A Tough, But Necessary Watch-"Screams Before Silence"

[Spock]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zAr9oGSXgak

https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/cultu ... cle-799000

A film put together by Sheryl Sandberg of Facebook fame. She is focusing on the Sexual Violence aspect of 10/7.

I am about halfway through and it is not something you can watch at one sitting.

The usual suspects here have long since moved on from what caused the Israelis to move into Gaza in the first place and are bitching about the Netanyahu government and such (an easily predictable move on their part). It is a good (but hard) reminder.

The left talks about a theoretical "War on Women" in this country. Well, this is what a real War on Women looks like.

[Weyoun]

I only know a handful of people who have tried to justify that kind of violence. I’m not one of them. Stop putting words in my mouth, you asshole.

My point, and I think it’s a very good one, is that perhaps the death of children secondary to this does not make anything better.

It’s clear you do not value the life of Gazan children at all, which is why you just farted out the idiotic post above.

[Beebs52]

Hamas has put no value on children. Are you retarded?

[silverscreenselect]

The left talks about a theoretical "War on Women" in this country. Well, this is what a real War on Women looks like.

I wonder where your similar outrage was when Russian troops were raping Ukrainian women and committing all sorts of other war crimes for the past two years. I guess that must have escaped your attention because you were too busy fawning over Putin's recruitment videos.

The situation in Gaza is a classic example of both sides being horribly wrong.

[Weyoun]

The left talks about a theoretical "War on Women" in this country. Well, this is what a real War on Women looks like.

I wonder where your similar outrage was when Russian troops were raping Ukrainian women and committing all sorts of other war crimes for the past two years. I guess that must have escaped your attention because you were too busy fawning over Putin's recruitment videos.

The situation in Gaza is a classic example of both sides being horribly wrong.

You have this all wrong. As Spock will tell you, Ukraine is a hot bet of homosexuality and transgenderism, so their women are secretly longing for the big strapping Russian boys to come in and have their way.

(At this point BiT inserts an irrelevant photo of Rachel Levine into the conversation).

And as tlynn will tell you, these Ukrainian women probably wore make up or something, so they secretly wanted it.

Awful people think that everyone else is awful, so they think that those people deserve whatever happens happens to them.

[tlynn78]

Awful people think that everyone else is awful, so they think that those people deserve whatever happens happens to them.

Read the bold; now read just a small sampling of your own posts.
Physician, heal theyself.

[Weyoun]

Awful people think that everyone else is awful, so they think that those people deserve whatever happens happens to them.

Read the bold; now read just a small sampling of your own posts.
Physician, heal theyself.

I do not claim to be a perfect or even good person, but I don’t stoop to the level of dismissing and mocking the suffering of others. You have made it clear that you *enjoy* it when bad things happen to those with which you disagree.

[Spock]

Weyoun>>>"You have this all wrong. As Spock will tell you, Ukraine is a hot bet of homosexuality and transgenderism, so their women are secretly longing for the big strapping Russian boys to come in and have their way."<<<<

Where in the Holy F**K dark corners of the internet that you frequent did that come from? Talk about putting words in people's mouth. Sheesh.

SSS>>>>"I wonder where your similar outrage was when Russian troops were raping Ukrainian women and committing all sorts of other war crimes for the past two years."<<<

Is there some unwritten law somewhere that requires people to have exactly the same level of emotional involvement for every atrocity in the world? I happen to be more emotionally involved in the Israel thing than I am on the Ukraine thing-so suck it.

It is funny that I got exactly the response I was expecting from the usual suspects. I posted a link to a documentary film regarding sexual attacks on Jewish women on 10/7 and all I get is personal attacks on me. Nobody has watched the video or has any introspection about it.

[tlynn78]

Awful people think that everyone else is awful, so they think that those people deserve whatever happens happens to them.

Read the bold; now read just a small sampling of your own posts.
Physician, heal theyself.

I do not claim to be a perfect or even good person, but I don’t stoop to the level of dismissing and mocking the suffering of others. You have made it clear that you *enjoy* it when bad things happen to those with which you disagree.

