FBI is raiding Mar-a-Lago

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Re: FBI is raiding Mar-a-Lago

#101 Post by jarnon » Fri Aug 26, 2022 10:36 am


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Re: FBI is raiding Mar-a-Lago

#102 Post by silverscreenselect » Fri Aug 26, 2022 11:02 am

One thing I heard today in the discussion about the affidavit deals with the spurious claim raised by Kash Patel and others (though apparently not by Trump himself) that he could just issue a standing order or wave his hand over documents to declassify them. If a document is declassified for any reason, then it isn't just declassified for Donald Trump and/or someone he specifically designates to look at them. It means they are declassified to the public at large and subject to a Freedom of Information Act request. That means that anyone could request the dozens of secret and top secret defense information documents that were removed from Mar-a-Lago.

I doubt you'd find any bureaucrat or judge willing to release those documents to the Iranian or Russian ambassadors to the United States.
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Re: FBI is raiding Mar-a-Lago

#103 Post by jarnon » Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:32 pm

Here is another legal brief from DOJ:

United States’ Response to Motion for Judicial Oversight and Additional Relief

It mostly rehashes facts we already knew. Of interest:
  • Page 10: DOJ learned that there were still documents marked classified at Mar-a-Lago after Trump’s attorneys swore they had all been returned. This belies Trump’s claim that he was cooperative and would have handed over everything if the government was more patient. Also, boxes were moved in and out of the storage room, which is the basis for the obstruction charge.
  • Pages 39-40: There are presidential records in the National Archives that are torn up; some have been taped together. This confirms news reports that Trump destroyed documents.
  • Page 54: A photo showing how Trump sloppily stored sensitive documents along with personal memorabilia. It doesn’t add much to the case, but it has more of an impact on social media than a boring legal brief.
The legal issues concerning executive privilege and attorney-client privilege are complicated. Even if DOJ hands some privileged presidential records to the National Archives (not to Trump!) and returns some personal belongings to Trump, they’ll still have plenty of evidence to build a criminal case.

I’d like to know what the Mar-a-Lago security videos reveal. Maybe some Mar-a-Lago employees moved boxes around without authorization from Trump or his attorneys. They could even be undocumented immigrants who don’t read English and didn’t know what they were handling.
Last edited by jarnon on Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: FBI is raiding Mar-a-Lago

#104 Post by Bob78164 » Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:51 pm

jarnon wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:32 pm
Here is another legal brief from DOJ:

United States’ Response to Motion for Judicial Oversight and Additional Relief

It mostly rehashes facts we already knew. Of interest:
  • Page 10: DOJ learned that there were still documents marked classified at Mar-a-Lago after Trump’s attorneys swore they had all been returned. This belies Trump’s claim that he was cooperative and would have handed over everything if the government was more patient. Also, boxes were moved in and out of the storage room, which is the basis for the obstruction charge.
  • Pages 39-40: There are presidential records in the National Archives that are torn up; some have been taped together. This confirms news reports that Trump destroyed documents.
  • Page 54: A photo showing how Trump sloppily stored sensitive documents along with personal memorabilia. It doesn’t add much to the case, but it has more of an impact on social media than a boring legal brief.
The legal issues concerning executive privilege and attorney-client privilege are complicated. Even if DOJ hands some privileged presidential records to the National Archives (not to Trump!) and returns some personal belongings to Trump, they’ll still have plenty of evidence to build a criminal case.

I’d like to know what the Mar-a-Lago security videos reveal. Maybe some Mar-a-Lago employees moved boxes around without authorization from Trump or his attorneys. They could even be undocumented immigrants who don’t read English didn’t know what they were handling.
At least one of Donny's attorneys, who may or may not have had clearance to read sensitive materials, swore that just days before the search warrant was executed, she had access to many of the areas where National Defense Information was later found. One of those areas was Donny's desk. --Bob
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Re: FBI is raiding Mar-a-Lago

#105 Post by silverscreenselect » Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:00 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:51 pm
jarnon wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:32 pm
Here is another legal brief from DOJ:

