Update on Trump Legal Cases

[flockofseagulls104]

The notion that the democrats will covertly rig the next election has been thoroughly debunked.
They are doing it in broad daylight.

I love the Babylon Bee.

[flockofseagulls104]

Big day today, too bad everyone has abandoned this forum.

True the Vote wins the lawfare suit brought against them by Stacy Abrams and Marc Elias.

No evidence of election fraud in 2020?

The well-crafted partisan narrative of January 6th is being used as the basis for most of the disgusting lawfare by the left. Here is a documented timeline of January 6th. There is certainly reasonable doubt here. But somehow a politically partisan, ex-ACLU executive SOS with no training in the law gets to disenfranchise half her state based on her opinion.

Claudia Gay, the serial plagiarizer who doesn't think calling for Jewish Genocide violates her university's policies, finally resigns.

[silverscreenselect]

True the Vote wins the lawfare suit brought against them by Stacy Abrams and Marc Elias.

The judge ruled that Fair Fight, Abrams' voting rights group, did not prove their case against True the Vote under the Voting Rights Act. Fair Fight had claimed that True the Vote tried to threaten or coerce Georgia voters, and the judge found insufficient evidence of that. However, the judge was critical of TTV's methods:

TTV’s list utterly lacked reliability. Indeed, it verges on recklessness. The court has heard no testimony and seen no evidence of any significant quality control efforts, or any expertise guiding the data process. It is clear that TTV did not engage in a quality process to create the list, nor did they have proper review or controls in place.

I suspect that a lot more of Flock's "evidence" of voter fraud has the same weaknesses.

[flockofseagulls104]

True the Vote wins the lawfare suit brought against them by Stacy Abrams and Marc Elias.

The judge ruled that Fair Fight, Abrams' voting rights group, did not prove their case against True the Vote under the Voting Rights Act. Fair Fight had claimed that True the Vote tried to threaten or coerce Georgia voters, and the judge found insufficient evidence of that. However, the judge was critical of TTV's methods:

TTV’s list utterly lacked reliability. Indeed, it verges on recklessness. The court has heard no testimony and seen no evidence of any significant quality control efforts, or any expertise guiding the data process. It is clear that TTV did not engage in a quality process to create the list, nor did they have proper review or controls in place.

I suspect that a lot more of Flock's "evidence" of voter fraud has the same weaknesses.

I am sure the judge is an expert on data analysis, because that, of course, is a major qualification for his/her job. But thanks for finding that minuscule point to bring up so you could ignore the overall point. You, with your unique talents, should be a witness at EVERY Court case, since you could save everyone a lot of time and trouble in sorting out what's true and false and what's important and what's not.

In data analysis, it's pretty easy to sort out what's true and what's false, because the queries you use rely totally on concepts like 'equals', 'less than', 'greater than' 'is true', 'is false' etc.. It doesn't have functions like 'if you are a right-wing fanatic', 'if it helps Trump'. But people like you can and will find anything you can to argue about it. Or better yet, just ignore it on some made-up technicality. There's no 'my truth' and 'your truth' in data analysis.

[silverscreenselect]

In data analysis, it's pretty easy to sort out what's true and what's false, because the queries you use rely totally on concepts like 'equals', 'less than', 'greater than' 'is true', 'is false' etc.. It doesn't have functions like 'if you are a right-wing fanatic', 'if it helps Trump'. But people like you can and will find anything you can to argue about it. Or better yet, just ignore it on some made-up technicality. There's no 'my truth' and 'your truth' in data analysis.

Trump paid me to find voter fraud. Then he lied after I found 2020 election wasn't stolen.

The cries that the 2020 election was lost or stolen due to voter fraud continue with no sign of stopping. But if voter fraud had impacted the 2020 election, it would already have been proven.

Can a steady diet of lies and innuendo overcome the truth? In November 2020, former President Donald Trump asserted that voter fraud had altered the outcome of the 2020 presidential election. The day after the election, his campaign hired an expert in voter data to attempt to prove Trump’s allegations and put him back in the White House. I am the expert who was hired by the Trump campaign.

The findings of my company’s in-depth analysis are detailed in the depositions taken by the Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol. The transcripts show that the campaign found no evidence of voter fraud sufficient to change the outcome of any election. That message was communicated directly to White House chief of staff Mark Meadows. Our findings have also been subpoenaed by special counsel Jack Smith’s federal investigation and Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis’ investigation in Georgia. Those emails and documents show that the voter data available to the campaign contained no evidence of large-scale voter fraud based on data mining and fraud analytics. More important, claims of voter fraud made by others were verified as false, including proof of why those claims were disproven.

