9th vs. 10th Amendment

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kroxquo
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9th vs. 10th Amendment

#1 Post by kroxquo » Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:49 am

I am thinking that those who are opposed to Roe being overturned are framing the question entirely wrong. The question of whether access to abortion is a fundamental right can be debated, but it is part of a larger question - Is the ability to address one's own medical questions a fundamental right? Which leads to a a broader question - Is privacy a fundamental right? Which leads me to the debate between the 9th and 10th Amendments.

The 10th Amendment states in full, "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." Setting aside the moral issue of abortion, this is what advocates of overturning Roe will point to, and on its surface it does seem that that would indicate that something like abortion is in the sole domain of the states. However, since we cannot pick and choose which parts of the Constitution to follow, we must also consider the 9th Amendment which states in full, "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." The word privacy does not appear anywhere in the Constitution, so we need to ask whether privacy is one of unenumerated fundamental rights that the 9th is talking about. If we look elsewhere at the 3rd and 4th Amendments, it is strongly implied that the people have the right to privacy in their own homes. This can then be extended to include privacy of all kinds including medical decisions. Under that condition, the Supreme Court does have the authority to exclude states' power to infringe upon that right, just as they have the authority to exclude a state's law if it infringes on a person's right to free speech.

So the way I see it is this. IF you accept that privacy is a fundamental right, and IF you accept a personal medical decision is part of that right to privacy, and IF you accept that the government - federal, state, or otherwise - does not have the authority to infringe that right, THEN you need to accept that Roe was a valid interpretation of the Constitution and should not have been overturned.

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Re: 9th vs. 10th Amendment

#2 Post by triviawayne » Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:55 am

If the organs from your dead body can not be harvested to save the lives of other people without consent, then the right to an abortion must also be legal because there is no sane, rational argument that can be made for a corpse to have more rights than a living person.

End of story.

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Re: 9th vs. 10th Amendment

#3 Post by jarnon » Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:56 am

This article describes the history of the right to informed consent, which gives patients the authority to make their own medical decisions:

A Modern History of Informed Consent and the Role of Key Information

It cites some early 20th century legal cases, and quotes one of them, Pratt v Davis:
under a free government at least, the citizen's first and greatest right, which underlies all others—the fight to the inviolability of his person, in other words, his right to himself is the subject of universal acquiescence
(In the style of the day, the free citizen is referred to as "he," even though the patient in this case is a woman.)

So for over 60 years before Roe v Wade, the right to control over one's own body has been recognized as a fundamental right, or even the first and greatest right. Roe v Wade balanced that right against the states' right to protect potential life.
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Re: 9th vs. 10th Amendment

#4 Post by BackInTex » Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:36 am

But your right to control over your own body does not extend to harming those sharing your body.

Can conjoined twins unilaterally make medical decisions that may impact their sibling?
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Re: 9th vs. 10th Amendment

#5 Post by silverscreenselect » Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:30 am

BackInTex wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:36 am
But your right to control over your own body does not extend to harming those sharing your body.
Except for the small detail that a fetus is not a person.
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Re: 9th vs. 10th Amendment

#6 Post by Beebs52 » Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:01 am

Of course, that's according to you.
Even some sciencey sorts might differ. These are excerpts from NIH site, EMBO (European Molecular Biology Org.)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... evelopment.



"Some grant that the embryo is a human organism, but deny that this means it is a being deserving of full moral respect. They claim that in order to have dignity and a right to life, a human being must have additional characteristics such as self-awareness. Often this view is expressed along the following lines: “[w]hile human embryos are human organisms, they are not persons, and it is persons who deserve full moral respect, not necessarily human organisms”.

...
We believe that this view, which relegates some living human beings to the status of ‘non-persons', is profoundly mistaken. It is clear that one need not be actually or immediately conscious, reasoning, deliberating or making choices, in order to be a human being who deserves full moral respect, for plainly people who are asleep or in reversible comas deserve such respect]
...

Embryos are whole human beings, at the early stage of their maturation. The term 'embryo', similar to the terms 'infant' and 'adolescent', refers to a determinate and enduring organism at a particular stage of development."
Well, then

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Re: 9th vs. 10th Amendment

#7 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:12 am

The existence of an embryo, in the vast majority of cases, is a result of a conscious decision made between two fully functioning, self-aware human beings.


