What's so good about extending the life expectancy?

[Sir_Galahad]

I have been wondering about this for a while. I see all the wonderful things written about how we're living longer and that man's life expectancy is lengthening with every year. But, I wonder, is this really a good thing? Now, I don't mean to be a party pooper in so far as being able to enjoy your loved ones for a longer period of time. But, when looking at this from a practical standpoint, it really makes me wonder. What's the point of living longer if nothing is being done to better the quality of lives during the extended time? Nothing serious, really. From what I can see, all this extension of life is doing is putting a strain on our already burgeoning health system not to mention the strain it puts on families trying to cope with having super-elderly and invalid relatives to care for.

So, whenever I hear some ad pimping some health food that will make you live longer, it makes me wonder - will it also help to improve the quality of life during those years? Will quitting smoking and/or drinking really make a difference, as a rule? I doubt it.

So, what should we do about this? I have no clue. But, I certainly don't think that super longevity is all it's cracked up to be. I know I would not want to burden my family with all that headache. And, if I ever wind up in the position of having to have tubes sticking in me to keep me breathing and alive (in my post-life expectancy years), I would, most likely, tell them to just let nature run it's course. I'm sure many feel differently and that's fine. And, there are many, many people that are still quite lively well into their 90's (my grandmother was just such an example - she lived to be a ripe old 104). But, again, on the whole, I just don't feel that super-longevity is all that it's cracked up to be. I would be curious to find out what the percentage is of super-elderly people who are not in and out of hospitals on a regular basis or under constant care are.

And again, this is not a condemnation of elderly people. Not at all. I just watch my mother go through all the problems she has been going through of late and it made me wonder. Is it really all worth it?

[dimmzy]

This is CERTAINLY a hot potato topic .. and I hope you're not planning to run for political office in the near future!

Given that we as a country can't have any rational discussion on this topic, let's look at solutions:

1) Offer Social Security "burial" payments to people who sign Do Not Resuscitate and other forms (health proxy etc.) What incentive do people have to do the paperwork, especially if they're reluctant to address the topic in the first place?

2) Offer incentives to doctors to do preventive care with seniors. The health care system has paid hundreds of thousands of dollars in my extended family alone for ailments that could have been easily prevented...

3) Offer financial incentives to adult children who care for elderly parents.

4) Do more studies on drug interactions with seniors. How many seniors are over-medicated? I'm in a drug study myself and I can assure you, the cocktails of drugs people take are NOT tested. And a lot of senior women are over-medicated because these tiny 80-pound women are given drug doses for 180-pound males.

5) Honestly address the issue of White Senior Welfare (ie, seniors signing assets over to their children to get more government benefits). There are MANY points of view on this volatile ssue, of course, but the topic needs to be addressed. It's the No. 1 topic of my parents and their friends--all of whom are average, middle Americans.

These steps won't solve the problem, but they can address the issues. I think even a lot of seniors would agree with you. It would be interesting to see what THEY think ...

[kayrharris]

I love #3....I send $1700 a month to my brother, who matches it, to pay someone to stay with our 91 year old mother full time.


I work for an insurance company and just today we got a memo that our life illustrations will now go through age 121 instead of 95!

[Here's Fanny!]

1) Offer Social Security "burial" payments to people who sign Do Not Resuscitate and other forms (health proxy etc.) What incentive do people have to do the paperwork, especially if they're reluctant to address the topic in the first place?

"Agree to die and we'll pay to plant you?"

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but that seems a bit barbaric and not much of an incentive.

[Kazoo65]

My grandpa is 90. He lives in an assisted living center. He HATES it. He sleeps a lot. He spends his days in his room, mostly sleeping and (sometimes, when it's turned on for him-he doesn't remember how) watches TV.

He hates the food (I've seen the menus, they rotate every three weeks-BORING.) He won't participate in activities-I've tried to get him to go to Bingo when I'm volunteering-he won't.

He's got lots of health issues-diabetes, heart problems, dementia (this is really bad-he didn't remember my mom being there to see him yesterday), compression fractures in his back-which is how he wound up there in the first place, he can't hear well and doesn't know how to use his hearing aid.

I don't want to end up like THAT.

[Here's Fanny!]

I love #3....I send $1700 a month to my brother, who matches it, to pay someone to stay with our 91 year old mother full time.


I work for an insurance company and just today we got a memo that our life illustrations will now go through age 121 instead of 95!

