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Re: Black + white = ?
Posted: Fri May 10, 2024 6:08 pm
by flockofseagulls104
Menchem Begin and Bibi Netanyahu:
We will stand by our principles. We will defend them. And, when necessary, we will die for them again, with or without your aid."
doc:
This sounds like exactly the type of person I wouldn’t give aid to.
I can believe that.
Re: Black + white = ?
Posted: Fri May 10, 2024 6:24 pm
by Beebs52
Weyoun wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 10:11 am
flockofseagulls104 wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 9:21 am
Weyoun wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 7:22 am
It is interesting that Bibi can come to our Congress and beg and that’s fine, but if Zelensky does so it is grifting.
Again: constantly bombing Gazans does not actually serve a useful end to American foreign policy, unless you are the sort of bigot who thinks that killing every Arab/Muslim should be what our foreign policy is all about.
*Lessons From History:* In 1982, Senator Joe Biden warned Prime Minister Menachem Begin that he would seek to stop aid to Israel if the Israeli government did not accede to his demands regarding Israeli settlements. Begin reportedly replied "Don't threaten us with cutting off aid to give up our principles. I'm not a Jew with trembling knees. I am a proud Jew with 3,700 years of civilized history. Nobody came to our aid when we were dying in the gas chambers and ovens. Nobody came to our aid when we were striving to create our country. We paid for it. We fought for it. We died for it. We will stand by our principles. We will defend them. And, when necessary, we will die for them again, with or without your aid."
This sounds like exactly the type of person I wouldn’t give aid to. If they’re willing to burn it all down to defend themselves, I understand that, but that doesn’t mean we have to go down with them.
And that’s not what your following. Israel can do whatever it wants - that doesn’t mean we have to support them every single time.
I don't think we will go down with them. Unless Hamas, Hezbollah and Iran are legitimized, in which case we're toast, too. Forget all the other splinter groups.
Re: Black + white = ?
Posted: Sat May 11, 2024 7:09 am
by Weyoun
[youtube][/youtube]Another 150,000 people are about to be displaced from their homes. No closer to free the hostages.
I know, I know, “they voted for this.”
Flock still hasn’t explained why it is in our *national interest* to support the displacement of 150,000 civilians.
One thing I’ve noticed about the folks who crow “Uniparty!” is that they are really just far right, fascist radicals.
The Uniparty! does not apply to healthcare, where they’re happy with corporations and cabals, raising prices on them and denying services.
(Another example comes with pharmaceutical companies and vaccines. They are front and center of all sorts of crazy conspiracy theories, but when one gets to the day-to-day runs of the healthcare system, insurance companies and hospitals, they’re allowed to manipulate and even scam people all they want. The same people who are anti-vaccine seem to consistently be in favor of a healthcare system where there’s no government oversight, leading all sorts of chaos and benefitting big business.)
It also doesn’t seem to really apply to foreign policy. On paper, they are isolationist, but given a chance to bomb a bunch of Palestinians, suddenly they forget that.
I suppose the unifying theme of their thought is that no matter what the position is, they want to make the world more terrible, and a little bit more cruel
Re: Black + white = ?
Posted: Sat May 11, 2024 9:31 am
by tlynn78
Weyoun wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 7:09 am
[youtube][/youtube]Another 150,000 people are about to be displaced from their homes. No closer to free the hostages.
I know, I know, “they voted for this.”
Flock still hasn’t explained why it is in our *national interest* to support the displacement of 150,000 civilians.
One thing I’ve noticed about the folks who crow “Uniparty!” is that they are really just far right, fascist radicals.
The Uniparty! does not apply to healthcare, where they’re happy with corporations and cabals, raising prices on them and denying services.
(Another example comes with pharmaceutical companies and vaccines. They are front and center of all sorts of crazy conspiracy theories, but when one gets to the day-to-day runs of the healthcare system, insurance companies and hospitals, they’re allowed to manipulate and even scam people all they want. The same people who are anti-vaccine seem to consistently be in favor of a healthcare system where there’s no government oversight, leading all sorts of chaos and benefitting big business.)
It also doesn’t seem to really apply to foreign policy. On paper, they are isolationist, but given a chance to bomb a bunch of Palestinians, suddenly they forget that.