I’d like to know what the Mar-a-Lago security videos reveal. Maybe some Mar-a-Lago employees moved boxes around without authorization from Trump or his attorneys. They could even be undocumented immigrants who don’t read English didn’t know what they were handling.
At least one of Donny's attorneys, who may or may not have had clearance to read sensitive materials, swore that just days before the search warrant was executed, she had access to many of the areas where National Defense Information was later found. One of those areas was Donny's desk. --Bob
Trump's defense is likely to be that he didn't know what people were doing or what documents were involved. The usual procedure in cases like this is to squeeze the little fish in hopes of them turning on the big fish. In this case, the attorneys are squarely on the hook for the sworn documents they've signed. The DOJ is probably looking for as much evidence as possible about Trump's personal involvement with the documents.

The big question is just what he wanted to do with them. My own view is slightly more benign than those of many, and that's that Trump wanted this material so he could still feel important and not that he had any plans to sell or give it to a foreign government. Of course, that doesn't mean he might not show them off to one of his golfing buddies or a wealthy campaign donor who may or may not have been a foreign agent just to bolster his ego.
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Re: FBI is raiding Mar-a-Lago

#106 Post by jarnon » Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:01 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:51 pm
At least one of Donny's attorneys, who may or may not have had clearance to read sensitive materials, swore that just days before the search warrant was executed, she had access to many of the areas where National Defense Information was later found. One of those areas was Donny's desk. --Bob
Attorneys (other than those on this Bored) have been known to lie.

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Re: FBI is raiding Mar-a-Lago

#107 Post by BackInTex » Wed Aug 31, 2022 2:14 pm

jarnon wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 1:01 pm
Bob78164 wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:51 pm
At least one of Donny's attorneys, who may or may not have had clearance to read sensitive materials, swore that just days before the search warrant was executed, she had access to many of the areas where National Defense Information was later found. One of those areas was Donny's desk. --Bob
Attorneys (other than those on this Bored) have been known to lie.

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Re: FBI is raiding Mar-a-Lago

#108 Post by Bob Juch » Wed Aug 31, 2022 7:25 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:51 pm
jarnon wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:32 pm
Here is another legal brief from DOJ:

United States’ Response to Motion for Judicial Oversight and Additional Relief

It mostly rehashes facts we already knew. Of interest:
  • Page 10: DOJ learned that there were still documents marked classified at Mar-a-Lago after Trump’s attorneys swore they had all been returned. This belies Trump’s claim that he was cooperative and would have handed over everything if the government was more patient. Also, boxes were moved in and out of the storage room, which is the basis for the obstruction charge.
  • Pages 39-40: There are presidential records in the National Archives that are torn up; some have been taped together. This confirms news reports that Trump destroyed documents.
  • Page 54: A photo showing how Trump sloppily stored sensitive documents along with personal memorabilia. It doesn’t add much to the case, but it has more of an impact on social media than a boring legal brief.
The legal issues concerning executive privilege and attorney-client privilege are complicated. Even if DOJ hands some privileged presidential records to the National Archives (not to Trump!) and returns some personal belongings to Trump, they’ll still have plenty of evidence to build a criminal case.

I’d like to know what the Mar-a-Lago security videos reveal. Maybe some Mar-a-Lago employees moved boxes around without authorization from Trump or his attorneys. They could even be undocumented immigrants who don’t read English didn’t know what they were handling.
At least one of Donny's attorneys, who may or may not have had clearance to read sensitive materials, swore that just days before the search warrant was executed, she had access to many of the areas where National Defense Information was later found. One of those areas was Donny's desk. --Bob
She swore not that she just had access to those areas, but that she searched them and did not find an secret documents. I'd say at a minimum, her law license is in Jeopardy.
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Re: FBI is raiding Mar-a-Lago

#109 Post by Bob78164 » Wed Aug 31, 2022 7:37 pm

Bob Juch wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 7:25 pm
Bob78164 wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:51 pm
jarnon wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 12:32 pm
Here is another legal brief from DOJ:

