WWTBAM Bored

Is there an antidote for dinitrophenol? I don't mean treatment, I mean something that will reverse its effects.

Sounds like a trip to the ER is warrented.

Is this a casual question, or did someone accidentally ingest this material?

Bob Juch wrote:Is there an antidote for dinitrophenol? I don't mean treatment, I mean something that will reverse its effects.

You can read this while waiting on Jeff,

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp ... bookmark07

The toxicokinetics of 2,4-DNP in humans and animals have not been studied systematically. The available data from human case reports and experimental animal studies indicate that 2,4-DNP is readily absorbed by the oral and inhalation routes, and possibly by the derrnal route. Some evidence about distribution is available suggesting that a portion of the 2,4-DNP in the blood is bound to serum proteins and that the unbound fraction enters organs such as the eye. 2,4-DNP is rapidly metabolized via reduction of the nitro groups; the parent compound and metabolites are excreted in the urine.

Jeff is in Washington DC. Do you want me to call him?

Bob Juch wrote:Is there an antidote for dinitrophenol? I don't mean treatment, I mean something that will reverse its effects.

I sincerely hope this is information you need for a screenplay, not treatment for anyone you know.

silvercamaro wrote:

Bob Juch wrote:Is there an antidote for dinitrophenol? I don't mean treatment, I mean something that will reverse its effects.

I sincerely hope this is information you need for a screenplay, not treatment for anyone you know.

Yes.

PlacentiaSoccerMom wrote:Jeff is in Washington DC. Do you want me to call him?

No, just ask him the next time you talk to him, thanks.

Bob Juch wrote:Is there an antidote for dinitrophenol? I don't mean treatment, I mean something that will reverse its effects.

Food can mitigate the effects, but there is no antidote. Jeff said that you can die if you take too much.

PlacentiaSoccerMom wrote:

Bob Juch wrote:Is there an antidote for dinitrophenol? I don't mean treatment, I mean something that will reverse its effects.

Food can mitigate the effects, but there is no antidote. Jeff said that you can die if you take too much.

I would think food would make things worse as what happens is the food in you is "burned" immediately thus raising your temperature so high that you cook from the inside out.

I'll read the content of the thread presently...

Just to comment that there is a certain mild pleasure in seeing or hearing a page for another doctor.

Doesn't quite reach the level of "schadenfreude", but perhaps one could coin a term "pagenfruede"..

The pleasure is particular, say, at ten to six on Friday PM...

That pleasure is reversed when one finds that doctor is unavailable. But I can safely say I know absolutely nothing about this stuff, except that a brief Pubmed search yields all sorts of astonishment.

I also hope this is a hypothetical and not a real phenomenon; with enough control of a fictional plot, one can employ an imaginary drug "just like DNP" which allows you control of what the chemical can and can not in fact do, and whether there are antidotes, and so on. . The dilithium factor, in other words.

Even in the absence of "antidotes", there is always good old "general supportive care" to save a life....

NB a real person should probably seek real care. Now..

Paging Dr. Koddick, Dr. Cy Koddick.

"Calling Dr. Howard, Dr. Fine, Dr. Howard!"

I edited Jeff's comment to me about the issue, he started talking about mitochondrial efficiencies and my brain just glazed over. Plus I had stuff to talk to him about regarding the girls and to me that took priority.

All I do know is that I wouldn't want anyone messing with MY mitochondria, even though if I were a mouse, I would live longer.

I am not aware of any antidote for dinitrophenol (DNP), and I doubt that one exists.

It is possible that hemodialysis would help, but there are two problems with this answer:
1) Dialysis still is not an antidote; it is more of an advanced supportive treatment. Therefore, it wouldn't really be answering your question.
2) DNP might not be water-soluble enough for dialysis to be an effective therapy. Part of the way DNP works is by dissolving into membranes, which strongly implies that it is more fat-soluble than water-soluble. Now, that doesn't rule-out the possibility that dialysis could help, although it lowers it considerably. On the other hand, DNP is a small enough molecule that it ought to be freely dialyzable, and this increases the chance that dialysis would help.

Bob Juch wrote:I would think food would make things worse as what happens is the food in you is "burned" immediately thus raising your temperature so high that you cook from the inside out.

Well, the other option (i.e., not eating anything) certainly wouldn't help either! :p

The problem with DNP is that your mitochondria become less efficient in making ATP, and this energy is instead released as heat. This is great if your intention is to lose weight, provided you don't overdose. In a person with significant DNP toxicity, their underlying problem is that they don't have enough ATP. Withholding food/caloric intake will not help this situation at all, but can only make things worse. Providing the patient with loads of calories, such that they might possibly be able to make enough ATP via their inefficient mitochondria seems eminently logical to me. I would combine this with active cooling measures. Depending on how sick the person was, this might involve putting them on a cooling blanket, cool mist + fanning, lavaging their peritoneal cavity, bladder, or thoracic cavity with cooled saline, or even putting them on cardiopulmonary bypass. Some of the more invasive methods might make for a dramatic touch to the story.

Ok, Jeff, you don't even call me, but you come here and post?

jsuchard wrote:I am not aware of any antidote for dinitrophenol (DNP), and I doubt that one exists.