I had no idea that caregivers got paid that well! Not saying they don't deserve it, just had no idea. I think it's great that she does well enough to be able to live at home and you and your brother are to be commended. I have a real dislike for nursing homes. Hospice, on the other hand, are angels on earth.

We are so lucky that my 91 (next month) year old Grandma is so springy that she not only lives alone, but she takes care of all of us! Seriously, 91 and she's out digging my mom's garden, hopping up on countertops to get down holiday dishes, etc. She doesn't like to drive at night, but that's about her only concession to her years.

My mom was telling me the other day how bad my aunt was looking and I said "well, Mom, she is getting up there, she's 73 now". My mom started up with something about "not like mom" and then I finished my sentence: "we all can't be eternally youthful like Grandma".

[kayrharris]

1) Offer Social Security "burial" payments to people who sign Do Not Resuscitate and other forms (health proxy etc.) What incentive do people have to do the paperwork, especially if they're reluctant to address the topic in the first place?

"Agree to die and we'll pay to plant you?"

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but that seems a bit barbaric and not much of an incentive.

LOL!! If they haven't signed a living will before they get incapacitated, it's too late. I just signed a living will and it's now about 6 pages long. It covers pulling the plug, do not resuscitate, do not give me a feeding tube, etc. etc.

When my MIL (God rest her soul) signed hers several years ago, it was about one paragraph on one page.

[Ritterskoop]

1) Offer Social Security "burial" payments to people who sign Do Not Resuscitate and other forms (health proxy etc.) What incentive do people have to do the paperwork, especially if they're reluctant to address the topic in the first place?

"Agree to die and we'll pay to plant you?"

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but that seems a bit barbaric and not much of an incentive.

The class I just finished was on healthcare law and ethics. One of the guest speakers was from an organ transfer group. They are wondering if we can improve donations by offering to pay the families $5000 toward funeral expenses, if the patient is terminal anyway. It is illegal to pay for the organs themselves, but this way there is an incentive not to prolong the inevitable.

[Here's Fanny!]

1) Offer Social Security "burial" payments to people who sign Do Not Resuscitate and other forms (health proxy etc.) What incentive do people have to do the paperwork, especially if they're reluctant to address the topic in the first place?

"Agree to die and we'll pay to plant you?"

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but that seems a bit barbaric and not much of an incentive.

LOL!! If they haven't signed a living will before they get incapacitated, it's too late. I just signed a living will and it's now about 6 pages long. It covers pulling the plug, do not resuscitate, do not give me a feeding tube, etc. etc.

When my MIL (God rest her soul) signed hers several years ago, it was about one paragraph on one page.

Ha! I thought I was misunderstanding. I was imagining them standing over somebody in the hospital making a 'you agree to jump on the Viking ship and we'll pay for the oarsmen' type thing.

[Ritterskoop]

I don't want to end up like THAT.

We don't have to. We can stay home and die peacefully, years earlier and far happier.

[Here's Fanny!]

1) Offer Social Security "burial" payments to people who sign Do Not Resuscitate and other forms (health proxy etc.) What incentive do people have to do the paperwork, especially if they're reluctant to address the topic in the first place?

"Agree to die and we'll pay to plant you?"

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but that seems a bit barbaric and not much of an incentive.

The class I just finished was on healthcare law and ethics. One of the guest speakers was from an organ transfer group. They are wondering if we can improve donations by offering to pay the families $5000 toward funeral expenses, if the patient is terminal anyway. It is illegal to pay for the organs themselves, but this way there is an incentive not to prolong the inevitable.

Now this I've never been able to understand. I'm as mercenary and pro-pecuniary gain as the next person (probably more so) but I cannot comprehend somebody wanting to be paid to give up something they're not going to be using anyway. I think it's the ultimate mitzvah, and I gotten most of my family to put the donor heart on their driver's licenses.

The main donor organization here does something similar to what you're describing, although not to the tune of 5 large. They pay for the transport from the hospital or POD to their facility in Denver and then back to the funeral home, so there's a transportation cost paid for, and they also pay some of the 'preparation' costs to the mortuary, even if the donation didn't do anything requiring extra work.

[Here's Fanny!]

I don't want to end up like THAT.

We don't have to. We can stay home and die peacefully, years earlier and far happier.

Not necessarily. Sometimes there are injuries or conditions that require medical treatment and then it just downward spirals from there.

[Ritterskoop]

Now this I've never been able to understand. I'm as mercenary and pro-pecuniary gain as the next person (probably more so) but I cannot comprehend somebody wanting to be paid to give up something they're not going to be using anyway.