And yet, the cries that the election was lost or stolen due to voter fraud continue with no sign of stopping. Stories that set the record straight about election innuendo are not typically broadcast in right-leaning media, which means that millions of people receive no information to help them make a more informed decision about what happened in 2020.

What these claims don’t take into account is that voter fraud is detectable, quantifiable and verifiable. I have yet to see anyone offer up “evidence” of voter fraud from the 2020 election that provides these three things. My company’s contract with the campaign obligated us to deliver evidence of voter fraud that could be defended in a court of law. The small amount of voter fraud I found was bipartisan, with about as many Republicans casting duplicate votes as Democrats. This is a crime of privilege: Those with two homes sometimes take two bites of the electoral apple. There were also small numbers of deceased voters. Still, nothing emerged that could provide a solid basis for a legal challenge to an election result in any of the states we evaluated.

There is no doubt that voter fraud can animate people. But it is one thing to provide a rallying point for supporters and quite another to drag our election infrastructure and legal system into a foundationless set of false claims. A better use of time, money and energy would be to address systemic weaknesses in our election systems – such as the distressing lack of national election infrastructure to enforce election integrity, destructive practices to our elections such as gerrymandering, and leveling the playing field so that our elections become fairer and more competitive. If voter fraud had impacted the 2020 election, it would already have been proven. Maintaining the lies undermines faith in the foundation of our democracy.

This man should know. He's the expert witness hired by Trump to find fraud in the election. There's a reason 60 courts ruled against Trump. But useful, gullible tools like Flock will still believe they were robbed because that's what motivates the base, not any of Trump's policies and certainly not his character.

[flockofseagulls104]

Trollboy, you know nothing.

We are not trying to overturn any elections. We are working to ensure the crap that could have, and probably did, happen in 2020 does not happen again. And we are watching. But we are up against people with a lot of power that resist, with everything they have at their disposal, the outing of the truth. They have power. They have money. And they have a seemingly endless cast of lawyers that attack anyone that threatens their narrative. That is why you don't see any of this in the MSM. That is why you have 60 meaningless court cases to endlessly cite. Cowardly public servants that fold at the prospect of Marc Elias throwing a 7 figure lawsuit at them if they rule in a way he doesn't like. Which is exactly what happened to TVT and Rudy and many others.

That guy you quoted is a tool. And so are you. Just me, personally, can refute him with actual evidence that YOU can reproduce, if you care to. So could he. I, personally, have found HUNDREDS of deceased voters currently on the voter roll in my county, going one by one and finding their obituaries and supporting information. And I have not even looked at 1 percent of the voter roll. But I am not going to tell you what I have found. Why should I? You'd call me a liar anyway.

But that's just one area. And I am not the only one. There is so much actual evidence of how completely corrupt the voter roll database is, it is mindblowing. But keep on believing Raffensperger.

[silverscreenselect]

That guy you quoted is a tool. And so are you. Just me, personally, can refute him with actual evidence that YOU can reproduce, if you care to. So could he. I, personally, have found HUNDREDS of deceased voters currently on the voter roll in my county, going one by one and finding their obituaries and supporting information.

Here are Ken Block's qualifications from his LinkedIn page:

President Simpatico Software 21 years: Simpatico provides software consulting services and data mining services to private companies and governmental agencies, as well as high-volume, highly available database engineering and design services to our customers. Simpatico specializes in waste and fraud data mining operations in social service spending programs and also supplies software services to the SNAP (Food Stamp) marketplace. Simpatico has provided engineering and consulting services to state governments, lottery companies and other corporations large and small. We have built custom, web-based applications for startup companies and have solved difficult technical issues for some of the country's largest corporations. http://www.simpaticosoftware.com

President Cross Alert Systems 21 years: Cross Alert Systems manufactures intelligent traffic systems for recreational trail/public road intersections. Cross Alert's systems use motion detection to detect trail users approaching an intersection, and flash amber beacons to warn approaching vehicles of a trail user's presence at the intersection. Our systems make intersections safer at intersections around the country, including several military bases. http://www.crossalert.com

And most important, retained by Donald Trump to investigate voter fraud in the 2020 election. He is a member of the Republican party, having run for governor twice. He is not a wild-eyed liberal, and Trump (or his advisors) thought enough of him to hire him.