Oh, do please point to a post where I made that clear. Any post.

[Weyoun]

Read the bold; now read just a small sampling of your own posts.
Physician, heal theyself.

I do not claim to be a perfect or even good person, but I don’t stoop to the level of dismissing and mocking the suffering of others. You have made it clear that you *enjoy* it when bad things happen to those with which you disagree.

Oh, do please point to a post where I made that clear. Any post.

Just yesterday you piled on the president for confessing feelings of depression after family members died. Did you get blackout drunk in the interim?

[Weyoun]

Weyoun>>>"You have this all wrong. As Spock will tell you, Ukraine is a hot bet of homosexuality and transgenderism, so their women are secretly longing for the big strapping Russian boys to come in and have their way."<<<<

Where in the Holy F**K dark corners of the internet that you frequent did that come from? Talk about putting words in people's mouth. Sheesh.

SSS>>>>"I wonder where your similar outrage was when Russian troops were raping Ukrainian women and committing all sorts of other war crimes for the past two years."<<<

Is there some unwritten law somewhere that requires people to have exactly the same level of emotional involvement for every atrocity in the world? I happen to be more emotionally involved in the Israel thing than I am on the Ukraine thing-so suck it.

It is funny that I got exactly the response I was expecting from the usual suspects. I posted a link to a documentary film regarding sexual attacks on Jewish women on 10/7 and all I get is personal attacks on me. Nobody has watched the video or has any introspection about it.

The problem is, we all agree that what happened in the attack is terrible, should be condemned, and that those who perpetrated it should be stopped.

Question is whether or not this current attack is really doing anything meaningful to make a difference. I think there is a reasonable argument to say that it’s actually counterproductive. To be honest, I go back-and-forth on it. I am not sure what will stop Hamas but I fear this is just making them stronger, whereas just laying siege to Gaza would have placed them in the same bind, without all the bombed children.

[Spock]

Weyoun>>"You have this all wrong. As Spock will tell you, Ukraine is a hot bet of homosexuality and transgenderism, so their women are secretly longing for the big strapping Russian boys to come in and have their way."<<<<

I see you learned from an earlier mistake, congratulations.

A few weeks ago, you made the easily verified/debunked claim that I posted videos here "Showing that the Ukrainians are all Queers."

Now, as I manifestly did not do that or post anything even close to that-that leaves egg on your face.

Now you have moved on to the realm of something I did not say-but in the dark corners of your mind that I will say at some point in the future. So it can't be checked or refuted. Cool-I guess. I guess that is great rhetorical technique in your mind

I must say that your fixation on Me/Ukrainians/Homosexuality etc is a little disturbing.

Especially given that it comes out of nowhere on your part. Just something you are attacking me with. Knock yourself out-I guess.

[tlynn78]

I do not claim to be a perfect or even good person, but I don’t stoop to the level of dismissing and mocking the suffering of others. You have made it clear that you *enjoy* it when bad things happen to those with which you disagree.

Oh, do please point to a post where I made that clear. Any post.

Just yesterday you piled on the president for confessing feelings of depression after family members died. Did you get blackout drunk in the interim?

You're so full of shit. Nowhere did I say I enjoyed it, or his suffering; you're a fecking liar. Lots of people have lived through tragedies. Most of them don't lie about them; use them for attention; use them as an excuse for more lies. He's reprehensible, and so are you. Try not projecting your own beliefs onto others - maybe that will work out better for you.

[Spock]

Weyoun>>>"Question is whether or not this current attack is really doing anything meaningful to make a difference. I think there is a reasonable argument to say that it’s actually counterproductive. To be honest, I go back-and-forth on it. I am not sure what will stop Hamas but I fear this is just making them stronger, whereas just laying siege to Gaza would have placed them in the same bind, without all the bombed children."<<<<

I don't think you deserve a serious response to this since your immediate action in this thread was to go the "Spock is a Putin Lover"-"Spock/Ukraine/Homosexuality" route long before you even approached the main topic.

But I have a couple of thoughts on this-so here goes.

