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The chimp who supposedly learned American Sign Language and used it in communicating with her handlers.

earendel wrote:The chimp who supposedly learned American Sign Language and used it in communicating with her handlers.

There was no "supposedly" about it. I knew Washoe, and I knew Dr. Roger Fouts, who was her guardian and protector when they were at the University of Oklahoma before they left for Washington. As a staff member in what then was the News Services Office, I wrote many news stories and features about them. The saddest day of that job was when I had to announce to the world that her baby, Sequoyah, had died. Science lost something that day, too, because everyone in the field wanted to find out if Washoe would teach sign language to her son, or if he would pick it up by observation of her with humans.

Washoe's loudest detractor at that time probably was Noam Chomsky, who argued that the chimps who learned sign language were nothing more than primate versions of Hans the Wonder Horse, and figured out what reactions their handlers wanted through nonverbal and perhaps unconscious clues. Evidence that Washoe and others indeed understood how language operates included their combination of known words (signs) into meanings that described new things. For example, when Washoe was given watermelon for the first time, she had been taught no word, but promptly called it "water fruit." She called ducks, which she did not like, "dirty birds." "Dirty," it should be noted, was her word for excrement. And so on.

I witnessed exchanges between Dr. Fouts and Washoe that I cannot comprehend in any sense other than "conversation."

No matter what her species, Washoe was a great lady. I will grieve her passing, and I will send my personal condolences to Dr. Fouts.

silvercamaro wrote:

earendel wrote:The chimp who supposedly learned American Sign Language and used it in communicating with her handlers.

There was no "supposedly" about it. I knew Washoe, and I knew Dr. Roger Fouts, who was her guardian and protector when they were at the University of Oklahoma before they left for Washington. As a staff member in what then was the News Services Office, I wrote many news stories and features about them. The saddest day of that job was when I had to announce to the world that her baby, Sequoyah, had died. Science lost something that day, too, because everyone in the field wanted to find out if Washoe would teach sign language to her son, or if he would pick it up by observation of her with humans.

Washoe's loudest detractor at that time probably was Noam Chomsky, who argued that the chimps who learned sign language were nothing more than primate versions of Hans the Wonder Horse, and figured out what reactions their handlers wanted through nonverbal and perhaps unconscious clues. Evidence that Washoe and others indeed understood how language operates included their combination of known words (signs) into meanings that described new things. For example, when Washoe was given watermelon for the first time, she had been taught no word, but promptly called it "water fruit." She called ducks, which she did not like, "dirty birds." "Dirty," it should be noted, was her word for excrement. And so on.

I witnessed exchanges between Dr. Fouts and Washoe that I cannot comprehend in any sense other than "conversation."

No matter what her species, Washoe was a great lady. I will grieve her passing, and I will send my personal condolences to Dr. Fouts.

I said "supposedly" because the AP article had this paragraph at the end:

But there was controversy over whether the chimp was really using ASL. Cognitive scientist Steven Pinker has contended that the notion that Washoe was the first non-human to acquire a human language was without scientific support."

No mention of Chomsky, although I recall at the time the debate over Washoe's abilities. I, for one, never doubted it, but there were detractors.

earendel wrote: I said "supposedly" because the AP article had this paragraph at the end:

But there was controversy over whether the chimp was really using ASL. Cognitive scientist Steven Pinker has contended that the notion that Washoe was the first non-human to acquire a human language was without scientific support."

No mention of Chomsky, although I recall at the time the debate over Washoe's abilities. I, for one, never doubted it, but there were detractors.

I'm not familiar with Pinker's work. Perhaps he was too young to have gained prominence during the time Washoe was here. He does seem to be a Chomsky disciple, if the entry on Wikipedia is accurate. If I read one of his books, I'll let you know what I think of his arguments. If he's merely saying that Washoe may not have been the first nonhuman to acquire human language, then he may theorize that earlier gabby nonhumans simply didn't have their linguistics skills documented. I dunno. I won't accept his theorizing over what I've witnessed without some pretty strong evidence and arguments to the contrary.

silvercamaro wrote:I'm not familiar with Pinker's work. Perhaps he was too young to have gained prominence during the time Washoe was here. He does seem to be a Chomsky disciple, if the entry on Wikipedia is accurate. If I read one of his books, I'll let you know what I think of his arguments. If he's merely saying that Washoe may not have been the first nonhuman to acquire human language, then he may theorize that earlier gabby nonhumans simply didn't have their linguistics skills documented. I dunno. I won't accept his theorizing over what I've witnessed without some pretty strong evidence and arguments to the contrary.

I don't see any reason why it would be impossible for Washoe (or any other chimpanzee) to be taught ASL or to be able to demonstrate "cognitive" functions (such as putting together signs to form new words and concepts). I just wonder why no one has tried since - at least I'm not familiar with any such (aside from Koko the gorilla).

earendel wrote:
I don't see any reason why it would be impossible for Washoe (or any other chimpanzee) to be taught ASL or to be able to demonstrate "cognitive" functions (such as putting together signs to form new words and concepts). I just wonder why no one has tried since - at least I'm not familiar with any such (aside from Koko the gorilla).

It has been done many times since. Washoe and Koko got the most publicity, because they were the firsts for their respective species. While the primate lab was in operation at OU, at least a dozen -- and probably more like 15-20 -- chimpanzees were reasonably fluent in ASL. Younger researchers, on the whole, probably are more inclined to take their interests to areas that haven't yet been as thoroughly explored and that are less expensive (or have greater availability for grants.)

silvercamaro wrote:It has been done many times since. Washoe and Koko got the most publicity, because they were the firsts for their respective species. While the primate lab was in operation at OU, at least a dozen -- and probably more like 15-20 -- chimpanzees were reasonably fluent in ASL. Younger researchers, on the whole, probably are more inclined to take their interests to areas that haven't yet been as thoroughly explored and that are less expensive (or have greater availability for grants.)

I wasn't aware that the primate lab had ceased operation at OU. Was it the result of funding issues or animal rights activists?

earendel wrote:
I wasn't aware that the primate lab had ceased operation at OU. Was it the result of funding issues or animal rights activists?

Funding, jealousy, and internal politics. Long story. Most sadly, although Fouts had a legal claim to Washoe, so he could take her with him, most of the other chimpanzees were sold to commercial research outfits for experimentation with drugs and disease, including AIDS. To me, this is a major black mark for a number of people who still live in this area. If I ran into some of them tomorrow, I might kick them in the shins -- but I'd be aiming higher.

Oops. I just blew the Gandhi Award for 2008, too.

silvercamaro wrote:Oops. I just blew the Gandhi Award for 2008, too.

At least Annie's still in the running.

She's not that kind of girl!

silvercamaro wrote:
Oops. I just blew the Gandhi Award for 2008, too.

I think Mr. Gandhi would understand and forgive you, your Irish high kick.

MarleysGh0st wrote:

silvercamaro wrote:Oops. I just blew the Gandhi Award for 2008, too.

At least Annie's still in the running.

She's not that kind of girl!

No, she wouldn't kick them - she'd lambaste them in an opera.

I remember reading about Koko, and how she grieved for someone close to her, so they gave her a kitten, whom she named All Ball.

That was a cognitive act.

Ritterskoop wrote:I remember reading about Koko, and how she grieved for someone close to her, so they gave her a kitten, whom she named All Ball.

That was a cognitive act.

Actually it was All Ball's death she grieved.

I met her in the 70s.