There are Flock's qualifications:

Received charm bracelet at Donald Trump rally and got to sit three rows behind Trump.

I know who I would believe, and I'm pretty sure who a court would believe.

[flockofseagulls104]

That guy you quoted is a tool. And so are you. Just me, personally, can refute him with actual evidence that YOU can reproduce, if you care to. So could he. I, personally, have found HUNDREDS of deceased voters currently on the voter roll in my county, going one by one and finding their obituaries and supporting information.

Here are Ken Block's qualifications from his LinkedIn page:

President Simpatico Software 21 years: Simpatico provides software consulting services and data mining services to private companies and governmental agencies, as well as high-volume, highly available database engineering and design services to our customers. Simpatico specializes in waste and fraud data mining operations in social service spending programs and also supplies software services to the SNAP (Food Stamp) marketplace. Simpatico has provided engineering and consulting services to state governments, lottery companies and other corporations large and small. We have built custom, web-based applications for startup companies and have solved difficult technical issues for some of the country's largest corporations. http://www.simpaticosoftware.com

President Cross Alert Systems 21 years: Cross Alert Systems manufactures intelligent traffic systems for recreational trail/public road intersections. Cross Alert's systems use motion detection to detect trail users approaching an intersection, and flash amber beacons to warn approaching vehicles of a trail user's presence at the intersection. Our systems make intersections safer at intersections around the country, including several military bases. http://www.crossalert.com

And most important, retained by Donald Trump to investigate voter fraud in the 2020 election. He is a member of the Republican party, having run for governor twice. He is not a wild-eyed liberal, and Trump (or his advisors) thought enough of him to hire him.


There are Flock's qualifications:

Received charm bracelet at Donald Trump rally and got to sit three rows behind Trump.

I know who I would believe, and I'm pretty sure who a court would believe.

He references not one thing of the evidence I have shown him. Instead he doubles down on the swamp-connected 'expert' that shows up out of thin air on all the MSM, that does not dare reference the real evidence that is coming out. And takes his ubiquitous 'clever' shot at me, even though he knows nothing about the evidence I have.
As I have repeatedly pointed out: blindly, willfully, committedly and unfailingly ignorant. I rest my case.

[silverscreenselect]

Instead he doubles down on the swamp-connected 'expert' that shows up out of thin air on all the MSM,

That "swamp-connected expert" was hired by Donald Trump to find fraud in the 2020 election. He was paid $755,000 by the Trump campaign. That's how you lose 60 court cases.

You'll probably be hearing more from him in the future. Both Jack Smith and Fani Willis have subpoenaed him.

[flockofseagulls104]

Instead he doubles down on the swamp-connected 'expert' that shows up out of thin air on all the MSM,

That "swamp-connected expert" was hired by Donald Trump to find fraud in the 2020 election. He was paid $755,000 by the Trump campaign. That's how you lose 60 court cases.

You'll probably be hearing more from him in the future. Both Jack Smith and Fani Willis have subpoenaed him.

The 51 intelligence experts were paid millions of dollars by the swamp. They did the same thing this guy is doing. Lying and covering up. Perhaps someday you can peruse the evidence I've shown you. Valentine is absolutely correct about what he shows about the GA voter roll. He is kinder about the 'old' people than I am. Those false dates are deliberate and someone entered that false information into the voter roll, which is a felony. Our BOE denied challenges against that on a partisan vote, which is what they always do. Ignoring felonies. Don't attempt to correct it, which they could easily do by contacting the voter, which is their lawful responsibility. But no, just keep it inaccurate and illegal. Sweep it under the rug. Par for the course.

Jay Valentine's credentials on this subject are superior and far more credible than Block's. Not that you care. Not that the state-run media or google cares. Do searches on both names. Race car driver? Oh, add the word TRUMP after Ken Block's name. Now he's a world-class expert!

Where's Mr. Block's data and evidence? Oh. He is correct because he disputes Trump with words. No facts that I have seen. No actual data. No methodology. Only 'Hey I'm an expert!' and the media repeats what I say. That's all the credentials and facts he needs. More starchamber and no facts from the Election Interference Enablers.