United States’ Response to Motion for Judicial Oversight and Additional Relief

It mostly rehashes facts we already knew. Of interest:
  • Page 10: DOJ learned that there were still documents marked classified at Mar-a-Lago after Trump’s attorneys swore they had all been returned. This belies Trump’s claim that he was cooperative and would have handed over everything if the government was more patient. Also, boxes were moved in and out of the storage room, which is the basis for the obstruction charge.
  • Pages 39-40: There are presidential records in the National Archives that are torn up; some have been taped together. This confirms news reports that Trump destroyed documents.
  • Page 54: A photo showing how Trump sloppily stored sensitive documents along with personal memorabilia. It doesn’t add much to the case, but it has more of an impact on social media than a boring legal brief.
The legal issues concerning executive privilege and attorney-client privilege are complicated. Even if DOJ hands some privileged presidential records to the National Archives (not to Trump!) and returns some personal belongings to Trump, they’ll still have plenty of evidence to build a criminal case.

I’d like to know what the Mar-a-Lago security videos reveal. Maybe some Mar-a-Lago employees moved boxes around without authorization from Trump or his attorneys. They could even be undocumented immigrants who don’t read English didn’t know what they were handling.
At least one of Donny's attorneys, who may or may not have had clearance to read sensitive materials, swore that just days before the search warrant was executed, she had access to many of the areas where National Defense Information was later found. One of those areas was Donny's desk. --Bob
She swore not that she just had access to those areas, but that she searched them and did not find an secret documents. I'd say at a minimum, her law license is in Jeopardy.
I don't think she said anything about finding or not finding secret documents. This search was in response to a subpoena from the New York Attorney General, who wasn't looking for National Defense Information. --Bob
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Re: FBI is raiding Mar-a-Lago

#110 Post by silverscreenselect » Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:16 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 7:37 pm
Bob Juch wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 7:25 pm
She swore not that she just had access to those areas, but that she searched them and did not find any secret documents. I'd say at a minimum, her law license is in Jeopardy.
I don't think she said anything about finding or not finding secret documents. This search was in response to a subpoena from the New York Attorney General, who wasn't looking for National Defense Information. --Bob
New York Times wrote:At least one lawyer for former President Donald J. Trump signed a written statement in June asserting that all material marked as classified and held in boxes in a storage area at Mr. Trump’s Mar-a-Lago residence and club had been returned to the government, four people with knowledge of the document said. The written declaration was made after a visit on June 3 to Mar-a-Lago by Jay I. Bratt, the top counterintelligence official in the Justice Department’s national security division.

The existence of the signed declaration, which has not previously been reported, is a possible indication that Mr. Trump or his team were not fully forthcoming with federal investigators about the material. And it could help explain why a potential violation of a criminal statute related to obstruction was cited by the department as one basis for seeking the warrant used to carry out the daylong search of the former president’s home on Monday, an extraordinary step that generated political shock waves.

Mr. Trump returned 15 boxes of material [to the National Archives] in January of this year. When archivists examined the material, they found many pages of documents with classified markings and referred the matter to the Justice Department, which began an investigation and convened a grand jury.In the spring, the department issued a subpoena to Mr. Trump seeking additional documents that it believed may have been in his possession. The former president was repeatedly urged by advisers to return what remained, despite what they described as his desire to continue to hold onto some documents. In an effort to resolve the dispute, Mr. Bratt and other officials visited Mar-a-Lago in Palm Beach, Fla., in early June, briefly meeting Mr. Trump while they were there. Two of Mr. Trump’s lawyers, M. Evan Corcoran and Christina Bobb, spoke with Mr. Bratt and a small number of investigators he traveled with, people briefed on the meeting said.

Mr. Corcoran and Ms. Bobb showed Mr. Bratt and his team boxes holding material Mr. Trump had taken from the White House that were being kept in a storage area, the people said. According to two people briefed on the visit, Mr. Bratt and his team left with additional material marked classified, and around that time also obtained the written declaration from a Trump lawyer attesting that all the material marked classified in the boxes had been turned over.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/13/us/p ... l-fbi.html

"Attesting" means that the statement is sworn and subject to perjury sanctions. For an attorney it would also subject them to disciplinary sanctions, including disbarment.
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Re: FBI is raiding Mar-a-Lago

#111 Post by Bob Juch » Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:37 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:16 pm
Bob78164 wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 7:37 pm
Bob Juch wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 7:25 pm
She swore not that she just had access to those areas, but that she searched them and did not find any secret documents. I'd say at a minimum, her law license is in Jeopardy.
I don't think she said anything about finding or not finding secret documents. This search was in response to a subpoena from the New York Attorney General, who wasn't looking for National Defense Information. --Bob
You're right. It seems the two subpoenas were conflated by the report I read.
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Re: FBI is raiding Mar-a-Lago

#112 Post by jarnon » Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:53 am

Trump’s lawyers dug a deeper hole replied to DOJ’s brief on how the documents seized from Mar-a-Lago should be handled.