1) If, after the mass atrocities of 10/7-Israel does not make a major move into Gaza they probably destroy the morale of the IDF, maybe for years. The young soldiers of the IDF are basically the same age as the music festival victims and other victims as well.

And since Israel is a small country-the degrees of separation between soldiers and victims is very small. Requiring them to sit on their hands after those atrocities against their friends and friends of friends would have simply destroyed their morale.

2) The Siege. You would not be in favor of a real siege. You would only be in favor of some sort of half-assed kinda-sorta blockade that just peters out after a while.

If Israel were to pursue any kind of real siege on Gaza-the exact same arguments would be made against that policy as are being made against the policy they actually pursued.

"It is just making Hamas stronger, It is a genocide-war on women and children, etc etc"

Might as well be hung for a dollar as a dime.

[Weyoun]

Weyoun>>>"Question is whether or not this current attack is really doing anything meaningful to make a difference. I think there is a reasonable argument to say that it’s actually counterproductive. To be honest, I go back-and-forth on it. I am not sure what will stop Hamas but I fear this is just making them stronger, whereas just laying siege to Gaza would have placed them in the same bind, without all the bombed children."<<<<

I don't think you deserve a serious response to this since your immediate action in this thread was to go the "Spock is a Putin Lover"-"Spock/Ukraine/Homosexuality" route long before you even approached the main topic.

But I have a couple of thoughts on this-so here goes.

1) If, after the mass atrocities of 10/7-Israel does not make a major move into Gaza they probably destroy the morale of the IDF, maybe for years. The young soldiers of the IDF are basically the same age as the music festival victims and other victims as well.

And since Israel is a small country-the degrees of separation between soldiers and victims is very small. Requiring them to sit on their hands after those atrocities against their friends and friends of friends would have simply destroyed their morale.

2) The Siege. You would not be in favor of a real siege. You would only be in favor of some sort of half-assed kinda-sorta blockade that just peters out after a while.

If Israel were to pursue any kind of real siege on Gaza-the exact same arguments would be made against that policy as are being made against the policy they actually pursued.

"It is just making Hamas stronger, It is a genocide-war on women and children, etc etc"

Might as well be hung for a dollar as a dime.

I think the problem is, after 25,000 people, or whatever it is, are dead, it does seem like bloodlust and vengeance, which may help with morale, but causes other problems for them.

There was some theoretical window they could’ve had deals with Saudi Arabia and the UAE. I don’t see that happening anytime soon. It nearly blew up into a large war throughout the Middle East, which the US might have been pulled into, which is definitely not in our interest.

At this point, they are no closer to getting those hostages back. Internationally there are already in a difficult position, becoming increasingly isolated. Their opinion is that they are righteous, so it doesn’t matter if everyone’s against them, but that’s a dangerous position to take.

I understand that Hamas could end this now, by simply releasing the hostages, and that if they really cared about their own people, they would do so. It’s always been clear to me that they don’t really care that much about their people, they’re too driven by ideology. But they also think that by continuing this course, Israel is actually weakening their own position, which appears to be the case.

Israel seems to be doing exactly what Hamas wants them to do, which tells me it’s probably a bad idea

[flockofseagulls104]

Weyoun>>>"Question is whether or not this current attack is really doing anything meaningful to make a difference. I think there is a reasonable argument to say that it’s actually counterproductive. To be honest, I go back-and-forth on it. I am not sure what will stop Hamas but I fear this is just making them stronger, whereas just laying siege to Gaza would have placed them in the same bind, without all the bombed children."<<<<

I don't think you deserve a serious response to this since your immediate action in this thread was to go the "Spock is a Putin Lover"-"Spock/Ukraine/Homosexuality" route long before you even approached the main topic.

But I have a couple of thoughts on this-so here goes.

1) If, after the mass atrocities of 10/7-Israel does not make a major move into Gaza they probably destroy the morale of the IDF, maybe for years. The young soldiers of the IDF are basically the same age as the music festival victims and other victims as well.

And since Israel is a small country-the degrees of separation between soldiers and victims is very small. Requiring them to sit on their hands after those atrocities against their friends and friends of friends would have simply destroyed their morale.