[silverscreenselect]

Valentine is absolutely correct about what he shows about the GA voter roll. He is kinder about the 'old' people than I am. Those false dates are deliberate and someone entered that false information into the voter roll, which is a felony. Our BOE denied challenges against that on a partisan vote, which is what they always do. Ignoring felonies. Don't attempt to correct it, which they could easily do by contacting the voter, which is their lawful responsibility. But no, just keep it inaccurate and illegal. Sweep it under the rug. Par for the course.

Jay Valentine's credentials on this subject are superior and far more credible than Block's. Not that you care. Not that the state-run media or google cares. Do searches on both names. Race car driver? Oh, add the word TRUMP after Ken Block's name. Now he's a world-class expert!

Where's Mr. Block's data and evidence? Oh. He is correct because he disputes Trump with words. No facts that I have seen. No actual data. No methodology. Only 'Hey I'm an expert!' and the media repeats what I say. That's all the credentials and facts he needs. More starchamber and no facts from the Election Interference Enablers.

Even for you, this is one mind-numbingly moronic post. I checked out your "expert" and found a couple of links to his appearances on obscure right-wing podcasts. (I was on a horror film/book podcast once. It's not that difficult, and I wasn't even trying to get on one.) Ken Block (who does have a book coming out in March) is in the middle of a national media blitz. Valentine's company website is his own, jayvalentine.com, which has dozens of blog posts about what other companies are doing wrong, but almost nothing showing any actual accomplishments of his company. Block's company has been hired by the states of Texas and his native Rhode Island to ferret out agency fraud. That Texas gig is probably what got the Trump campaign to hire him. Block has over 500 connections on LinkedIn, Valentine has 1. (Block is a third-degree connection of mine, not counted in his total, which are only first-degree connections. That means that one of my connections is connected to someone else who is connected to Block.) Block has several hundred endorsements on LinkedIn; Valentine has none. Obviously, Block isn't going to post his detailed findings in a newspaper editorial column. But all that information is in the files of the January 6 committee, and now, presumably, Jack Smith and Fani Willis have it too.

I underlined the gist of your rant. The State Board of Elections overruled the vast majority of the objections people like you filed. But you do the same thing Donald Trump does when he doesn't like a court ruling. You claim the judge (or in your case the Board) is biased against you. Start winning a few of these objections and then you might get some credibility anywhere other than a handful of right-wing podcasts.

[flockofseagulls104]

But all that information is in the files of the January 6 committee

Really? Sure it hasn't been destroyed?

[flockofseagulls104]

I have read the entire TVT verdict document.

Yes, the judge had some problems with TVT's challenges, saying they were sloppy and unvetted. I will give him that.
He also had some problems with Catherine's testimony, saying that it was self-serving and such. He was there, I wasn't. So I will give him that.

I have heard from Mark Davis after the verdict, and he gave his take on the proceedings. The judge was much more accepting with Davis and Somerville's challenges, because they worked harder to cull it of obvious rows to be omitted. I will testify that you have to do that, because the GA voter roll is rife with erroneous data, duplications and just plain garbage.

However, the main point is that the whole lawsuit was based on a clause in the National Voting Rights Act about voter intimidation. The judge found that there is no intimidation in challenging invalid registrations to clean the voter roll, which is in desperate need of cleaning. And the whole suit, in my opinion, was just another avenue of lawfare being used by the left. They used the excuse of 'voter intimidation' to drain funds, resources and focus from True the Vote. Their whole case was to try and find just one voter who could claim they were 'intimidated' convincingly enough to sway the judge, an Obama appointee. They couldn't find one.

So they won without winning, which is Mark Elias's whole point of existence. They use money, influence and a never ending queue of willing lawyers, probably some that are above average, to file lawsuits wherever and whenever they can just to drain their perceived opposition. And people like the President of the Earth, aka Stacey Abrams, create hundreds of false front organizations, NGOs, to further their illegal, partisan activities. Absolutely disgusting, but that is where we have come to.

[earendel]

Returning to the fray...

Thank you, ear, for that mention of Project 2025. It is an update of a document that helped shape President Reagan's administration.

Have you actually read it, or are just taking points from 'experts' who are trashing it?

Once again I admit my Google-fu is weak. I can't find a cohesive document from Project 2025, only summaries at the Heritage Foundation website and links elsewhere. As for the "Mandate for Leadership" under the Reagan administration, I can't find it, either. The link you provided is to the Heritage Foundation's document.