I suppose the unifying theme of their thought is that no matter what the position is, they want to make the world more terrible, and a little bit more cruel
You forgot "more white." You're not going to earn your next level woke badge with mistakes like that.
Re: Black + white = ?
Posted: Sat May 11, 2024 10:18 am
by Weyoun
tlynn78 wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 9:31 am
Weyoun wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 7:09 am
[youtube][/youtube]Another 150,000 people are about to be displaced from their homes. No closer to free the hostages.
I know, I know, “they voted for this.”
Flock still hasn’t explained why it is in our *national interest* to support the displacement of 150,000 civilians.
One thing I’ve noticed about the folks who crow “Uniparty!” is that they are really just far right, fascist radicals.
The Uniparty! does not apply to healthcare, where they’re happy with corporations and cabals, raising prices on them and denying services.
(Another example comes with pharmaceutical companies and vaccines. They are front and center of all sorts of crazy conspiracy theories, but when one gets to the day-to-day runs of the healthcare system, insurance companies and hospitals, they’re allowed to manipulate and even scam people all they want. The same people who are anti-vaccine seem to consistently be in favor of a healthcare system where there’s no government oversight, leading all sorts of chaos and benefitting big business.)
It also doesn’t seem to really apply to foreign policy. On paper, they are isolationist, but given a chance to bomb a bunch of Palestinians, suddenly they forget that.
I suppose the unifying theme of their thought is that no matter what the position is, they want to make the world more terrible, and a little bit more cruel
You forgot "more white." You're not going to earn your next level woke badge with mistakes like that.
Oh look, a little doggie tugging at my pants leg. I hope you are house broken.
Re: Black + white = ?
Posted: Sun May 12, 2024 6:57 pm
by flockofseagulls104
Flock still hasn’t explained why it is in our *national interest* to support the displacement of 150,000 civilians.
Oh, This needs to actually be said?
Since Israel is the only democratic state in the Middle East, not to mention the only Jewish state in the world, it might be a good idea for us to defend it against becoming another radicalized country controlled by the lunatics in Iran and intent on destroying us. If that is the only way they can find to do it, I support it. They have always shown their responses are mindful of avoiding civilian casualties as much as possible. But they are in a fight for their very lives, as a people and a nation. It is not just Hamas, but a ticking time bomb with Hezbollah and Iran. We have already delayed their response to Hamas in Rafah by our politically driven meddling. They need to destroy what remains of Hamas as quickly and completely as possible so they can be ready for attacks from the north and the east.
Or do you support the genocide of millions of Jews from the river to the sea?
Re: Black + white = ?
Posted: Sun May 12, 2024 7:17 pm
by Beebs52
Can't argue with that. And why would you...
Re: Black + white = ?
Posted: Sun May 12, 2024 8:10 pm
by Weyoun
See, the thing is, genocide of Jews is not happening right now. In fact, they’re overwhelming Gaza.
So it’s a fault equivalence to say that if you don’t support killing thousands upon thousands of Gazans, that, by implication, you’re in favor of another Holocaust.
I’ve argued here before that Israel is taking such a publicity hit from this, that actually places them in a weaker position internationally. That would mean that in a future crisis, they might have less support, and that would place them more at risk for another holocaust.
I’ve mentioned this before, and you’ve never addressed it, because it is an argument and requires thinking, and you’re too busy slapping your head on the desk to put together anything more than what you can hear it on TV.
Can you put up a counter argument at that point, or are you still just going to crap out the same nonsense about how everyone is an anti-Semite because they think the current course is actually place the future security of Israel at risk?
Incidentally, it’s still not clear to me why we need to give Israel arms for the situation, since they seem to have the situation well in hand.
Re: Black + white = ?
Posted: Sun May 12, 2024 8:30 pm
by Beebs52
"See, the thing is, genocide of Jews is not happening right now. In fact, they’re overwhelming Gaza.
So it’s a fault equivalence to say that if you don’t support killing thousands upon thousands of Gazans, that, by implication, you’re in favor of another Holocaust.
I’ve argued here before that Israel is taking such a publicity hit from this, that actually places them in a weaker position internationally. That would mean that in a future crisis, they might have less support, and that would place them more at risk for another holocaust."