2) The Siege. You would not be in favor of a real siege. You would only be in favor of some sort of half-assed kinda-sorta blockade that just peters out after a while.

If Israel were to pursue any kind of real siege on Gaza-the exact same arguments would be made against that policy as are being made against the policy they actually pursued.

"It is just making Hamas stronger, It is a genocide-war on women and children, etc etc"

Might as well be hung for a dollar as a dime.

I think the problem is, after 25,000 people, or whatever it is, are dead, it does seem like bloodlust and vengeance, which may help with morale, but causes other problems for them.

There was some theoretical window they could’ve had deals with Saudi Arabia and the UAE. I don’t see that happening anytime soon. It nearly blew up into a large war throughout the Middle East, which the US might have been pulled into, which is definitely not in our interest.

At this point, they are no closer to getting those hostages back. Internationally there are already in a difficult position, becoming increasingly isolated. Their opinion is that they are righteous, so it doesn’t matter if everyone’s against them, but that’s a dangerous position to take.

I understand that Hamas could end this now, by simply releasing the hostages, and that if they really cared about their own people, they would do so. It’s always been clear to me that they don’t really care that much about their people, they’re too driven by ideology. But they also think that by continuing this course, Israel is actually weakening their own position, which appears to be the case.

Israel seems to be doing exactly what Hamas wants them to do, which tells me it’s probably a bad idea

No one here, especially those who are only driven by their ideology, has suggested even a remotely feasible plan for Israel to take, other than criticizing them. The only plan that is feasible is to destroy hamas completely now, while they can. None of you even address that they also have to deal with hezzbolah in the north, which is much more sophisticated and stronger than hamas, and ultimately with Iran. The north of Israel is all but evacuated now. With our meddling and OUR political agendas, we are helping those 2 enemies by holding Israel back from what they MUST do. They are protecting their people and nation from the animals that committed, have committed and will continue to commit atrocities that were only dreamed about by the worst of the Nazis.

[Weyoun]

Weyoun>>>"Question is whether or not this current attack is really doing anything meaningful to make a difference. I think there is a reasonable argument to say that it’s actually counterproductive. To be honest, I go back-and-forth on it. I am not sure what will stop Hamas but I fear this is just making them stronger, whereas just laying siege to Gaza would have placed them in the same bind, without all the bombed children."<<<<

I don't think you deserve a serious response to this since your immediate action in this thread was to go the "Spock is a Putin Lover"-"Spock/Ukraine/Homosexuality" route long before you even approached the main topic.

But I have a couple of thoughts on this-so here goes.

1) If, after the mass atrocities of 10/7-Israel does not make a major move into Gaza they probably destroy the morale of the IDF, maybe for years. The young soldiers of the IDF are basically the same age as the music festival victims and other victims as well.

And since Israel is a small country-the degrees of separation between soldiers and victims is very small. Requiring them to sit on their hands after those atrocities against their friends and friends of friends would have simply destroyed their morale.

2) The Siege. You would not be in favor of a real siege. You would only be in favor of some sort of half-assed kinda-sorta blockade that just peters out after a while.

If Israel were to pursue any kind of real siege on Gaza-the exact same arguments would be made against that policy as are being made against the policy they actually pursued.

"It is just making Hamas stronger, It is a genocide-war on women and children, etc etc"

Might as well be hung for a dollar as a dime.

I think the problem is, after 25,000 people, or whatever it is, are dead, it does seem like bloodlust and vengeance, which may help with morale, but causes other problems for them.

There was some theoretical window they could’ve had deals with Saudi Arabia and the UAE. I don’t see that happening anytime soon. It nearly blew up into a large war throughout the Middle East, which the US might have been pulled into, which is definitely not in our interest.

At this point, they are no closer to getting those hostages back. Internationally there are already in a difficult position, becoming increasingly isolated. Their opinion is that they are righteous, so it doesn’t matter if everyone’s against them, but that’s a dangerous position to take.

I understand that Hamas could end this now, by simply releasing the hostages, and that if they really cared about their own people, they would do so. It’s always been clear to me that they don’t really care that much about their people, they’re too driven by ideology. But they also think that by continuing this course, Israel is actually weakening their own position, which appears to be the case.