I'm just stating an irrefutable fact that has become unspeakable in our present culture and not even considered in any argument I have heard on this bored, and very rarely in the public domain in which this issue is being argued.
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Re: 9th vs. 10th Amendment

#8 Post by BackInTex » Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:16 am

silverscreenselect wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 10:30 am
BackInTex wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:36 am
But your right to control over your own body does not extend to harming those sharing your body.
Except for the small detail that a fetus is not a person.
Really? How do you bring someone up on homicide charges if there is no death of a person? Most, if not all, states have laws providing for homicide charges when causing the death of an unborn person. Unintentionally of course as the intentional killing is what the Democrats seem to value as the most basic right.
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Re: 9th vs. 10th Amendment

#9 Post by silverscreenselect » Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:46 am

flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:12 am
The existence of an embryo, in the vast majority of cases, is a result of a conscious decision made between two fully functioning, self-aware human beings.
If a woman chose to be pregnant, she wouldn't be aborting the fetus.
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Re: 9th vs. 10th Amendment

#10 Post by triviawayne » Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:21 pm

BackInTex wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:36 am
But your right to control over your own body does not extend to harming those sharing your body.

Can conjoined twins unilaterally make medical decisions that may impact their sibling?
Yes, one can petition to separate

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Re: 9th vs. 10th Amendment

#11 Post by Bob78164 » Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:22 pm

Beebs52 wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:01 am
Of course, that's according to you.
Even some sciencey sorts might differ. These are excerpts from NIH site, EMBO (European Molecular Biology Org.)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... evelopment.



"Some grant that the embryo is a human organism, but deny that this means it is a being deserving of full moral respect. They claim that in order to have dignity and a right to life, a human being must have additional characteristics such as self-awareness. Often this view is expressed along the following lines: “[w]hile human embryos are human organisms, they are not persons, and it is persons who deserve full moral respect, not necessarily human organisms”.

...
We believe that this view, which relegates some living human beings to the status of ‘non-persons', is profoundly mistaken. It is clear that one need not be actually or immediately conscious, reasoning, deliberating or making choices, in order to be a human being who deserves full moral respect, for plainly people who are asleep or in reversible comas deserve such respect]
...

Embryos are whole human beings, at the early stage of their maturation. The term 'embryo', similar to the terms 'infant' and 'adolescent', refers to a determinate and enduring organism at a particular stage of development."
Except that in the present context, this isn't a "sciency" question. It's a question about the meaning of the Constitution. Using the methodology of the Court's Republican caucus, you will not find a single law from the Eighteenth or Nineteenth Centuries granting fetuses any legal rights prior to their birth. --Bob
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Re: 9th vs. 10th Amendment

#12 Post by Beebs52 » Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:58 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:22 pm
Beebs52 wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:01 am
Of course, that's according to you.
Even some sciencey sorts might differ. These are excerpts from NIH site, EMBO (European Molecular Biology Org.)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... evelopment.



"Some grant that the embryo is a human organism, but deny that this means it is a being deserving of full moral respect. They claim that in order to have dignity and a right to life, a human being must have additional characteristics such as self-awareness. Often this view is expressed along the following lines: “[w]hile human embryos are human organisms, they are not persons, and it is persons who deserve full moral respect, not necessarily human organisms”.

...
We believe that this view, which relegates some living human beings to the status of ‘non-persons', is profoundly mistaken. It is clear that one need not be actually or immediately conscious, reasoning, deliberating or making choices, in order to be a human being who deserves full moral respect, for plainly people who are asleep or in reversible comas deserve such respect]
...

Embryos are whole human beings, at the early stage of their maturation. The term 'embryo', similar to the terms 'infant' and 'adolescent', refers to a determinate and enduring organism at a particular stage of development."
Except that in the present context, this isn't a "sciency" question. It's a question about the meaning of the Constitution. Using the methodology of the Court's Republican caucus, you will not find a single law from the Eighteenth or Nineteenth Centuries granting fetuses any legal rights prior to their birth. --Bob
The point was if they're persons.
Well, then

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Re: 9th vs. 10th Amendment

#13 Post by BackInTex » Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:54 pm

triviawayne wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:21 pm
BackInTex wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:36 am
But your right to control over your own body does not extend to harming those sharing your body.

Can conjoined twins unilaterally make medical decisions that may impact their sibling?
Yes, one can petition to separate
They may be able to petition but if it meant the certain death of the other then I doubt it would be granted.

