reach. Its
operation is also directed to a class of persons that the laws of New
York, and of 11 other States, have sought to protect. Assessing the
validity of that intervention requires discussing the historical and
traditional extent of state power and authority over marriage.
Subject to certain constitutional guarantees, see, e.g., Loving v.
Virginia, 388 U. S. 1, “regulation of domestic relations” is “an area
that has long been regarded as a virtually exclusive province of the
States,” Sosna v. Iowa, 419 U. S. 393, 404. The significance of state
responsibilities for the definition and regulation of marriage dates to
the Nation’s beginning; for “when the Constitution was adopted the
common understanding was that the domestic relations of husband
and wife and parent and child were matters reserved to the States,”

Ohio ex rel. Popovici v. Agler, 280 U. S. 379, 383–384. Marriage laws
may vary from State to State, but they are consistent within each
State.
DOMA rejects this long-established precept. The State’s decision
to give this class of persons the right to marry conferred upon them a
dignity and status of immense import. But the Federal Government
uses the state-defined class for the opposite purpose—to impose restrictions
and disabilities. The question is whether the resulting injury
and indignity is a deprivation of an essential part of the liberty
protected by the Fifth Amendment, since what New York treats as
alike the federal law deems unlike by a law designed to injure the
same class the State seeks to protect. New York’s actions were a
proper exercise of its sovereign authority. They reflect both the
community’s considered perspective on the historical roots of the institution
of marriage and its evolving understanding of the meaning
of equality.
The same 5 justices who signed their name to that opinion now somehow believe the federal government has the power to define marriage for all 50 states. It seems to me that the court is more interested in politics than interpreting the Constitution, if they can make contradictory rulings like this two years apart. That's my concern, and the concern of Justices Scalia, Thomas and Alito, as well as millions of other people. It is frightening that we are not ruled by the law, but by the political winds of the day and the personal opinions of 5 old unelected lawyers appointed for life. You and I may agree that the result is beneficial, but what happens when the political winds shift and the old lawyers are of a different opinion?
I read the opinion and the dissents, and although IANAL, it seems to me that the dissenters would have held the same opinions had they been on the Court when Loving vs. Virginia was decided, since there were states where interracial marriage was allowed and states where it wasn't. By their logic Loving was incorrectly decided. I also note that the justices on both sides of the case refer to "traditional marriage" as between 2 individuals. However the history of marriage is much more complicated than that - polygamy was practiced in the Bible (see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, et. al.) and elsewhere in the world as well.
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Re: SCOTUS decides for Constitutional right for gay marriage

#72 Post by silverscreenselect » Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:09 pm

BackInTex wrote: What those celebrating this opinion should fear is that it and others can now be just as easily reversed, the Federal Government operating outside of the checks and balances.
You mean the way the Supreme Court threw out the Chicago gun control ordinances in McDonald v. City of Chicago? I doubt you got too upset about the Supreme Court decision in that case.
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Re: SCOTUS decides for Constitutional right for gay marriage

#73 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:11 pm

That seems very clear to me, although perhaps Rush had too much Oxy this morning and his thinking was even more off center than usual.
With that sentence, you invalidate your whole response.
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Re: SCOTUS decides for Constitutional right for gay marriage

#74 Post by SpacemanSpiff » Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:26 pm

OK, now I remember why Judge Roy Moore "recused" himself. Potential personal gain.

The Foundation for Moral Law, a non-profit which the Judge founded and once headed, is run by his wife. And it rakes in big bucks on issues like this.
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Re: SCOTUS decides for Constitutional right for gay marriage

#75 Post by wbtravis007 » Mon Jun 29, 2015 1:35 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:
That seems very clear to me, although perhaps Rush had too much Oxy this morning and his thinking was even more off center than usual.
With that sentence, you invalidate your whole response.
When you pledged way back when that if Rush were to hire a lawyer re: the Oxy stuff you would never listen to him again, you demonstrated that you were not a credible or mature or serious-minded person.

And then he did and you did, further proving that.

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