"Whatever the hell they want" to NATO

[silverscreenselect]

BTW, he was talking to voters, not to 'Mitterand', or whoever biden thinks it might be, dead or alive.

You think he may have been talking to voters but our allies in Europe heard him and they weren't too happy about it.

[Bob78164]

"No, I would not protect you. In fact, I would encourage them to do whatever the Hell they want. You gotta pay." [Emphasis added]

Call me a moron if you want, but what exactly was the metaphor here?

It's worse than you think. Under the NATO Treaty, an attack on one is an attack on all. So Donny was encouraging Russia to attack us. --Bob

[Bob78164]

The 45th President says he would not just allow but encourage Russia "to do whatever the hell they want. You got to pay. You got to pay your bills.” The fact that this is not even the lead story just indicates how de rigeur his most outrageous statements have become.

So he's not only an existential threat to the American democratic system, but also to world stability and peace.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/10/politics ... index.html

It occurs to me that in light of how he's treated vendors and suppliers throughout his career (including his lawyers), Donny is one of the last people on the planet who should complain because he thinks other people need to pay THEIR bills.

Of course, what he's really saying is that these are the tactics -- threatening to walk away and being willing to follow through on that threat -- necessary to get Donny to pay his bills. He knows those tactics really are necessary for him, and he lacks the ability to understand that other people don't behave the same way.

So yeah, I think he means exactly what he says. Anyone who thinks it was anything but literal, or that there will be "adults in the room" to prevent Donny from following through on his threat, is at best kidding themselves. --Bob

[flockofseagulls104]

No one has dared to answer my yes or no question. Deflection, deflection, deflection.

[wbtravis007]

There are no “bills” that are owed by NATO members.

Not sure whether Trump understands that. It might be that he does, but knows that a lot of his supporters don’t (and don’t know what they don’t know), and will be enraged as a result of his efforts to deliberately mislead them.

Whipping the ignorant into a frenzy is his strong suit.

[flockofseagulls104]

I guess these lawmakers don't understand it either. I guess they need to talk to travis. He'll set them straight or else get his feelings hurt. That'll teach em.

[wbtravis007]

I guess these lawmakers don't understand it either. I guess they need to talk to travis. He'll set them straight or else get his feelings hurt. That'll teach em.

Before even clicking on your link I knew that either you hadn’t actually read it or that you didn’t comprehend it or that you didn’t read my post closely enough to get it.

Anyway, after reading it, I’ll stand by my post without corrections.

And, mocking my feelings just makes me know even more that you just don’t care. Which is what really hurts.

I’m really tempted to take flockofsappybutmeanspiritedseagulls off of my prayer list.

I hope it won’t come to that.

[silverscreenselect]

There are no “bills” that are owed by NATO members.

Not sure whether Trump understands that. It might be that he does, but knows that a lot of his supporters don’t (and don’t know what they don’t know), and will be enraged as a result of his efforts to deliberately mislead them.

Whipping the ignorant into a frenzy is his strong suit.

You hit the nail on the head while Trump and Flock are flailing around. NATO has no dues. They don't send out bills like a country club does whereby if you don't pay they can cancel your membership.

After the Cold War ended, many NATO countries reduced military spending considerably. In 2014, after Russia annexed Crimea, they set a goal of spending 2% of their GDP on defense spending. That is 2% of their own money on their own defense, not money paid into some NATO bank account to help pay the upkeep on the NATO headquarters building. There is an administrative fund for that purpose, and everyone has paid what they are supposed to for that.

At that time, only four NATO members met that figure, but that number has increased steadily since then. NATO members defense spending increased under Trump compared to Biden, but it's also increased in 2021 and 2022 under Biden compared to Trump. It's increased steadily every year since 2014, not as a result of Trump's posturing but of a realization of the threat Russia poses. Further, that 2% wasn't an immediate target; the goal was for all NATO countries to meet that figure within 10 years, e.g. by 2024. The number of countries that met that 2% goal has steadily increased as well. From NATO's own website:

The 2014 “Defence Investment Pledge” (DIP) – made by Allies at the 2014 Wales Summit, the first NATO summit held after the illegal annexation of Crimea – established an important baseline by setting the goal of at least 2% of GDP spent on defence by all Allies as a political commitment agreed at the level of Heads of State and Government. As a result of the DIP, European Allies and Canada have invested an extra USD 350 billion since 2014, with eight consecutive years of increased defence spending.