Israel seems to be doing exactly what Hamas wants them to do, which tells me it’s probably a bad idea

No one here, especially those who are only driven by their ideology, has suggested even a remotely feasible plan for Israel to take, other than criticizing them. The only plan that is feasible is to destroy hamas completely now, while they can. None of you even address that they also have to deal with hezzbolah in the north, which is much more sophisticated and stronger than hamas, and ultimately with Iran. The north of Israel is all but evacuated now. With our meddling and OUR political agendas, we are helping those 2 enemies by holding Israel back from what they MUST do. They are protecting their people and nation from the animals that committed, have committed and will continue to commit atrocities that were only dreamed about by the worst of the Nazis.

It’s weird how you like you don’t want Ukraine to fight back, even arguing by fighting back, they’re putting their own lives in danger, and thus it is immoral to support a Ukrainian war effort, but you would have the whole Middle East go up into flames. Why is that?

[Spock]

Weyoun>>>"It’s weird how you like you don’t want Ukraine to fight back"<<<<

Has anybody here ever said they don't want Ukraine to fight back or is your little weasel word there "Like?"

Flock>>>"No one here, especially those who are only driven by their ideology, has suggested even a remotely feasible plan for Israel to take, other than criticizing them."<<<

This right here hits the nail on the head.

[Weyoun]

Weyoun>>>"It’s weird how you like you don’t want Ukraine to fight back"<<<<

Has anybody here ever said they don't want Ukraine to fight back or is your little weasel word there "Like?"

Flock>>>"No one here, especially those who are only driven by their ideology, has suggested even a remotely feasible plan for Israel to take, other than criticizing them."<<<

This right here hits the nail on the head.

Flock, in fact, said it was immoral for us to arm Ukraine, since it meant that the war would continue and thus more Ukrainians would die. He probably is on the same listserv that MTG gets from Moscow.

[Spock]

Weyoun>>>"It’s weird how you like you don’t want Ukraine to fight back"<<<<

Has anybody here ever said they don't want Ukraine to fight back or is your little weasel word there "Like?"

Flock>>>"No one here, especially those who are only driven by their ideology, has suggested even a remotely feasible plan for Israel to take, other than criticizing them."<<<

This right here hits the nail on the head.

Flock, in fact, said it was immoral for us to arm Ukraine, since it meant that the war would continue and thus more Ukrainians would die. He probably is on the same listserv that MTG gets from Moscow.

Anyway, back to Israel.

Define what kind of siege you would be in favor of.

Would you have favored a real old-fashioned siege where all inputs (to the extent possible) are kept out of Gaza. Food, water, power, medical supplies etc?

If not-how do you envision that a half-assed, kinda-sorta siege would have worked against Hamas?

[Weyoun]

Weyoun>>>"It’s weird how you like you don’t want Ukraine to fight back"<<<<

Has anybody here ever said they don't want Ukraine to fight back or is your little weasel word there "Like?"

Flock>>>"No one here, especially those who are only driven by their ideology, has suggested even a remotely feasible plan for Israel to take, other than criticizing them."<<<

This right here hits the nail on the head.

Flock, in fact, said it was immoral for us to arm Ukraine, since it meant that the war would continue and thus more Ukrainians would die. He probably is on the same listserv that MTG gets from Moscow.

Anyway, back to Israel.

Define what kind of siege you would be in favor of.

Would you have favored a real old-fashioned siege where all inputs (to the extent possible) are kept out of Gaza. Food, water, power, medical supplies etc?

If not-how do you envision that a half-assed, kinda-sorta siege would have worked against Hamas?

What kind of siege? Holding off most supplies. I think food and medicine could go through, but the other stuff that makes life, functional, no. You might say it wouldn’t work, but then, it’s been months, and those hostages are still being held hostage, so the bombing a bunch of folks approach doesn’t seem to be working either.

If the secret goal is to destroy the Gaza strip as a political entity, good luck with that. You have a bunch of people who live there who need to go somewhere, and you can’t expect to occupy the whole area without significant resistance. But that wouldn’t be freeing the hostages, would it?