Movant’s Reply to United States’ Response to Motion For Judicial Oversight and Additional Relief

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Re: FBI is raiding Mar-a-Lago

#113 Post by silverscreenselect » Thu Sep 01, 2022 1:17 pm

jarnon wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 11:53 am
Trump’s lawyers dug a deeper hole replied to DOJ’s brief on how the documents seized from Mar-a-Lago should be handled.

Movant’s Reply to United States’ Response to Motion For Judicial Oversight and Additional Relief
Trump's lawyer Alina Habba appeared on Sean Hannity last night complaining about the photo taken of the classified documents. Her claim was that the FBU staged the photo to make Trump look bad, like he left classified documents lying around the floor of his office. Of course, it's standard for police to take photos of evidence they seize in any criminal raid, which doesn't mean for example that drug dealers leave stuff all over the ground where the picture was taken.

However, Habba really hurt Trump's cause in a couple of ways. First, she admitted that she had been in the office and was familiar with where these documents were kept, which means the statement that they had turned over all the classified documents was a lie. Second, she stated that Trump frequently had guests in the office, which means that these people could have gotten access to all the classified and top secret documents.

The more Trump and his attorneys open their mouths, the deeper hole they dig.
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Re: FBI is raiding Mar-a-Lago

#114 Post by silverscreenselect » Fri Sep 02, 2022 9:51 am

The judge released a detailed inventory of what was seized in the raid, and, as usual, every time Trump's attorneys insist on making more information public, the worse it gets for them. The inventory reveals that classified documents were mixed in boxes with various personal items and hundreds of photographs and other government documents. The photos did not have classified markings but they were clearly labeled as belonging to the Federal government. Under federal law, those documents belong to the National Archives and are not Donald Trump's personal souvenirs.

What concerned me was that there were dozens of empty folders that had a classified banner outside. This cover page is not classified itself (thus the evidence photo showing the folders did not violate any laws), but it warns people what's inside so that unauthorized people don't accidentally access the information. The question becomes what happened to the documents that were originally in the folders. Were they other places in the office? Were they returned earlier? Did they somehow disappear from Mar-a-Lago? Hopefully, we'll get some explanation about that.

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/02/politics ... index.html
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Re: FBI is raiding Mar-a-Lago

#115 Post by jarnon » Fri Sep 02, 2022 10:58 am

I’d like to know the details too, but there are certainly enough classified documents that were removed from Mar-a-Lago to fill all the folders.

I’m surprised that Trump owns over thirty books!

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Re: FBI is raiding Mar-a-Lago

#116 Post by Bob Juch » Fri Sep 02, 2022 3:46 pm

jarnon wrote:
Fri Sep 02, 2022 10:58 am
I’d like to know the details too, but there are certainly enough classified documents that were removed from Mar-a-Lago to fill all the folders.

I’m surprised that Trump owns over thirty books!
That doesn't mean he read them.
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Re: FBI is raiding Mar-a-Lago

#117 Post by jarnon » Mon Sep 05, 2022 2:10 pm

And here is Judge Cannon's order to appoint a special master:

https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/ ... 3640_2.pdf

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Re: FBI is raiding Mar-a-Lago

#118 Post by Bob Juch » Thu Sep 15, 2022 9:06 pm

Judge Aileen M. Cannon declined to lift any part of an order she issued last week that barred the department from using the documents, including about 100 marked classified, in its investigation until the arbiter, known as a special master, had completed a review.

In her 10-page decision, Judge Cannon appointed a special master suggested by the Trump legal team and agreed upon by the government: Raymond J. Dearie, a semiretired judge from the Federal District Court for the Eastern District of New York.
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