I'll believe its a crisis when peoples start acting

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Jeemie
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Re: I'll believe its a crisis when peoples start a

#76 Post by Jeemie » Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:56 am

silverscreenselect wrote:
BackInTex wrote: O.K. So what you are saying is that women should not get mamograms until they feel a lump. People shouldn't ever get a colonoscopy until they start pooping blood.
There's a general consensus on what tests are and are not needed. If something should be done on a periodic basis like a mammogram, there's no reason it has to be done the same day or week that a patient visits the doctor. If Mrs. SSS visits a doctor for her checkup on January 1 and gets a mammogram on June 1 every year, then she's gotten the same level of treatment as if she had them the same day.

And I know you're going to say, well what if there was a problem that wasn't diagnosed etc. etc. Well what if there's a problem that a Jan 1 mammogram wouldn't have caught but a June 1 mammogram did catch? It all evens out.

Quite frankly, if patients had to foot the full bill for "routine" tests, they would spend a lot more time asking doctors if a particular test was really needed and would wind up ordering a lot less of these tests.

If better planning allows for more efficient scheduling of routine periodic tests, in cases in which there is no indication of an immediate problem, that's a sign of good, efficient management, not bad medical care.
This won't change until doctors start getting compensated for results rather than treatment.

A doctor shouldn't get paid every time he orders you to get an MRI.

But in the end, you are right- if patients actually footed more of the bill upfront, they would choose their care more wisely.
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Re: I'll believe its a crisis when peoples start a

#77 Post by BackInTex » Sat Aug 01, 2009 9:06 am

Jeemie wrote:But in the end, you are right- if patients actually footed more of the bill upfront, they would choose their care more wisely.
Thus, why universal healthcare will bankrupt us.
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
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Re: I'll believe its a crisis when peoples start a

#78 Post by hf_jai » Sat Aug 01, 2009 11:16 am

Thousandaire wrote:
hf_jai wrote:[snip]Finally, let's not forget that single-payer is currently off the table, so we're still having only a hypothetical discussion. It really has no bearing on the health care reform being debated in Congress.
Oh, really?

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/ ... ystem.html
The subject of the article to which you link is also incorrect. I watched the video. Frank didn't say a public option WOULD lead to single payer, he said it COULD lead to single payer. And the reason he thinks that it could is that if a public option works well and becomes popular, then people might support expanding that option, perhaps ultimately to single payer.

Which confirms the suspicion that the biggest problem conservatives have with health insurance reform is that it will work too well.

That said, quoting Frank to prove that single payer is a near-term possibility is about like quoting DeMint to prove that there is no possibility that the system will change at all. Either one is at the extreme of his respective party's representation in Congress and neither one has the support to get his way.

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Re: I'll believe its a crisis when peoples start a

#79 Post by hf_jai » Sat Aug 01, 2009 11:19 am

BackInTex wrote:
Jeemie wrote:But in the end, you are right- if patients actually footed more of the bill upfront, they would choose their care more wisely.
Thus, why universal healthcare will bankrupt us.
No, because having a significant percentage of the population who are not getting necessary tests such as mammograms is much more expensive to all of us in the long run.

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Re: I'll believe its a crisis when peoples start a

#80 Post by Bob78164 » Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:28 pm

BackInTex wrote:Back to your comments. Not all, and probably not most, doctors order tests to pad their wallets. Doctors do not get a cent (at least the ethical ones) from tests they prescribe if that test is done at another facility.
This isn't my field, but I believe something known as the "Stark Law" would make it illegal for them to do so. --Bob
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Re: I'll believe its a crisis when peoples start a

#81 Post by themanintheseersuckersuit » Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:52 am

hf_jai wrote: No, because having a significant percentage of the population who are not getting necessary tests such as mammograms is much more expensive to all of us in the long run.
I wish it were as simple as that, but there is some doubt that widespread screening mammograms and colonoscopy are money savers or actually affect long term survival rates.
Suitguy is not bitter.

feels he represents the many educated and rational onlookers who believe that the hysterical denouncement of lay scepticism is both unwarranted and counter-productive

The problem, then, is that such calls do not address an opposition audience so much as they signal virtue. They talk past those who need convincing. They ignore actual facts and counterargument. And they are irreparably smug.