If you don't agree we should, as a nation, address these issues:

1. Restore the family as the centerpiece of American life and protect
our children.
2. Dismantle the administrative state and return self-governance to the
American people.
3. Defend our nation’s sovereignty, borders, and bounty against global threats.
4. Secure our God-given individual rights to live freely—what our Constitution
calls “the Blessings of Liberty.”

then, I'm sorry, I question your values.

I have no problems with #1, although I would disagree with the degree to which the family is or isn't the centerpiece, and I have no quarrel with #3, though I don't see the immigration issue the same way that you do. #2 is problematic for me (remember, I was part of the "administrative state" for 39 years). "Self-governance" sounds like anarchy to me - each person doing whatever they may feel like. As for #4, it sounds very much like #2.

From what I understand, this document is not written by a bunch of wild eyed, crazy whackos. The authors are experienced and scholarly conservatives to serve as a guide to the next conservative President in restoring and fixing the damage done to our country by the left.

That's where the rub is - I don't see "the left" as having done damage, but I do see what is being suggested by Project 2025 as dangerous.

The extremist leftist whackos both on this site and who have access to the internet and social media are going to do what they always do. Find minor points that they can exaggerate and put in their own made-up context in order to enflame their audience and defame the document. I hope you can see beyond that.

The things I have seen don't strike me as "minor points". Frankly, they scare me.

I am hoping that you can see your way to questioning the answers you gave me above. On every one of those points, one side or the other is lying to you. Look at each of the points you made above in more detail and decide for yourself who is lying.

What should I question? I wouldn't have provided those answers if I hadn't checked them out first.

[flockofseagulls104]

Upon further review, I take back my support of Jay Valentine and Omega. People who I know and trust have informed me they've worked with his group and he did not deliver on what he promised and claimed he could. His fractal technology has yet to prove itself in this area, so we will continue to work with proven technology. It is a time-consuming and laborious process to find the evidence of election manipulation after the fact, because the whole point was to make it hard to find. But we are finding it, to prevent it from occurring in the future. Omega looked like a short cut, but for the present, it is not.

[silverscreenselect]

Upon further review, I take back my support of Jay Valentine and Omega. People who I know and trust have informed me they've worked with his group and he did not deliver on what he promised and claimed he could. His fractal technology has yet to prove itself in this area, so we will continue to work with proven technology. It is a time-consuming and laborious process to find the evidence of election manipulation after the fact, because the whole point was to make it hard to find. But we are finding it, to prevent it from occurring in the future. Omega looked like a short cut, but for the present, it is not.

Congratulations, Flock. You're off to a small, but good start.

[silverscreenselect]

Wayne LaPierre has resigned as President of the NRA days before jury selection is to begin in a New York civil suit that could have major implications for its survival.. NY Attorney General Letitia James sued LaPierre and other NRA executives in 2020, alleging they used NRA funds for their own personal enrichment. As James put it, LaPierre used the NRA as his "personal piggy bank," financing eight family trips to the Bahamas and an African safari, among other things. The judge in the suit has already dismissed NRA claims that the suit is a matter of political bias. An attempted bankruptcy filing by the NRA was dismissed by a Texas judge because he ruled it was brought in bad faith. Although James sought to put the NRA out of business entirely, the judge indicated that remedy was unlikely. What is likely is that LaPierre and the other officers will be ordered to reimburse the organization for the money they appropriated with interest and lose their positions (which in LaPierre's case is now a moot point).

[Bob78164]

To the surprise of pretty much no one, the Supreme Court has granted certiorari in the Colorado case. Briefing will be complete by February 5, 2024, and oral argument is set for February 8. It wouldn't surprise me if the Court issued a decision within a week of oral argument. It would surprise me if the Court took as long as a month. --Bob

[flockofseagulls104]

Upon further review, I take back my support of Jay Valentine and Omega. People who I know and trust have informed me they've worked with his group and he did not deliver on what he promised and claimed he could. His fractal technology has yet to prove itself in this area, so we will continue to work with proven technology. It is a time-consuming and laborious process to find the evidence of election manipulation after the fact, because the whole point was to make it hard to find. But we are finding it, to prevent it from occurring in the future. Omega looked like a short cut, but for the present, it is not.

Congratulations, Flock. You're off to a small, but good start.

As opposed to you, who never admits when he is wrong, because he avoids and/or ignores all information that proves he is wrong.