[silverscreenselect]

Question is whether or not this current attack is really doing anything meaningful to make a difference. I think there is a reasonable argument to say that it’s actually counterproductive. To be honest, I go back-and-forth on it. I am not sure what will stop Hamas but I fear this is just making them stronger, whereas just laying siege to Gaza would have placed them in the same bind, without all the bombed children.

What Israel has done brings to mind the old saying, "you broke it, you bought it." It's become increasingly clear that Israel had no real plan either for eliminating Hamas, getting the hostages back, or dealing with Gaza after the war. And yet Flock and Spock think it's up to Weyoun and me to come up with a better plan.

[flockofseagulls104]

Question is whether or not this current attack is really doing anything meaningful to make a difference. I think there is a reasonable argument to say that it’s actually counterproductive. To be honest, I go back-and-forth on it. I am not sure what will stop Hamas but I fear this is just making them stronger, whereas just laying siege to Gaza would have placed them in the same bind, without all the bombed children.

What Israel has done brings to mind the old saying, "you broke it, you bought it." It's become increasingly clear that Israel had no real plan either for eliminating Hamas, getting the hostages back, or dealing with Gaza after the war. And yet Flock and Spock think it's up to Weyoun and me to come up with a better plan.

Yes, it is. You have absolutely no idea what plan Israel is executing. All you are doing is disseminating what their opposition wants you to disseminate. If you have a better plan, then present it.

I have stated mine, which I think should be our nation's stance. Either all Hamas leadership and terrorists surrender unconditionally and all remaining hostages are released immediately, or we will support any action against Hamas that Israel chooses to execute. That message should be broadcast widely throughout Gaza, warning the populace of what's coming. Hamas has shown by its actions and atrocities that it does not belong as an entity in the civilized world.

[kroxquo]

Question is whether or not this current attack is really doing anything meaningful to make a difference. I think there is a reasonable argument to say that it’s actually counterproductive. To be honest, I go back-and-forth on it. I am not sure what will stop Hamas but I fear this is just making them stronger, whereas just laying siege to Gaza would have placed them in the same bind, without all the bombed children.

What Israel has done brings to mind the old saying, "you broke it, you bought it." It's become increasingly clear that Israel had no real plan either for eliminating Hamas, getting the hostages back, or dealing with Gaza after the war. And yet Flock and Spock think it's up to Weyoun and me to come up with a better plan.

Yes, it is. You have absolutely no idea what plan Israel is executing. All you are doing is disseminating what their opposition wants you to disseminate. If you have a better plan, then present it.

I have stated mine, which I think should be our nation's stance. Either all Hamas leadership and terrorists surrender unconditionally and all remaining hostages are released immediately, or we will support any action against Hamas that Israel chooses to execute. That message should be broadcast widely throughout Gaza, warning the populace of what's coming. Hamas has shown by its actions and atrocities that it does not belong as an entity in the civilized world.

We warn the population what's coming. Then what? What are the people of Palestine supposed to do with this warning. There is no where left for them to hide or go. Israel's actions are going to lead to a whole new generation who believes that Israel is their mortal enemy unless genocide of the Palestinians is the goal of the Israeli government. I as an American am not willing to throw my support behind that.

[Spock]

Kroxquo>>>"There is no where left for them to hide or go. Israel's actions are going to lead to a whole new generation who believes that Israel is their mortal enemy"<<<<


Please provide evidence that, prior to 10/7, the vast majority of Gazans did not already believe that Israel was their mortal enemy.

And that the younger age groups held a more moderate view on Israel. Thus the only thing that radicalizes them is the 10/7 response.

I don't think there is much evidence that the Gazan youth held moderate views on Israel prior to 10/7.

It seems that an awful lot of them held pretty radical views and they certainly acted on10/7 like already they viewed Israel as their mortal enemy.

But, I know. It is an article of faith on the left that whatever Israel does just creates more enemies. The only response you would have been happy with would have been for them to just do nothing and bend over and take it again whenever Hamas/Hezbollah wants to do it again.