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Re: I'll believe its a crisis when peoples start a

#82 Post by hf_jai » Tue Aug 04, 2009 11:58 am

themanintheseersuckersuit wrote:
hf_jai wrote: No, because having a significant percentage of the population who are not getting necessary tests such as mammograms is much more expensive to all of us in the long run.
I wish it were as simple as that, but there is some doubt that widespread screening mammograms and colonoscopy are money savers or actually affect long term survival rates.
I'd have to see some verifiable documentation in order to accept that, since I have never heard of a SINGLE doctor who doesn't recommend routine mammograms after about the age of 40, and earlier where there's a family history. And I also have never heard of a SINGLE health insurance company who doesn't automatically pay for them, which is something they would probably not do if they didn't think it would save them money in the long run.

Personally, and anecdotal as it may be, I know for a fact that my mammogram affected both my long-term survival because my cancer was detected a long time before I would have noticed any kind of lump, assuming I ever would have. It also lowered the cost of my treatment because all that was needed was a fairly simple surgery (ok, two of 'em, but that was the surgeon's being extra sure she got the entire malignancy) and a few radiation treatments. No chemo, no hospitalization, and no real worry that it had spread to any other organs.

But then, you can always find a "scientist" who will provide "evidence" for any politically convenient conclusion you want to draw. As we have discussed before.

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Re: I'll believe its a crisis when peoples start acting

#83 Post by themanintheseersuckersuit » Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:48 pm

If you are really interested The Last Well Person: How to Stay Well Despite the Health-Care System by Nortin Hadler

http://www.amazon.com/Last-Well-Person- ... t_ep_dpi_2
Suitguy is not bitter.

feels he represents the many educated and rational onlookers who believe that the hysterical denouncement of lay scepticism is both unwarranted and counter-productive

The problem, then, is that such calls do not address an opposition audience so much as they signal virtue. They talk past those who need convincing. They ignore actual facts and counterargument. And they are irreparably smug.

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Re: I'll believe its a crisis when peoples start acting

#84 Post by hf_jai » Tue Aug 04, 2009 5:29 pm

themanintheseersuckersuit wrote:If you are really interested The Last Well Person: How to Stay Well Despite the Health-Care System by Nortin Hadler

http://www.amazon.com/Last-Well-Person- ... t_ep_dpi_2
The text of the book is available at http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=w ... W0P49JhQzA

I read the chapter on breast cancer and I believe you are taking Dr Hadler's findings a little out of context. He is not against all mammography screening. In fact, he specifically says, "...the credo today is 'early detection, hence early cure.' That belief seems sensible, even incontrovertible." But then he goes on to make certain provisos, mostly to the effect that some cancers don't need to be detected because they don't need to be treated, that the patient (esp older patients) will die of something else first. That strikes me as a typically male opinion, but I didn't read his chapter on prostate cancer.

Fwiw, I also googled the good doctor and find that he wholeheartedly endorses Obama's appointment of Francis Collins as NIH Director, so he must not be too upset with the direction the administration is taking with ref to the nation's health.
http://www.healthbeatblog.com/2009/07/d ... e-nih.html

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Re: I'll believe its a crisis when peoples start acting

#85 Post by hf_jai » Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:29 pm

I would also add that just because one person, no matter how well credentialed, writes a book, that doesn't mean that "some doubt" of any significance exists in the medical community as a whole. That's not the way science works. I don't see doctors all over the country standing up and saying, "My God, we've been doing it wrong for the last 40 years!" Perhaps Dr Hadler is on to something -- he seems to have some valuable ideas -- but public health policy should be based on the mainstream of scientific opinion, not a book written by a university professor.