I was given to understand it was more attractive to folks who were on the fence, and needed one last nudge to get them over it. I was surprised to see how many organs and tissues and stuff can be donated. Hearts must be transferred within about four hours, but kidneys can last three days sometimes.

The tissue donation part is not covered by the driver's license thing in NC because the funeral director lobby opposed it; you have to register for it online or get your family to release the ligaments, skin and stuff like that. Those are the bits that can help the most people, though. Heart valves especially, I think.

Anyway. I am not advocating it as a matter of course. I found it interesting, though. I love it when we are reminded that healthcare is a business and not a right.

They have systems in Europe where you are presumed to be a donor unless you specify otherwise, and it doesn't help all that much. There are just too many people living so long that we will never have enough organs.

For kidneys, especially, we are going to have to enlist more living donors to keep up with all the needed kidneys. And lots of folks will just have to stay on dialysis, especially if they respond well.

[Ritterskoop]

I don't want to end up like THAT.

We don't have to. We can stay home and die peacefully, years earlier and far happier.

Not necessarily. Sometimes there are injuries or conditions that require medical treatment and then it just downward spirals from there.

I understand. I did not intend to say every case is the same.

[SportsFan68]

. . .
So, whenever I hear some ad pimping some health food that will make you live longer, it makes me wonder - will it also help to improve the quality of life during those years? Will quitting smoking and/or drinking really make a difference, as a rule? I doubt it.
. . .

Yes, unequivocally, quitting smoking and drinking will make a big difference in your quality of life. Here are my mom and her siblings:

Sibling A: Never smoked or drank, but married to a smoker; he finally quit in his 40s. Dead of cancer at age 84, but active and alert until diagnosis.
Sibling B: Never smoked or drank, still kicking at age 86.
Sibling C: (This is my mom.) Smoked a lot, drank a little, from about age 28 on. Died a horrible lingering death from cancer at age 68.
Sibling D: Smoked a lot, drank a lot, dead from a heart attack in his 60s.
Sibling E: Smoked a little, drank a little, quit both in his 40s. In his late 70s now and doesn't expect to see his next birthday.
Sibling F: Smoked a lot, drank a lot, dead from a massive cardiovascular event at age 62.

[SportsFan68]

One of my dearest friends smoked into her 40s and can tell you the date she quit.

She was just diagnosed with pulmonary fibrosis and won't be around beyond the next two years or so. In the meantime, she is facing the issues that Galahad and Dimmzy bring up.

Right now, her house is owned by four people -- herself plus my (theoretical) Science PAF and her two siblings. I expect the three kids will buy her share to provide enough cash to see her out.

[Ritterskoop]

I am always sorry about your mom, Sprots.

When we talk about dying peacefully, at home, or in other ways in other places, it is often in the abstract. Like many topics, it takes on a different significance when it is about someone we know and love. That doesn't mean we should set up a system and then make exceptions for ourselves or our loved ones. It means we should arrange things so that everyone can have roughly the same best possible experience.

For most of us, that would mean we want to avoid pain. I am sorry you and your mom had to endure that pain. I hope that by the time my mom and I get to that point, we will have kinder alternatives available.

[SportsFan68]

I am always sorry about your mom, Sprots.

When we talk about dying peacefully, at home, or in other ways in other places, it is often in the abstract. Like many topics, it takes on a different significance when it is about someone we know and love. That doesn't mean we should set up a system and then make exceptions for ourselves or our loved ones. It means we should arrange things so that everyone can have roughly the same best possible experience.

For most of us, that would mean we want to avoid pain. I am sorry you and your mom had to endure that pain. I hope that by the time my mom and I get to that point, we will have kinder alternatives available.

Thanks, Skoop. Having lived through it, I'm OK with it now. You said once that there are some things that hurt until they don't hurt any more (apologies if I misquoted you). That was Mom's death. The thing is, we did the best we could, so there isn't any lingering guilt. I'm still grateful for all the help we had. She was scheduled to enter hospice the day she died. The program here is able to keep costs down because they have so many volunteers for direct patient contact, but they're still always short of funds. The last director had to quit because she couldn't afford to hire an assistant for the mountains of paperwork, and she couldn't continue the 60-hour weeks.

I do hope for kinder alternatives for you and your mom and everybody who faces a similar situation.

[dimmzy]

See, this is what I love about the bored! Intelligent discussion on a diffcult topic!

--dimmzy, whose OWN death plan calls for her to lie in state for a few days until Brad, George and Matt can arrive to pay their respects and throw themselves on her casket

[MarleysGh0st]

I love #3....I send $1700 a month to my brother, who matches it, to pay someone to stay with our 91 year old mother full time.


