Whose God

[earendel]

"our works" and "our choices" are not the same things.

t.

To me, a choice is an act; it is something we do, like our works.

Tocque said it is only God who determines who gets into heaven. Then earendel said only those who choose God get into heaven; which makes it partly, at least, up to us. Then tocque said God knows who wll choose Him; which seems to negate free will; something I've understood God gave us.

One thing to keep in mind is that Toque and I may not agree on the particulars - I am a firm Arminian, whereas she may be a Calvinist. So I can only speak for myself (which, after all, is what got this whole thing started, right?). My understanding is that God, knowing all things, knows all things. By that I mean that God knows every possible outcome of everything that happens. To use the chaos theory example God knows which way a random drop of water may run across someone's skin, but knows also what will happen if the drop runs in a different direction. God doesn't dictate the direction, but knows what to expect. Similarly God doesn't program us for heaven or hell, but God knows the outcome of every choice we make, and allows us to experience the consequences of those choices, even to the point of choosing to spend eternity separated from God. (There's more, but I think I'll stop here and wait for responses.)

[Wierd Al Yankovic]

Welcome back my friends to the thread that never ends
We're so happy to offend, come inside, come inside
It is I must confess just a nested quoted mess
You won't get through unless, you move along, move along

Come inside, the fun's about to start
Guaranteed, to blow the Bored apart
Rest assured you'll get get your money's worth
Greatest thread 'bout Heaven Hell and Earth
You've got to read the thread! It'll knock you dead
You've got to read the thread! It'll leave you red

Right before your eyes I'll bring the Lord out of the skies
Make all the BB's rise, hear the cries and the sighs

Come inside the fun's about to start
Guaranteed, to rip your god apart
You've got to read the thread, oh please don't dread
You've got to read the thread, see what they said
Oh

Soon the choir lead with a string of holy beads
Will perform Apostle's Creed, what a screed, what a screed
Next up in the chair, it's the poignant Thousandaire
You know he doesn't care, say a prayer if you dare

Roll up, scroll up, Throw up
Read the thread!

Next up on the bill, we're debating our free will
We will not stop until, we have our fill, so just chill
We'd like it to be known, the opinions that we've shown
Aren't exclusively our own, hear us drone while you moan

Come and read the thread!
Come and read the thread!
Come and read the thread!
Read the threeeeeeaaaadddddd!!!!!!!!

[peacock2121]

BRAVO!!!!!

BRAVO!!!!

[WheresFanny]

I believe that Weird Al might be the first one to actually make sense in this thread.

IMHO, I think.

[Tocqueville3]

"our works" and "our choices" are not the same things.

t.

To me, a choice is an act; it is something we do, like our works.

Tocque said it is only God who determines who gets into heaven. Then earendel said only those who choose God get into heaven; which makes it partly, at least, up to us. Then tocque said God knows who wll choose Him; which seems to negate free will; something I've understood God gave us.

One thing to keep in mind is that Toque and I may not agree on the particulars - I am a firm Arminian, whereas she may be a Calvinist. So I can only speak for myself (which, after all, is what got this whole thing started, right?). My understanding is that God, knowing all things, knows all things. By that I mean that God knows every possible outcome of everything that happens. To use the chaos theory example God knows which way a random drop of water may run across someone's skin, but knows also what will happen if the drop runs in a different direction. God doesn't dictate the direction, but knows what to expect. Similarly God doesn't program us for heaven or hell, but God knows the outcome of every choice we make, and allows us to experience the consequences of those choices, even to the point of choosing to spend eternity separated from God. (There's more, but I think I'll stop here and wait for responses.)

Ear is right. I am a Calvinist. I believe in predestination. I don't want to get into a theological discussion of whose way is the better way to heaven because I really don't have the time to devote to that and it's a discussion that makes my head spin. I could make book recommendations if you want me to.

Ear and I disagree on the details upon which a persons salvation is achieved. Let me just tell you that he certainly knows the bible better than I do. I need to start memorizing scripture better.