In the aftermath of Russia’s illegal annexation of Crimea, NATO Allies endorsed the Defence Investment Pledge (paragraph 14 of the 2014 Wales Summit Communiqué), which remains to this day the political bedrock of their commitment to increase defence spending. It was carefully worded with the aim of producing results within a decade (by 2024), making the pledge demanding but realistic. It not only set the target of 2% of GDP for defence spending writ large, but also laid down an additional objective for Allies of “spending more than 20% of their defence budgets on major equipment, including related Research & Development” – which is equally important, as it encourages Allies to invest in new defence capabilities. Even with this additional nuance, it quickly became clear that the 2% number was the financial and political benchmark against which Allies’ efforts would be primarily assessed, including in the context of renewed transatlantic squabbles over burden sharing during the Trump presidency.

https://www.nato.int/docu/review/articl ... Heads%20of

The Vilnius summit of 2023 reaffirmed the 2% goal but, significantly, dropped the 2024 target date and did not set a firm date for meeting the goal. This year's summit will be in Washington and will presumably address that issue again. But no matter how they adjust the figure or goal date, it remains just a target or goal, not a contractually binding obligation. The countries that are spending the most on defense are those closest to Russia. But no matter how much Estonia or Latvia spend on their own military, there's no way they could fend off a mass Russian invasion.

The US is obligated under the NATO treaty to come to the aid of any NATO country that is attacked. This provision of the treaty has only been invoked once, after 9/11 when the various NATO countries agreed to come to the aid of the United States and assisted in our original invasion of Afghanistan.

This is what Ronald Reagan had to say about NATO in 1988. I'm no big fan of Reagan, but his talk shows how much the Republican party has backslid at a time when Putin poses an even bigger threat than ever:

The Atlantic alliance is the core of America's foreign policy and of America's own security. Preservation of a peaceful, free, and democratic Europe is essential to the preservation of a peaceful, free, and democratic United States. If our fellow democracies are not secure, we cannot be secure. If you are threatened, we're threatened. If you're not at peace, we cannot be at peace. An attack on you is an attack on us. This is not simply a matter of treaty language, important as treaty language is. It is an enduring reality -- as enduring as the reality that a threat to the security of the State of Maine or New York or California is a threat to the security of all 50 American States. Simply put: An attack on Munich is the same as an attack on Chicago.

Not a word in there about only defending those countries that pay their dues.

[silverscreenselect]

So yeah, I think he means exactly what he says. Anyone who thinks it was anything but literal, or that there will be "adults in the room" to prevent Donny from following through on his threat, is at best kidding themselves. --Bob

One of the biggest checks on Trump during his administration was the fact that he chose a lot of mainstream Republicans for cabinet positions and other significant posts. They sometimes curbed his worst tendencies. This time around, he's learned who is loyal to him and who is not, so you won't find many people in a second Trump administration willing to question anything he does, in public or private.

[kroxquo]

So yeah, I think he means exactly what he says. Anyone who thinks it was anything but literal, or that there will be "adults in the room" to prevent Donny from following through on his threat, is at best kidding themselves. --Bob

One of the biggest checks on Trump during his administration was the fact that he chose a lot of mainstream Republicans for cabinet positions and other significant posts. They sometimes curbed his worst tendencies. This time around, he's learned who is loyal to him and who is not, so you won't find many people in a second Trump administration willing to question anything he does, in public or private.

That is a big reason I fear a second term. The adults in the room who reined him in before will not be allowed in the room.

Also, in his NATO statement, is anyone else disturbed by his use of the word "encourage"? It's not just that he wouldn't protect our allies but would tell Russia to go ahead and attack them. And yes, I think we absolutely should take him at his word.

[flockofseagulls104]

So yeah, I think he means exactly what he says. Anyone who thinks it was anything but literal, or that there will be "adults in the room" to prevent Donny from following through on his threat, is at best kidding themselves. --Bob

One of the biggest checks on Trump during his administration was the fact that he chose a lot of mainstream Republicans for cabinet positions and other significant posts. They sometimes curbed his worst tendencies. This time around, he's learned who is loyal to him and who is not, so you won't find many people in a second Trump administration willing to question anything he does, in public or private.

That is a big reason I fear a second term. The adults in the room who reined him in before will not be allowed in the room.

Also, in his NATO statement, is anyone else disturbed by his use of the word "encourage"? It's not just that he wouldn't protect our allies but would tell Russia to go ahead and attack them. And yes, I think we absolutely should take him at his word.

Yes, all the adults in the room that signed a disinformation document to influence the election, while covering up for their guy and lying about Russian disinformation.
The adults in the room that ran from Afghanistan and left the enemy with billions of dollars of weapons.
The adults that want to give Ukraine billions of more of our dollars when we are extremely in debt already without any plan to end the war.
The adults that don't want to stop an invasion of millions of unvetted people entering and staying in this country.
Yes, krox, those are the ones to trust.