[flockofseagulls104]

I have no problems with #1, although I would disagree with the degree to which the family is or isn't the centerpiece, and I have no quarrel with #3, though I don't see the immigration issue the same way that you do. #2 is problematic for me (remember, I was part of the "administrative state" for 39 years). "Self-governance" sounds like anarchy to me - each person doing whatever they may feel like. As for #4, it sounds very much like #2.

You don't see the immigration issue the same way I do? In what way do you see it? I cannot believe that you have no concept of the difference between legal and illegal immigration. Explain that to me, if you can.

If you don't believe that family should be the centerpiece, what do you believe should be?

Self-Governance? You want the government to RULE? You want RULERS? You believe there should be one centralized authority that dictates how you live your life? If so, who do you think should comprise that central authority? You don't believe in the concept of individual freedom and liberty, which was the bedrock on which this country was founded? Please don't confirm that you are further down the road of leftism than I think you are.

[earendel]

You don't see the immigration issue the same way I do? In what way do you see it? I cannot believe that you have no concept of the difference between legal and illegal immigration. Explain that to me, if you can.

I don't see it as a problem - I don't believe in "illegal" immigration. I believe that people who are seeking asylum to escape political oppression or fear for their lives because of gang violence in their home countries should be denied entry. I don't see it as a problem because it's those "illegal" immigrants who do the work that Americans don't want to do, such as fruit and vegetable picking, working in slaughterhouses, and even working in fast-food restaurants. As I have said before, they pay into the Social Security system but won't be able to get any back, which means that I can continue to draw mine.

If you don't believe that family should be the centerpiece, what do you believe should be?

If you read my response, I said I didn't have any problem with the family being the centerpiece. What I said is that you and I probably disagree as to the degree to which this is or is not the case.

Self-Governance? You want the government to RULE? You want RULERS? You believe there should be one centralized authority that dictates how you live your life? If so, who do you think should comprise that central authority? You don't believe in the concept of individual freedom and liberty, which was the bedrock on which this country was founded? Please don't confirm that you are further down the road of leftism than I think you are.

When the framers set up the Constitution they set up a centralized authority. They included articles, and later amendments, that to one degree or another controlled how we live our lives. That's what laws are all about, by the way - deciding what we can and cannot do. Again, you and I disagree on the extent to which government controls our lives. I, for one, appreciate a government that has rules and regulations about pharmaceuticals, the safety of food and water, building codes, airline safety - the list goes on. We are not, nor have we ever been a completely self-governing people. We live in a repreentative democracy, not a direct democracy. And, just to keep the fire burning, let us remember that "individual freedom" only applied to white males, and only those who owed property, since they were the only ones who could vote.

[flockofseagulls104]

They included articles, and later amendments, that to one degree or another controlled how we live our lives.

That is one area that is completely 'misinterpreted'. The Constitution was not written, and was never meant to restrict in any way the freedom and rights of individuals. Any articles and/or amendments are written to restrict the powers of the GOVERNMENT, not the people. And that is what is constantly being ignored by the left in this country. They do not recognize or they ignore the Constitutional restrictions on THEIR power.

I don't see it as a problem because it's those "illegal" immigrants who do the work that Americans don't want to do, such as fruit and vegetable picking, working in slaughterhouses, and even working in fast-food restaurants. As I have said before, they pay into the Social Security system but won't be able to get any back, which means that I can continue to draw mine.

Which is exactly my point. If what you say is the case, why is the law not changed so the people you mentioned are 'legal'? I would have no problem with that. But the current administration is flagrantly ignoring and implicitly and many times explicitly advocating lawlessness on the border. But you are OK with it. What about the people who are NOT OK with it? Is it OK to just dismiss us as white supremacists, racists, Ultra MAGA extremists and whatever else they make up? And meanwhile, mixed in with that group of people who you feel are OK to let in illegally are many 'not so fine' people that wish harm to this country and the people in it, and bring in sex slaves, unaccompanied children, drugs that kill millions of our citizens and many other detriments. That is why we are supposed to have a legal immigration system, ear. To protect the existing citizens and the well-being of our country. Why don't you get that?

[tlynn78]

You don't see the immigration issue the same way I do? In what way do you see it? I cannot believe that you have no concept of the difference between legal and illegal immigration. Explain that to me, if you can.

I don't see it as a problem - I don't believe in "illegal" immigration. I believe that people who are seeking asylum to escape political oppression or fear for their lives because of gang violence in their home countries should be denied entry. I don't see it as a problem because it's those "illegal" immigrants who do the work that Americans don't want to do, such as fruit and vegetable picking, working in slaughterhouses, and even working in fast-food restaurants. As I have said before, they pay into the Social Security system but won't be able to get any back, which means that I can continue to draw mine.