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Re: I'll believe its a crisis when peoples start acting

#86 Post by themanintheseersuckersuit » Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:38 pm

hf_jai wrote:I would also add that just because one person, no matter how well credentialed, writes a book, that doesn't mean that "some doubt" of any significance exists in the medical community as a whole. That's not the way science works. I don't see doctors all over the country standing up and saying, "My God, we've been doing it wrong for the last 40 years!" Perhaps Dr Hadler is on to something -- he seems to have some valuable ideas -- but public health policy should be based on the mainstream of scientific opinion, not a book written by a university professor.
If you read the chapter on mammograms you will see that Dr. Hadler makes an argument that mammogram policy is set more by politicians than science.
Suitguy is not bitter.

feels he represents the many educated and rational onlookers who believe that the hysterical denouncement of lay scepticism is both unwarranted and counter-productive

The problem, then, is that such calls do not address an opposition audience so much as they signal virtue. They talk past those who need convincing. They ignore actual facts and counterargument. And they are irreparably smug.

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Re: I'll believe its a crisis when peoples start acting

#87 Post by Beebs52 » Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:35 pm

I only have my own personal anecdotal experience vis a vis breast cancer. Mine was caught with a mammogram, unpalpable, lumpectomied and radiated out with follow up for five years with medication. I have/had good insurance. I missed almost two years of mammos before it was discovered, but I was also 50 at the time of discovery. No history in the family.

I had been fairly religious about getting mammos after the age of forty.

I guess my point is, I'm happy with the insurance we've had throughout several iterations of employers. Yes, I could have waited another five years without a mammo and had an actual huge mass taken out and then undergone chemo and maybe my mortality rate would be the same. I don't know. I'm seven years out right now. I also have pre-cancer crap in the other breast. I'm down to a regular mammo each year now.

I think, considering the small size of my original mass and the possible weirdness of the other stuff on the other side, with governmental sorts directing when and how I have detection, I might be screwed at some point. I think the MRI's I had to reinforce what the microcalcifications had/hadn't done wouldn't have been done. Who knows. Maybe they were useless. But, I simply do not trust some undereducated federal government employed drone to tell me what is necessary.

And, I do think that's what it would come down to.
Well, then

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Re: I'll believe its a crisis when peoples start a

#88 Post by Beebs52 » Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:38 pm

Jeemie wrote:
silverscreenselect wrote:
BackInTex wrote: O.K. So what you are saying is that women should not get mamograms until they feel a lump. People shouldn't ever get a colonoscopy until they start pooping blood.
There's a general consensus on what tests are and are not needed. If something should be done on a periodic basis like a mammogram, there's no reason it has to be done the same day or week that a patient visits the doctor. If Mrs. SSS visits a doctor for her checkup on January 1 and gets a mammogram on June 1 every year, then she's gotten the same level of treatment as if she had them the same day.

And I know you're going to say, well what if there was a problem that wasn't diagnosed etc. etc. Well what if there's a problem that a Jan 1 mammogram wouldn't have caught but a June 1 mammogram did catch? It all evens out.

Quite frankly, if patients had to foot the full bill for "routine" tests, they would spend a lot more time asking doctors if a particular test was really needed and would wind up ordering a lot less of these tests.

If better planning allows for more efficient scheduling of routine periodic tests, in cases in which there is no indication of an immediate problem, that's a sign of good, efficient management, not bad medical care.
This won't change until doctors start getting compensated for results rather than treatment.
A doctor shouldn't get paid every time he orders you to get an MRI.

But in the end, you are right- if patients actually footed more of the bill upfront, they would choose their care more wisely.
That bolded part is totally unpredictable and unrealistic. Seriously.
Well, then

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Re: I'll believe its a crisis when peoples start a

#89 Post by Jeemie » Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:50 pm

Beebs52 wrote:That bolded part is totally unpredictable and unrealistic. Seriously.
Maybe it was a little harsh.

However, too many times a doctor doesn't diagnose...he just sends you for a bunch of tests and/or gives you a pill.

That's what being paid by the head gets you.
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Re: I'll believe its a crisis when peoples start a

#90 Post by Beebs52 » Tue Aug 04, 2009 7:54 pm

Jeemie wrote:
Beebs52 wrote:That bolded part is totally unpredictable and unrealistic. Seriously.
Maybe it was a little harsh.