[jarnon]

That's in contrast to President Biden, who usually closes his speeches by saying, "May God protect our troops."

Biden just gave a forceful defense of the Senate bill supporting Ukraine and Israel, telling Speaker Johnson and House Republicans that history is watching whether they stand with America or with Trump. Then he concluded with "May God protect our speakers."

[silverscreenselect]

The adults that want to give Ukraine billions of more of our dollars when we are extremely in debt already without any plan to end the war.

As opposed to Putin's plan to end the war, which is to hope Trump wins the election so he can overrun the rest of Ukraine on his way to Warsaw, Helsinki, and/or the Baltic States while Trump is chiding NATO countries for not paying their dues.

[tlynn78]

The adults that want to give Ukraine billions of more of our dollars when we are extremely in debt already without any plan to end the war.

As opposed to Putin's plan to end the war, which is to hope Trump wins the election so he can overrun the rest of Ukraine on his way to Warsaw, Helsinki, and/or the Baltic States while Trump is chiding NATO countries for not paying their dues.

Are you capable of understanding, at least a little, that the fantasies you spin in your head aren't actually fact? 'Cause I feel like you're not.

[BackInTex]

That's in contrast to President Biden, who usually closes his speeches by saying, "May God protect our troops."

Biden just gave a forceful defense of the Senate bill supporting Ukraine and Israel, telling Speaker Johnson and House Republicans that history is watching whether they stand with America or with Trump. Then he concluded with "May God protect our speakers."

And nothing to protect our country. I guess you can support someone for President that cares a lot about Ukraine and such or someone who cares a alot about our country. But not both. I know my choice.

[silverscreenselect]

I guess you can support someone for President that cares a lot about Ukraine and such or someone who cares a alot about our country. But not both.

With Trump, all you get is someone who cares a lot about himself and keeping his rear end out of jail.

[BackInTex]

I guess you can support someone for President that cares a lot about Ukraine and such or someone who cares a alot about our country. But not both.

With Trump, all you get is someone who cares a lot about himself and keeping his rear end out of jail.

I guess by that we can assume you at least agree with me about Biden.

[flockofseagulls104]

I guess you can support someone for President that cares a lot about Ukraine and such or someone who cares a alot about our country. But not both.

With Trump, all you get is someone who cares a lot about himself and keeping his rear end out of jail.

I guess by that we can assume you at least agree with me about Biden.

Don't matter, the issue. It comes down to trump. Makes it so easy.

[jarnon]

At a recent South Carolina rally, he also mocked Nikki Haley and her husband, who is in the South Carolina National Guard and deployed overseas currently:

Where’s her husband? Oh, he’s away. … What happened to her husband? Where is he? He’s gone.

[tlynn78]

At a recent South Carolina rally, he also mocked Nikki Haley and her husband, who is in the South Carolina National Guard and deployed overseas currently:

Where’s her husband? Oh, he’s away. … What happened to her husband? Where is he? He’s gone.

And yet...

[Bob78164]

That's in contrast to President Biden, who usually closes his speeches by saying, "May God protect our troops."

Biden just gave a forceful defense of the Senate bill supporting Ukraine and Israel, telling Speaker Johnson and House Republicans that history is watching whether they stand with America or with Trump. Then he concluded with "May God protect our speakers."

And nothing to protect our country. I guess you can support someone for President that cares a lot about Ukraine and such or someone who cares a alot about our country. But not both. I know my choice.

John Bolton thinks Donny is dead serious about withdrawing from NATO. He thinks that because he was in the room in 2018 when Donny very nearly did withdraw from NATO.

He also explains that protecting other countries like Ukraine IS protecting America. If we learned nothing else from the 20th Century, we should have learned that ignoring overseas aggression against our allies eventually leads to the war coming here. And if you don't believe that, I suggest a visit to the Arizona memorial. --Bob

[BackInTex]

Biden just gave a forceful defense of the Senate bill supporting Ukraine and Israel, telling Speaker Johnson and House Republicans that history is watching whether they stand with America or with Trump. Then he concluded with "May God protect our speakers."

And nothing to protect our country. I guess you can support someone for President that cares a lot about Ukraine and such or someone who cares a alot about our country. But not both. I know my choice.

John Bolton thinks Donny is dead serious about withdrawing from NATO. He thinks that because he was in the room in 2018 when Donny very nearly did withdraw from NATO.