I do think that ear and I will find many biblical things we agree on. We certainly like the same hymns and anthems.

[Jeemie]

One thing to keep in mind is that Toque and I may not agree on the particulars - I am a firm Arminian, whereas she may be a Calvinist. So I can only speak for myself (which, after all, is what got this whole thing started, right?). My understanding is that God, knowing all things, knows all things. By that I mean that God knows every possible outcome of everything that happens. To use the chaos theory example God knows which way a random drop of water may run across someone's skin, but knows also what will happen if the drop runs in a different direction. God doesn't dictate the direction, but knows what to expect. Similarly God doesn't program us for heaven or hell, but God knows the outcome of every choice we make, and allows us to experience the consequences of those choices, even to the point of choosing to spend eternity separated from God. (There's more, but I think I'll stop here and wait for responses.)

Did not God create everything?

Did not God create the "matrix" wherein those choices are made?

If He did the above things, He DID, in fact, "program us" to make the choices we make.

The only other alternative is that the "matrix" wherein the choices are made did not come from God...is therefore "more fundamental", shall we say, than God.

And that raises a whole LOAD of other issues.

In a nutshell, the countless arguments between Arminiamism and Calvinism, etc, have evolved in order to make sure that God gets all of the credit, and none of the blame.

[earendel]

One thing to keep in mind is that Toque and I may not agree on the particulars - I am a firm Arminian, whereas she may be a Calvinist. So I can only speak for myself (which, after all, is what got this whole thing started, right?). My understanding is that God, knowing all things, knows all things. By that I mean that God knows every possible outcome of everything that happens. To use the chaos theory example God knows which way a random drop of water may run across someone's skin, but knows also what will happen if the drop runs in a different direction. God doesn't dictate the direction, but knows what to expect. Similarly God doesn't program us for heaven or hell, but God knows the outcome of every choice we make, and allows us to experience the consequences of those choices, even to the point of choosing to spend eternity separated from God. (There's more, but I think I'll stop here and wait for responses.)

Did not God create everything?

Did not God create the "matrix" wherein those choices are made?

If He did the above things, He DID, in fact, "program us" to make the choices we make.

The only other alternative is that the "matrix" wherein the choices are made did not come from God...is therefore "more fundamental", shall we say, than God.

And that raises a whole LOAD of other issues.

In a nutshell, the countless arguments between Arminiamism and Calvinism, etc, have evolved in order to make sure that God gets all of the credit, and none of the blame.

Creating the arena in which choices can be made doesn't predetermine the choice. To use an imperfect example, if I give my child a choice among different food items, I may very well know which one he or she will choose because of my knowledge of the child. But I haven't "made" the child make any of the choices. Beyond that, the result of some of our choices limit the future choices that we can make, so in that sense we are "programming ourselves" into some actions.

I should add that there is a school of theology known as "process theology" that maintains that God is not omnipotent, at least not within the context of the created universe. God can be as surprised by human actions as any of us can be. I don't subscribe to that school, but it is out there.

[ne1410s]

jeemie:

...have evolved in order to make sure that God gets all of the credit, and none of the blame.

This is why Mother Nature was invented too.

[Jeemie]

Creating the arena in which choices can be made doesn't predetermine the choice. To use an imperfect example, if I give my child a choice among different food items, I may very well know which one he or she will choose because of my knowledge of the child. But I haven't "made" the child make any of the choices. Beyond that, the result of some of our choices limit the future choices that we can make, so in that sense we are "programming ourselves" into some actions.

When you created not only the arena, but the "chooser", indeed it does.

Which is why your analogy is imperfect, BTW.

[Rexer25]

In a nutshell, the countless arguments between Arminiamism and Calvinism, etc, have evolved in order to make sure that God gets all of the credit, and none of the blame.

Right. We all know who gets the blame.

[Thousandaire]

In a nutshell, the countless arguments between Arminiamism and Calvinism, etc, have evolved in order to make sure that God gets all of the credit, and none of the blame.