I work for an insurance company and just today we got a memo that our life illustrations will now go through age 121 instead of 95!

I had no idea that caregivers got paid that well! Not saying they don't deserve it, just had no idea.

She may not be getting all of that, particularly if she's been hired through a service instead of directly. My parents are paying $16 an hour for the person who comes to help MarleysMom, 20 hours a week. I think she gets $10 of that, with the rest going to her benefits, the agency overhead and profit, etc.

[nitrah55]

This is a hot topic for me, because (as you may know) my mom died last month. She was 90, and had broken her hip last September. Her death was directly caused by a kidney infection, which, on paper, doesn't look related.

Until her fall, Mom had been very independent. Still driving, doing an errand or two a day, and taking an afternoon nap. Not a ball of fire, surely slowing down, but having a quiet, pleasant life.

When she broke her hip, she was suddenly in the hospital/nursing home circuit, with no chance of getting back to the life she had led. As much as she could walk some after physical therapy, she wouldn't have been able to go back home because there were too many stairways in the house.

And, the doctors were determined to treat every ailment she had- to the point where she was taking medicines to counter-act the side effects of the medicines that were supposed to treat her ailments. And she was getting steadily more depressed and physically frail.

Only by switching doctors did we learn that she had a problem with her parathyroid- her body was not processing calcium correctly, which accounted for her kidney stones and depression and memory issues and...you get the picture. Medication for the parathyroid improved her condition to the point where she was writing letters- in her impeccable handwriting- again.

It was at this point, when she was feeling better than she had in many months, that she said that what she wanted was to just stay in a nursing home, rather than assisted living. She wanted someone, she said, to bring her meals. Had I been listening carefully, I would have realized what she was really saying: I'm ready to go. She was not depressed or anxious, she knew what was coming, and she was ready.

The end came fast. The infection took her in about a day and a half. We had discussed the DNR months before. I was with her for the last few hours, and was consulting with her doctor when she died.

It's odd, but had she not fallen, and maybe gotten the infection while she was still active, it would have been a lot tougher. We would not have had the inclination to show by word and deed, how much we loved each other. Her fall got us ready for what was coming- a very heavily disguised blessing.

People really have to decide for themselves what they want from their lives. All most doctors will do is keep you alive.

[kayrharris]

Thanks Nitrah. Very profound and thought provoking. I appreciate your sharing that with us.

[eyégor]

I can only go on family experiences. My grandmother was 100 when she died. The family thought they'd be funny and sat my wife right in front of the open coffin at the funeral (very small & intimate). She remarked that my grandmother had better skin than she did. My grandma spent the last 25 years in a nursing home, but it wasn't physical. She withdrew all her mental chips from the game after my grandfather died.

Her brother Bill put a roof on my cousin's house a week before he died. He was 95.

Her sister lived in a second floor flat until she was 104.

My grandfather died youngest of his siblings. The rest all made it to the mid 80s, and required no long term care. Aunt Ritie lived to her mid 90s, and lived(by choice) her last 10 years with a niece.

A quick side note on Ritie. She got her unusual name because her sister Cloe was left handed. Since she was always called Ritie, when the church burnt to the ground, taking the baptismal records with it, no one could remember her real name.

Going back another generation, Uncle Elias was living with his son in SoCal when one day he got up and started packing a suitcase. his son came in and asked him what he was doing. He told him he was going back to New York to visit the family, because if he didn't do it in the next few years, he might not get the opportunity.

He was 106 at the time.

I have more, but sufficed to say, we pretty much go till we drop in my family.

One final note. My wife's grandmother died at 90 from a staph infection she received when she had a catheterization done. She had it done as a preventative measure. Sh had had hip replacement surgery at 84. Because of the new hip, she was able to wash the kitchen floor the night before she got sick. On her hands and knees, just like always.


Postscript to Nitrah - Often it is the breaking hip that causes the fall instead of the other way around. Not that the result is any different.

[littlebeast13]

I just love reading threads like this.

People in my family, on both sides, are lucky to make it to 70, and I can't think of a single octagenarian.... ever. My three deceased grandparents died at the ages of 66, 59, and 43......

But hey, at least I'm in great shape (cough, cough!)......

lb13

[Bob Juch]

My father is 91 and plays a round of golf almost every day.

His father made it only to 79 because he had been hit while crossing the street three times!

My great-grandmother on that side almost made it to 100.

Her mother made it to 86.