October 7 was genocide.
I don't think they want to kill thousands upon thousands. I'm pretty sure they want to prevent thousands of their own people from murder
And I would say putting themselves at more risk for another holocaust is a fucking weird statement. That's not even an option. Or is it for you?
Re: Black + white = ?
Posted: Sun May 12, 2024 11:08 pm
by flockofseagulls104
Hamas knew they did not have the ability to defeat Israel. They are evil, but not dumb. Their plan is working out as they thought. They would get Israel to attack them while they made sure as many of their own civilian people got killed and the international press would cover it. And they would use propaganda to accomplish the rest. If Hamas survives this, they win, and Israel is very much weakened for Iran to use their other proxies to finish the job. They were and are counting on useful idiots like you, doc.
Re: Black + white = ?
Posted: Mon May 13, 2024 7:06 am
by Weyoun
flockofseagulls104 wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 11:08 pm
Hamas knew they did not have the ability to defeat Israel. They are evil, but not dumb. Their plan is working out as they thought. They would get Israel to attack them while they made sure as many of their own civilian people got killed and the international press would cover it. And they would use propaganda to accomplish the rest. If Hamas survives this, they win, and Israel is very much weakened for Iran to use their other proxies to finish the job. They were and are counting on useful idiots like you, doc.
So you agree, Israel is doing exactly what Hamas wants. Sounds like a great idea!
You may think we’re all a bunch of idiots, but if it’s idiots who are gonna drive the opinion and management of this situation, then perhaps you should account for the idiots. I know that I have to account for the idiots when I post on this board!
Regardless, you’re the one who seems actively happy over the idea of dead children. Blood is on your filthy hands, and it’s not cleaning them.
Re: Black + white = ?
Posted: Mon May 13, 2024 7:08 am
by Weyoun
Beebs52 wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 8:30 pm
"See, the thing is, genocide of Jews is not happening right now. In fact, they’re overwhelming Gaza.
So it’s a fault equivalence to say that if you don’t support killing thousands upon thousands of Gazans, that, by implication, you’re in favor of another Holocaust.
I’ve argued here before that Israel is taking such a publicity hit from this, that actually places them in a weaker position internationally. That would mean that in a future crisis, they might have less support, and that would place them more at risk for another holocaust."
October 7 was genocide.
I don't think they want to kill thousands upon thousands. I'm pretty sure they want to prevent thousands of their own people from murder
And I would say putting themselves at more risk for another holocaust is a fucking weird statement. That's not even an option. Or is it for you?
Oh, the “if you don’t support Israel no matter what you must want another Holocaust.” There is, “my country right or wrong,” and there’s that stupidity. Israel is allowed to make mistakes also. Especially if it’s threatens the future security of Israel, I think it is appropriate to call them out on it.
Just admit that you’re happy that a bunch of Palestinians are being killed and move on.
Re: Black + white = ?
Posted: Mon May 13, 2024 11:58 am
by flockofseagulls104
Doc, stick your pejoratives up your ass. I want no one killed. For you to even write that statement is an indication of how far off your hinges you are.
Hamas is a sworn and proven enemy of Israel and the Jewish people. The Palestinian leadership, be it the PLO or Hamas, has been given numerous opportunities to establish peace in the region. They have refused every time and have initiated hostilities hundreds of times, pretty much against defenseless citizens every time. And in the latest instance, in the most inhuman ways imaginable. What is your reason for wanting them to continue to exist?
Since I anticipate you will have no answer to that question, the next question is again: How would you advise Israel to proceed, even though you know little about the actual situation and have no idea about the facts on the ground, and your life and family is not at stake? That is the question YOU refuse to answer.
Re: Black + white = ?
Posted: Tue May 14, 2024 3:18 pm
by Weyoun
flockofseagulls104 wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 11:58 am
Doc, stick your pejoratives up your ass. I want no one killed. For you to even write that statement is an indication of how far off your hinges you are.
Hamas is a sworn and proven enemy of Israel and the Jewish people. The Palestinian leadership, be it the PLO or Hamas, has been given numerous opportunities to establish peace in the region. They have refused every time and have initiated hostilities hundreds of times, pretty much against defenseless citizens every time. And in the latest instance, in the most inhuman ways imaginable. What is your reason for wanting them to continue to exist?