Right. We all know who gets the blame.

Not so fast. According to my wife, it's always my fault. Always.

[WheresFanny]

What if God was one of us?

[littlebeast13]

What if God was one of us?

Just a slob like one of us?

lb13

[WheresFanny]

What if God was one of us?

Just a slob like one of us?

lb13

Hey, it could happen

Spoiler

(and already did, if you subscribe to that certain belief)

.

And wouldn't that surprise the crap out of some people?

[Bob78164]

What if God was one of us?

I thought we already knew that She was Alanis Morissette. --Bob

[peacock2121]

What if God was one of us?

Just a slob like one of us?

lb13

Just a stranger on the bus.

[WheresFanny]

What if God was one of us?

I thought we already knew that She was Alanis Morissette. --Bob

Only because Holly Hunter couldn't do it. (If your link refers to Dogma.)

[Bob78164]

What if God was one of us?

I thought we already knew that She was Alanis Morissette. --Bob

Only because Holly Hunter couldn't do it. (If your link refers to Dogma.)

(It does.) Really? I didn't know that. --Bob

[clem21]

What if God was one of us?

Just a slob like one of us?

lb13

Just a stranger on the bus.

Hey d'you guys remember Joan of Arcadia? That was cute show, I wonder how long ago they canceled it...Did Joan's brother ever walk again? I really need to know this.

[WheresFanny]

I thought we already knew that She was Alanis Morissette. --Bob

Only because Holly Hunter couldn't do it. (If your link refers to Dogma.)

(It does.) Really? I didn't know that. --Bob

If memory serves. That's why the line was in there referencing her character from The Piano. I'm something of a Kevin Smith aficionado (at least until Clerks II, that was horrible).

So if you get on BAM and get a high dollar question on who was originally supposed to play God in Dogma, give me love! (But look it up, first. Because I could be wrong. Ha!)

[WheresFanny]

Just a slob like one of us?

lb13

Just a stranger on the bus.

Hey d'you guys remember Joan of Arcadia? That was cute show, I wonder how long ago they canceled it...Did Joan's brother ever walk again? I really need to know this.

Hey, I'd forgotten all about that show! I only saw a couple episodes, it was one of those shows I always meant to watch, but never did. I really loved the concept, though.

[Bob78164]

Only because Holly Hunter couldn't do it. (If your link refers to Dogma.)

(It does.) Really? I didn't know that. --Bob

If memory serves. That's why the line was in there referencing her character from The Piano. I'm something of a Kevin Smith aficionado (at least until Clerks II, that was horrible).

So if you get on BAM and get a high dollar question on who was originally supposed to play God in Dogma, give me love! (But look it up, first. Because I could be wrong. Ha!)

I love Dogma but I don't remember the line.

I found at least one Web site that says the role was written for her but she turned it down. --Bob

[MarleysGh0st]

Hey d'you guys remember Joan of Arcadia? That was cute show, I wonder how long ago they canceled it...Did Joan's brother ever walk again? I really need to know this.

It ran from September 26, 2003 until April 22, 2005, according to Wikipedia.

They only list the episode titles, not the plot details, as they do for some shows, so I can't answer your question about her brother.

[peacock2121]

Hey d'you guys remember Joan of Arcadia? That was cute show, I wonder how long ago they canceled it...Did Joan's brother ever walk again? I really need to know this.

It ran from September 26, 2003 until April 22, 2005, according to Wikipedia.

They only list the episode titles, not the plot details, as they do for some shows, so I can't answer your question about her brother.

Nope - he never got out of the chair.

[clem21]

Hey d'you guys remember Joan of Arcadia? That was cute show, I wonder how long ago they canceled it...Did Joan's brother ever walk again? I really need to know this.

It ran from September 26, 2003 until April 22, 2005, according to Wikipedia.

They only list the episode titles, not the plot details, as they do for some shows, so I can't answer your question about her brother.

Nope - he never got out of the chair.

Crap. Is that 'cuz it got canceled or because it ended that way?