However, too many times a doctor doesn't diagnose...he just sends you for a bunch of tests and/or gives you a pill.

That's what being paid by the head gets you.
I do agree about that with certain doctors. Especially with elderly patients and people with mental health issues. I do agree. It's scary. But, that is not the majority of what is going on. The elderly are a lesser percentage of the population and what exactly is A RESULT anyway? What's your timeframe for a result? What's your pain/ability to function/change in certain parameters of bodily functions? How do you define result?
Well, then

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Re: I'll believe its a crisis when peoples start acting

#91 Post by hf_jai » Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:20 pm

Beebs52 wrote:I only have my own personal anecdotal experience vis a vis breast cancer. Mine was caught with a mammogram, unpalpable, lumpectomied and radiated out with follow up for five years with medication. I have/had good insurance. I missed almost two years of mammos before it was discovered, but I was also 50 at the time of discovery. No history in the family.

I had been fairly religious about getting mammos after the age of forty.

I guess my point is, I'm happy with the insurance we've had throughout several iterations of employers. Yes, I could have waited another five years without a mammo and had an actual huge mass taken out and then undergone chemo and maybe my mortality rate would be the same. I don't know. I'm seven years out right now. I also have pre-cancer crap in the other breast. I'm down to a regular mammo each year now.

I think, considering the small size of my original mass and the possible weirdness of the other stuff on the other side, with governmental sorts directing when and how I have detection, I might be screwed at some point. I think the MRI's I had to reinforce what the microcalcifications had/hadn't done wouldn't have been done. Who knows. Maybe they were useless. But, I simply do not trust some undereducated federal government employed drone to tell me what is necessary.

And, I do think that's what it would come down to.
And yet, no one on Medicare has afaik been denied a mammogram under circumstances similar to yours (and mine). Nor has anyone covered by TriCare been turned down -- before my husband went to work for the railroad, TriCare paid for every test my doctor asked for.

But under our current system, there are millions who are not tested because they are not insured or not insurable. I guess you think that's ok as long as you've got yours? What do you think will happen if your insurance company drops you if you become a bad risk?

And as someone who used to work for the federal government, I can assure you we are not undereducated drones. In fact, most people who work for the government are better educated than those who do the administrative grunt work at an insurance agency.
themanintheseersuckersuit wrote:
hf_jai wrote:I would also add that just because one person, no matter how well credentialed, writes a book, that doesn't mean that "some doubt" of any significance exists in the medical community as a whole. That's not the way science works. I don't see doctors all over the country standing up and saying, "My God, we've been doing it wrong for the last 40 years!" Perhaps Dr Hadler is on to something -- he seems to have some valuable ideas -- but public health policy should be based on the mainstream of scientific opinion, not a book written by a university professor.
If you read the chapter on mammograms you will see that Dr. Hadler makes an argument that mammogram policy is set more by politicians than science.
I don't believe that's an accurate description of what he is saying. If it is what he meant, I don't agree. I know of no politicians who are forcing any private insurers to provide mammograms, and I doubt it's a matter of internal politics within the medical community. Insurers pay for mammograms because it is cheaper than paying for extensive cancer treatments. And so will the government, if it ever comes to that.

But even if it is what he's saying, he's not the first "lone voice" against the mainstream to claim he is not being listened to because of politics. VERY seldom does it turn out to be true.

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Re: I'll believe its a crisis when peoples start acting

#92 Post by Beebs52 » Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:36 pm

And yet, no one on Medicare has afaik been denied a mammogram under circumstances similar to yours (and mine). Nor has anyone covered by TriCare been turned down -- before my husband went to work for the railroad, TriCare paid for every test my doctor asked for.

But under our current system, there are millions who are not tested because they are not insured or not insurable. I guess you think that's ok as long as you've got yours? What do you think will happen if your insurance company drops you if you become a bad risk
?