He also explains that protecting other countries like Ukraine IS protecting America. If we learned nothing else from the 20th Century, we should have learned that ignoring overseas aggression against our allies eventually leads to the war coming here. And if you don't believe that, I suggest a visit to the Arizona memorial. --Bob

Like I say "but not both". Your TDS focus on Trump is blinding you to the ineptness of Biden. Look, neither guy is who I want running the country, but at the end of the day, with the current slate of choices, I choose the one who will let Ukraine die vs the USA. Not that I think Trump will do that. He does a good bluff.

[Bob78164]

And nothing to protect our country. I guess you can support someone for President that cares a lot about Ukraine and such or someone who cares a alot about our country. But not both. I know my choice.

John Bolton thinks Donny is dead serious about withdrawing from NATO. He thinks that because he was in the room in 2018 when Donny very nearly did withdraw from NATO.

He also explains that protecting other countries like Ukraine IS protecting America. If we learned nothing else from the 20th Century, we should have learned that ignoring overseas aggression against our allies eventually leads to the war coming here. And if you don't believe that, I suggest a visit to the Arizona memorial. --Bob

Like I say "but not both". Your TDS focus on Trump is blinding you to the ineptness of Biden. Look, neither guy is who I want running the country, but at the end of the day, with the current slate of choices, I choose the one who will let Ukraine die vs the USA. Not that I think Trump will do that. He does a good bluff.

You've missed my point. Letting Ukraine die would ultimately be fatal to American interests. But I guess that's something you'll refuse to see until we have our own generation's Pearl Harbor.

Your hatred of all things Democratic is blinding you to how well the country has been doing since President Biden was elected. Income inequality is finally starting to close a bit. Real incomes are up across the board. We have finally taken steps to position the country and its economy for leadership in a world that cares about climate change. And until Republicans (and Joe Manchin) blocked it, he substantially lowered child poverty in this country.

But more to the point, America, more than anything else, is an idea of pluralism and tolerance for others. Donny cares nothing for any of that, and if anything sees it as a weakness (as evidence by comments such as his "poisoning the blood" remark), when in fact it is the fundamental source of our strength.

What's going on at the border won't destroy our country. Given a second chance, Donny very well might, or at least turn us into something that has nothing in common with the America I love except its name. --Bob

[silverscreenselect]

What's going on at the border won't destroy our country. Given a second chance, Donny very well might, or at least turn us into something that has nothing in common with the America I love except its name. --Bob

You might also note that when Biden agreed to a bi-partisan plan that was tougher on border immigration than anything we'd seen since well before Trump took office, he tanked it. Don't think voters don't notice. In New York, immigration is a very hot topic right now because of the well publicized case of some migrants assaulting two police officers. Republicans thought that would win the special election for them. It didn't. Democrats won't win the immigration issue with voters, but this election shows they could make it close to even. And without immigration, Republicans have no other issues other than Biden's age.

[tlynn78]

John Bolton thinks Donny is dead serious about withdrawing from NATO. He thinks that because he was in the room in 2018 when Donny very nearly did withdraw from NATO.

He also explains that protecting other countries like Ukraine IS protecting America. If we learned nothing else from the 20th Century, we should have learned that ignoring overseas aggression against our allies eventually leads to the war coming here. And if you don't believe that, I suggest a visit to the Arizona memorial. --Bob

Like I say "but not both". Your TDS focus on Trump is blinding you to the ineptness of Biden. Look, neither guy is who I want running the country, but at the end of the day, with the current slate of choices, I choose the one who will let Ukraine die vs the USA. Not that I think Trump will do that. He does a good bluff.

You've missed my point. Letting Ukraine die would ultimately be fatal to American interests. But I guess that's something you'll refuse to see until we have our own generation's Pearl Harbor.

Your hatred of all things Democratic is blinding you to how well the country has been doing since President Biden was elected. Income inequality is finally starting to close a bit. Real incomes are up across the board. We have finally taken steps to position the country and its economy for leadership in a world that cares about climate change. And until Republicans (and Joe Manchin) blocked it, he substantially lowered child poverty in this country.

But more to the point, America, more than anything else, is an idea of pluralism and tolerance for others. Donny cares nothing for any of that, and if anything sees it as a weakness (as evidence by comments such as his "poisoning the blood" remark), when in fact it is the fundamental source of our strength.

What's going on at the border won't destroy our country. Given a second chance, Donny very well might, or at least turn us into something that has nothing in common with the America I love except its name. --Bob

.."how well the country has been doing since President Biden was elected."??

Did you actually type that with a straight face? You should be confined to the senility thread.