If you don't believe that family should be the centerpiece, what do you believe should be?

If you read my response, I said I didn't have any problem with the family being the centerpiece. What I said is that you and I probably disagree as to the degree to which this is or is not the case.

Self-Governance? You want the government to RULE? You want RULERS? You believe there should be one centralized authority that dictates how you live your life? If so, who do you think should comprise that central authority? You don't believe in the concept of individual freedom and liberty, which was the bedrock on which this country was founded? Please don't confirm that you are further down the road of leftism than I think you are.

When the framers set up the Constitution they set up a centralized authority. They included articles, and later amendments, that to one degree or another controlled how we live our lives. That's what laws are all about, by the way - deciding what we can and cannot do. Again, you and I disagree on the extent to which government controls our lives. I, for one, appreciate a government that has rules and regulations about pharmaceuticals, the safety of food and water, building codes, airline safety - the list goes on. We are not, nor have we ever been a completely self-governing people. We live in a repreentative democracy, not a direct democracy. And, just to keep the fire burning, let us remember that "individual freedom" only applied to white males, and only those who owed property, since they were the only ones who could vote.

See, I straight up see the "they do the work we don't want to" as pretty close to being in favor of slavery. I mean, you gotta figure the southerners were wringing their hands at the end of the Civil War over how the "dirty" work would get done without slaves.

[flockofseagulls104]

You don't see the immigration issue the same way I do? In what way do you see it? I cannot believe that you have no concept of the difference between legal and illegal immigration. Explain that to me, if you can.

I don't see it as a problem - I don't believe in "illegal" immigration. I believe that people who are seeking asylum to escape political oppression or fear for their lives because of gang violence in their home countries should be denied entry. I don't see it as a problem because it's those "illegal" immigrants who do the work that Americans don't want to do, such as fruit and vegetable picking, working in slaughterhouses, and even working in fast-food restaurants. As I have said before, they pay into the Social Security system but won't be able to get any back, which means that I can continue to draw mine.

If you don't believe that family should be the centerpiece, what do you believe should be?

If you read my response, I said I didn't have any problem with the family being the centerpiece. What I said is that you and I probably disagree as to the degree to which this is or is not the case.

Self-Governance? You want the government to RULE? You want RULERS? You believe there should be one centralized authority that dictates how you live your life? If so, who do you think should comprise that central authority? You don't believe in the concept of individual freedom and liberty, which was the bedrock on which this country was founded? Please don't confirm that you are further down the road of leftism than I think you are.

When the framers set up the Constitution they set up a centralized authority. They included articles, and later amendments, that to one degree or another controlled how we live our lives. That's what laws are all about, by the way - deciding what we can and cannot do. Again, you and I disagree on the extent to which government controls our lives. I, for one, appreciate a government that has rules and regulations about pharmaceuticals, the safety of food and water, building codes, airline safety - the list goes on. We are not, nor have we ever been a completely self-governing people. We live in a repreentative democracy, not a direct democracy. And, just to keep the fire burning, let us remember that "individual freedom" only applied to white males, and only those who owed property, since they were the only ones who could vote.

See, I straight up see the "they do the work we don't want to" as pretty close to being in favor of slavery. I mean, you gotta figure the southerners were wringing their hands at the end of the Civil War over how the "dirty" work would get done without slaves.

It's been said by many people smarter than me that the democrat party (and I include the uniparty politicians in this) relies on there being several 'underclasses' that they can exploit. Where would the dem party be without victims of something or another? So now they import them illegally so they can exploit them. One of the things those of us trying to clean up the voter rolls are up against is there is no way to challenge illegals that are signed up to vote using motor voter. The government refuses to provide any kind of list of citizens and noncitizens. Pretty sure that is by design.

[silverscreenselect]

See, I straight up see the "they do the work we don't want to" as pretty close to being in favor of slavery. I mean, you gotta figure the southerners were wringing their hands at the end of the Civil War over how the "dirty" work would get done without slaves.

No, illegal immigrants do a lot of work that is either physically demanding or involves bad working conditions (like chicken processing plants). They do get paid and in some cases more than for other types of unskilled labor. They are free to leave at any time and their employers can't beat and rape them the way slaves were frequently treated. Not slavery; nothing close.