Since I anticipate you will have no answer to that question, the next question is again: How would you advise Israel to proceed, even though you know little about the actual situation and have no idea about the facts on the ground, and your life and family is not at stake? That is the question YOU refuse to answer.
I have explained elsewhere, when asked by Spock, what my strategy would be.
I've also asked you - and you have declined to answer - why we must support them with arms. It's one thing to say they can do what they want - it's another to have our tax dollars support it, when I would argue that constantly bombing children may actually not be in our national interest.
Re: Black + white = ?
Posted: Tue May 14, 2024 3:30 pm
by flockofseagulls104
Weyoun wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 3:18 pm
flockofseagulls104 wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 11:58 am
Doc, stick your pejoratives up your ass. I want no one killed. For you to even write that statement is an indication of how far off your hinges you are.
Hamas is a sworn and proven enemy of Israel and the Jewish people. The Palestinian leadership, be it the PLO or Hamas, has been given numerous opportunities to establish peace in the region. They have refused every time and have initiated hostilities hundreds of times, pretty much against defenseless citizens every time. And in the latest instance, in the most inhuman ways imaginable. What is your reason for wanting them to continue to exist?
Since I anticipate you will have no answer to that question, the next question is again: How would you advise Israel to proceed, even though you know little about the actual situation and have no idea about the facts on the ground, and your life and family is not at stake? That is the question YOU refuse to answer.
I have explained elsewhere, when asked by Spock, what my strategy would be.
I've also asked you - and you have declined to answer - why we must support them with arms. It's one thing to say they can do what they want - it's another to have our tax dollars support it, when I would argue that constantly bombing children may actually not be in our national interest.
Since you either can't or don't read, I will repost my answer:
Since Israel is the only democratic state in the Middle East, not to mention the only Jewish state in the world, it might be a good idea for us to defend it against becoming another radicalized country controlled by the lunatics in Iran and intent on destroying us. If that is the only way they can find to do it, I support it. They have always shown their responses are mindful of avoiding civilian casualties as much as possible. But they are in a fight for their very lives, as a people and a nation. It is not just Hamas, but a ticking time bomb with Hezbollah and Iran. We have already delayed their response to Hamas in Rafah by our politically driven meddling. They need to destroy what remains of Hamas as quickly and completely as possible so they can be ready for attacks from the north and the east.
Or do you support the genocide of millions of Jews from the river to the sea?
Not to mention that Hamas still has American hostages.
All this is over if Hamas surrenders and releases the hostages. Why have you or the President not ever called for that? Why do you want Hamas to survive? Maybe you should join the college campus protests?
Re: Black + white = ?
Posted: Tue May 14, 2024 4:08 pm
by jarnon
flockofseagulls104 wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 3:30 pm
All this is over if Hamas surrenders and releases the hostages. Why have you or the President not ever called for that?
The U.S. government, especially Secretary Blinken, has made this demand hundreds of times, yet astonishingly Hamas hasn’t complied.
Here is a statement outlining U.S. principles concerning the war:
Press Briefing by Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre and National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan
A problem with most proposals to protect civilians, including mine, is that Hamas won’t let civilians move to safe areas. They put them in the combat zone as a buffer against the IDF.
Re: Black + white = ?
Posted: Tue May 14, 2024 5:15 pm
by flockofseagulls104
The U.S. government, especially Secretary Blinken, has made this demand hundreds of times, yet astonishingly Hamas hasn’t complied.
So, The US Government, knowing that Hamas has refused to surrender and/or surrender the hostages, and knowing that Hamas deliberately uses it's own citizens as a shield, then decides to limit Israel's ability to fight by embargoing artillery and possibly withholding intelligence. Apparently to gain votes from Minnesota and Wisconsin in the upcoming election.
Re: Black + white = ?
Posted: Tue May 14, 2024 8:34 pm
by tlynn78
flockofseagulls104 wrote: ↑Tue May 14, 2024 5:15 pm
The U.S. government, especially Secretary Blinken, has made this demand hundreds of times, yet astonishingly Hamas hasn’t complied.