First off, the majority of our population is insured and if employed will carry Cobra, totally expensive if you lose your job, but, that's the way it is. There are , actually, alternatives for people out there. My company isn't going to drop me for a pre-existing condition. Most companies don't, if you're employed and get re-employed. That's the NON governmental reality. That's a weird red herring. Insurance is NOT a right. It is a COMMODITY. It's like water or electricity or owning a car or a house. It IS NOT A RIGHT.

I would like my water, electricity and property taxes to be paid by the government. They are WAY more expensive than my insurance.

And as someone who used to work for the federal government, I can assure you we are not undereducated drones. In fact, most people who work for the government are better educated than those who do the administrative grunt work at an insurance agency.

I am not blanketly calling all government employees drones. But, I will gladly put up private insurance company employees (I was a fucking claim adjuster for four years, so don't even go there what with the majority of creeps who DO play the system) against ANY governmental employee.
Well, then

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Re: I'll believe its a crisis when peoples start acting

#93 Post by Beebs52 » Tue Aug 04, 2009 8:41 pm

Jai, I know we are on totally opposite ends of this discussion, so I realize it isn't going to come to any sort of reasonable agreement. Having gone through similar health issues It's sort of bittersweet.

I truly believe the government will fuck up any sort of health plan, just as they pretty much do the same to any big sweeping "let's help the people thing".
Well, then

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Re: I'll believe its a crisis when peoples start acting

#94 Post by Thousandaire » Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:40 pm

A mammogram, if you pay for it yourself, costs about $120.00. Certainly less expensive than one year's health insurance. And several organizations (Susan G Komen foundation, Planned Parenthood, CDC etc.) offer free or low-cost mammograms.

If breast cancer is a concern of yours, there is no excuse for not getting a mammogram.

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Re: I'll believe its a crisis when peoples start acting

#95 Post by Beebs52 » Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:59 pm

Thousandaire wrote:A mammogram, if you pay for it yourself, costs about $120.00. Certainly less expensive than one year's health insurance. And several organizations (Susan G Komen foundation, Planned Parenthood, CDC etc.) offer free or low-cost mammograms.

If breast cancer is a concern of yours, there is no excuse for not getting a mammogram.
I don't think that was ever an issue.
Well, then

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Re: I'll believe its a crisis when peoples start acting

#96 Post by themanintheseersuckersuit » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:37 am

Last year, lawmakers excoriated the CEOs of the Big Three automakers for traveling to Washington, D.C., by private jet to attend a hearing about a possible bailout of their companies.
But apparently Congress is not philosophically averse to private air travel: At the end of July, the House approved nearly $200 million for the Air Force to buy three elite Gulfstream jets for ferrying top government officials and Members of Congress.
The Air Force had asked for one Gulfstream 550 jet (price tag: about $65 million) as part of an ongoing upgrade of its passenger air service.
But the House Appropriations Committee, at its own initiative, added to the 2010 Defense appropriations bill another $132 million for two more airplanes and specified that they be assigned to the D.C.-area units that carry Members of Congress, military brass and top government officials.
Because the Appropriations Committee viewed the additional aircraft as an expansion of an existing Defense Department program, it did not treat the money for two more planes as an earmark, and the legislation does not disclose which Member had requested the additional money.
http://www.rollcall.com/issues/55_19/news/37552-1.html
Suitguy is not bitter.

feels he represents the many educated and rational onlookers who believe that the hysterical denouncement of lay scepticism is both unwarranted and counter-productive

The problem, then, is that such calls do not address an opposition audience so much as they signal virtue. They talk past those who need convincing. They ignore actual facts and counterargument. And they are irreparably smug.

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Re: I'll believe its a crisis when peoples start a

#97 Post by Jeemie » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:20 am

Beebs52 wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
Beebs52 wrote:That bolded part is totally unpredictable and unrealistic. Seriously.
Maybe it was a little harsh.

However, too many times a doctor doesn't diagnose...he just sends you for a bunch of tests and/or gives you a pill.