It is possible that hemodialysis would help, but there are two problems with this answer:
1) Dialysis still is not an antidote; it is more of an advanced supportive treatment. Therefore, it wouldn't really be answering your question.
2) DNP might not be water-soluble enough for dialysis to be an effective therapy. Part of the way DNP works is by dissolving into membranes, which strongly implies that it is more fat-soluble than water-soluble. Now, that doesn't rule-out the possibility that dialysis could help, although it lowers it considerably. On the other hand, DNP is a small enough molecule that it ought to be freely dialyzable, and this increases the chance that dialysis would help.

Bob Juch wrote:I would think food would make things worse as what happens is the food in you is "burned" immediately thus raising your temperature so high that you cook from the inside out.

Well, the other option (i.e., not eating anything) certainly wouldn't help either! :p

The problem with DNP is that your mitochondria become less efficient in making ATP, and this energy is instead released as heat. This is great if your intention is to lose weight, provided you don't overdose. In a person with significant DNP toxicity, their underlying problem is that they don't have enough ATP. Withholding food/caloric intake will not help this situation at all, but can only make things worse. Providing the patient with loads of calories, such that they might possibly be able to make enough ATP via their inefficient mitochondria seems eminently logical to me. I would combine this with active cooling measures. Depending on how sick the person was, this might involve putting them on a cooling blanket, cool mist + fanning, lavaging their peritoneal cavity, bladder, or thoracic cavity with cooled saline, or even putting them on cardiopulmonary bypass. Some of the more invasive methods might make for a dramatic touch to the story.

That would make a good "House", but I'm just looking for a good way to bump somone off.

Thanks!

jsuchard wrote:The problem with DNP is that your mitochondria become less efficient in making ATP, and this energy is instead released as heat. This is great if your intention is to lose weight, provided you don't overdose. In a person with significant DNP toxicity, their underlying problem is that they don't have enough ATP. Withholding food/caloric intake will not help this situation at all, but can only make things worse. Providing the patient with loads of calories, such that they might possibly be able to make enough ATP via their inefficient mitochondria seems eminently logical to me. I would combine this with active cooling measures. Depending on how sick the person was, this might involve putting them on a cooling blanket, cool mist + fanning, lavaging their peritoneal cavity, bladder, or thoracic cavity with cooled saline, or even putting them on cardiopulmonary bypass. Some of the more invasive methods might make for a dramatic touch to the story.

Sounds like a plan. Can I get an appointment for early next week? How much is my co-pay? Do you take American Express? Will this help my buzzer speed?

TheConfessor wrote:

jsuchard wrote:The problem with DNP is that your mitochondria become less efficient in making ATP, and this energy is instead released as heat. This is great if your intention is to lose weight, provided you don't overdose. In a person with significant DNP toxicity, their underlying problem is that they don't have enough ATP. Withholding food/caloric intake will not help this situation at all, but can only make things worse. Providing the patient with loads of calories, such that they might possibly be able to make enough ATP via their inefficient mitochondria seems eminently logical to me. I would combine this with active cooling measures. Depending on how sick the person was, this might involve putting them on a cooling blanket, cool mist + fanning, lavaging their peritoneal cavity, bladder, or thoracic cavity with cooled saline, or even putting them on cardiopulmonary bypass. Some of the more invasive methods might make for a dramatic touch to the story.

Sounds like a plan. Can I get an appointment for early next week? How much is my co-pay? Do you take American Express? Will this help my buzzer speed?

No, but your heat bill will be less in the winter.

Bob Juch wrote:That would make a good "House", but I'm just looking for a good way to bump somone off.

You mean you're not writing a script for "House"?

Darn! I was looking forward to this episode!

MarleysGh0st wrote:

Bob Juch wrote:That would make a good "House", but I'm just looking for a good way to bump somone off.

You mean you're not writing a script for "House"?

Darn! I was looking forward to this episode!

Hey, maybe I will see if I can get that gig!

Bob Juch wrote:

MarleysGh0st wrote:

Bob Juch wrote:That would make a good "House", but I'm just looking for a good way to bump somone off.

You mean you're not writing a script for "House"?

Darn! I was looking forward to this episode!

Hey, maybe I will see if I can get that gig!

Look at all the Bored docs you could use as resources!

PlacentiaSoccerMom wrote:Ok, Jeff, you don't even call me, but you come here and post?

funny how we can have 'that tone' when they are just words on a page, ain't it?

My intention was to sound like a nagging shrew.

Because while he's off in DC eating expensive meals with Admirals, I am at home dealing with all of the usual crap. Actually this week there is more than the usual crap because the Quiz Bowl situation has sort of blown itself into a soap opera, that is almost too bizarre to be believed.

PlacentiaSoccerMom wrote:My intention was to sound like a nagging shrew.

Because while he's off in DC eating expensive meals with Admirals, I am at home dealing with all of the usual crap. Actually this week there is more than the usual crap because the Quiz Bowl situation has sort of blown itself into a soap opera, that is almost too bizarre to be believed.

Oh, oh! Do tell!