So, The US Government, knowing that Hamas has refused to surrender and/or surrender the hostages, and knowing that Hamas deliberately uses it's own citizens as a shield, then decides to limit Israel's ability to fight by embargoing artillery and possibly withholding intelligence. Apparently to gain votes from Minnesota and Wisconsin in the upcoming election.
Precisely. Hamas can end their 'genocide' by ending their killing of Israel’s people. Israel can ONLY avoid their own genocide with a strong, supported military.
Re: Black + white = ?
Posted: Sat May 18, 2024 3:25 pm
by Bob78164
BackInTex wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2024 7:22 am
Weyoun wrote: ↑Wed May 08, 2024 6:29 am
I am still confused by the point being made by flock and others.
So you are really saying that, because people are being used as human shields, Israel is not blameworthy at all for firing those weapons?
Or are you saying, because human shields are being used, Israel MUST kill these folks, to make the use of such human shields less effective in the future?
Just to be clear, you are saying Israel KNOWS many civilians will die either way.
Sophie's choice?
Imagine this scenario.
A perp has a gun and is sheilding himself behind his child. Meanwhile, you also have a gun, and your three kids are with you. You are in the open and have no cover or opportunity to retreat to cover. The perp starts shooting your kids.
Do you shoot at the perp knowing that the only sure way to elimninat the threat to your kids is to shoot the perp's child? Or do you not shoot the perp's child, because that is wrong, and let the perp shoot and kill your three kids?
But that’s the wrong analogy. The right analogy is to assume that this gunman had gone on a rampage IN THE IMMEDIATE PAST but was currently barricaded and not an immediate threat. To get him, do you get to fire weapons to take out his house (which includes his three kids) and quite possibly a bunch of his neighbors? —Bob
Re: Black + white = ?
Posted: Sat May 18, 2024 6:38 pm
by Beebs52
Y'all are talking about this in non war terms. Are y'all fucking nuts?
Re: Black + white = ?
Posted: Sat May 18, 2024 6:46 pm
by Bob78164
Beebs52 wrote: ↑Sat May 18, 2024 6:38 pm
Y'all are talking about this in non war terms. Are y'all fucking nuts?
There are rules that govern war as well. And I really don't have any confidence at all that Netanyahu is trying very hard to spare the lives of non-combatants, even children. --Bob
Re: Black + white = ?
Posted: Sat May 18, 2024 6:56 pm
by Beebs52
Bob78164 wrote: ↑Sat May 18, 2024 6:46 pm
Beebs52 wrote: ↑Sat May 18, 2024 6:38 pm
Y'all are talking about this in non war terms. Are y'all fucking nuts?
There are rules that govern war as well. And I really don't have any confidence at all that Netanyahu is trying very hard to spare the lives of non-combatants, even children. --Bob
But, you could be wrong. Or Hamas may slime their way in to kill civilians. So, and?
Re: Black + white = ?
Posted: Sat May 18, 2024 7:28 pm
by Bob78164
Beebs52 wrote: ↑Sat May 18, 2024 6:56 pm
Bob78164 wrote: ↑Sat May 18, 2024 6:46 pm
Beebs52 wrote: ↑Sat May 18, 2024 6:38 pm
Y'all are talking about this in non war terms. Are y'all fucking nuts?
There are rules that govern war as well. And I really don't have any confidence at all that Netanyahu is trying very hard to spare the lives of non-combatants, even children. --Bob
But, you could be wrong. Or Hamas may slime their way in to kill civilians. So, and?
So I'm balancing the chance that Hamas MAY breach Israeli security again against the certainty of many, many non-combatant deaths.
I have no problem with President Biden using whatever tools are at his disposal to encourage a reluctant (to say the least) Israeli government to care about non-combatant deaths in Gaza. --Bob
Re: Black + white = ?
Posted: Sun May 19, 2024 8:09 am
by jarnon
Israeli minister Gantz presents ultimatum to Bibi on post-Gaza war strategy
Observe that Gantz didn’t accuse Bibi of genocide, and Bibi didn’t call Gantz antisemitic. It’s possible to have a heated discussion about life-and-death issues without personal attacks.