That's what being paid by the head gets you.
I do agree about that with certain doctors. Especially with elderly patients and people with mental health issues. I do agree. It's scary. But, that is not the majority of what is going on. The elderly are a lesser percentage of the population and what exactly is A RESULT anyway? What's your timeframe for a result? What's your pain/ability to function/change in certain parameters of bodily functions? How do you define result?
I was thinking outcomes, like in clinical trials.

For example, you go to a doctor to get treated for depression. There are several well-defined outcome-based surveys that are used for clinical trials endpoints.

Doctor gets reimbursed based on your progress on these surveys.
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Re: I'll believe its a crisis when peoples start a

#98 Post by Beebs52 » Wed Aug 05, 2009 8:48 am

Jeemie wrote:
Beebs52 wrote:
Jeemie wrote:
Maybe it was a little harsh.

However, too many times a doctor doesn't diagnose...he just sends you for a bunch of tests and/or gives you a pill.

That's what being paid by the head gets you.
I do agree about that with certain doctors. Especially with elderly patients and people with mental health issues. I do agree. It's scary. But, that is not the majority of what is going on. The elderly are a lesser percentage of the population and what exactly is A RESULT anyway? What's your timeframe for a result? What's your pain/ability to function/change in certain parameters of bodily functions? How do you define result?
I was thinking outcomes, like in clinical trials.

For example, you go to a doctor to get treated for depression. There are several well-defined outcome-based surveys that are used for clinical trials endpoints.

Doctor gets reimbursed based on your progress on these surveys.
Wow. If one has a relapse would the doc have to pay money back? I like that idea.
Well, then

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Re: I'll believe its a crisis when peoples start a

#99 Post by wintergreen48 » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:10 am

Beebs52 wrote:
Jeemie wrote: I do agree about that with certain doctors. Especially with elderly patients and people with mental health issues. I do agree. It's scary. But, that is not the majority of what is going on. The elderly are a lesser percentage of the population and what exactly is A RESULT anyway? What's your timeframe for a result? What's your pain/ability to function/change in certain parameters of bodily functions? How do you define result?
I was thinking outcomes, like in clinical trials.

For example, you go to a doctor to get treated for depression. There are several well-defined outcome-based surveys that are used for clinical trials endpoints.

Doctor gets reimbursed based on your progress on these surveys.

Wow. If one has a relapse would the doc have to pay money back? I like that idea.

That would be a great result in a lot of areas. Like in the corporate or financial world, where the CEOs and other muckety mucks get huge bonuses for their 'success,' only to have the company go down the tubes a year later. As a shareholder (in any company) I would not have a big problem with CEOs and other muckety mucks getting huge bonuses when they do really well (and 'doing really well' means 'they made a positive impact,' not 'they happened to be in charge at a time when the market was doing really well, so that even if a chimp had been there the stock price would have gone up'), if those same CEOs and other muckety mucks had to PAY IN when they are doing really poorly (and 'doing really poorly' means they screwed something up, not just the entire market collapsed around them-- sometimes, in that situation, success would be measured by the fact that they did things to allow the company to survive, and that may be enough).

I think that this is a problem in a lot of areas: we reward people (with money, with praise, with celebrity, with other things) for (in many cases) really marginal achievement, but too often we do not penalize people for screwing up. Except for the innocent people (like the worker bees in a company who lose their jobs when the big boys screw up: the big boys cruise off with their golden parachutes, while the worker bees hope that they qualify for unemployment compensation).
Innocent, naive and whimsical. And somewhat footloose and fancy-free.

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Re: I'll believe its a crisis when peoples start acting

#100 Post by Thousandaire » Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:36 am

Beebs52 wrote:
Thousandaire wrote:A mammogram, if you pay for it yourself, costs about $120.00. Certainly less expensive than one year's health insurance. And several organizations (Susan G Komen foundation, Planned Parenthood, CDC etc.) offer free or low-cost mammograms.

If breast cancer is a concern of yours, there is no excuse for not getting a mammogram.
I don't think that was ever an issue.
Someone (jai, I think) said above that uninsured people don't get the necessary tests.

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