As with Abby and Brittany Hensel they share the circulatory system. So if one wanted to say, transition and take male hormones, she wouldn’t be able to without affecting the other. So no, not their body, their (sole) choice.
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Re: 9th vs. 10th Amendment

#14 Post by Ritterskoop » Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:57 pm

I love the 9th vs 10th conversation, always have. It shows a willingness to talk, and to leave things open-ended. or so I thought ...

I love that we are now all thinking about and talking about rights, which we don't actually have that many of. They must be granted to us by each other, meaning if you have a right to clean water, then someone must clean that water. It doesn't just occur (anymore). The same with other rights - if Person A has a right to vote, it is because Person B volunteered at the precinct to make it happen. We grant rights to each other; they are not innate (as I understand them, which could be wrong).

Given that foundation, in case it makes a difference, here is my question:

Did this court on one day say that the states can't handle laws about personal decision (concealed carry), and need to be told what to do, but then a day or two later say that the states CAN handle laws about personal decisions (abortion now, but Thomas said several other items are coming)?

I truly get it if they are saying we are throwing out all of the rights we're used to, and starting over, but the gun ruling doesn't seem to fit with that framework.
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Re: 9th vs. 10th Amendment

#15 Post by triviawayne » Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:58 pm

BackInTex wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:54 pm
triviawayne wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:21 pm
BackInTex wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:36 am
But your right to control over your own body does not extend to harming those sharing your body.

Can conjoined twins unilaterally make medical decisions that may impact their sibling?
Yes, one can petition to separate
They may be able to petition but if it meant the certain death of the other then I doubt it would be granted.

Yet allowances for abortion are not granted when it means certain death for the mother.

Judges are stupid that way…which is why this thread exists

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Re: 9th vs. 10th Amendment

#16 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:22 pm

triviawayne wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:58 pm
BackInTex wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:54 pm
triviawayne wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:21 pm


Yes, one can petition to separate
They may be able to petition but if it meant the certain death of the other then I doubt it would be granted.

Yet allowances for abortion are not granted when it means certain death for the mother.

Judges are stupid that way…which is why this thread exists
Any instance where an abortion of the unborn baby is required to save the life of the mother must be allowed, as long as every effort to spare the baby, as well, is taken.

In the words of Joe Biden, not long ago, abortions must be rare and safe.
In March 2006, Biden gave an interview to Texas Monthly – where he said abortion is "always a tragedy" and is not a right.

"I do not view abortion as a choice or a right," Biden said. "I think it's always a tragedy, and I think that it should be rare and safe."

"And I think we should be focusing on how to limit the number of abortions. And there ought to be able to have a common ground and consensus as to do that," said Biden – who was a Democratic senator for Delaware at the time of his comments.
I must agree with these words from Joe Biden, 2006 version, where he still had most of the marbles he started with, even though they never were a full and complete set.
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Re: 9th vs. 10th Amendment

#17 Post by BackInTex » Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:50 pm

triviawayne wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:58 pm
BackInTex wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:54 pm
triviawayne wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 12:21 pm


Yes, one can petition to separate
They may be able to petition but if it meant the certain death of the other then I doubt it would be granted.

Yet allowances for abortion are not granted when it means certain death for the mother.

Judges are stupid that way…which is why this thread exists
True. If the intent was down to this situation only it would be a different game. But PP hasn’t made hundreds of millions of dollars saving womens’ lives. Just ending innocent lives who posed no threat at all (other then loss of a convenience) to the mothers.
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Re: 9th vs. 10th Amendment

#18 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:20 pm

One of the reasons I continue to post here is that it allows me to think about these issues and express MY opinions on them. I know there are not many people here, and I think most of you don't care what I think. And some of you will vehemently oppose, mock and critique it automatically.

Here is what I think about the abortion issue.

In my view, any designation that this 'mass of cells' becomes a baby at this point or at that point is only an arbitrary point made specifically for purposes of a political or moral argument being supported or opposed. Counter arguments for any 'designated point' can and will be made. For me, once an egg is fertilized, it becomes a human life. Because, in the absence of anything to stop it, it will be born into this world as a human being.

Because it is a human being, for me, it (he or she) has rights. He or she, at this point, cannot make decisions for his or herself and is totally and completely dependent on his or her mother. Any other human being who is totally dependent upon another human being has rights. For instance, a child that has already been born cannot be killed because of the interests and desires of that child's parents. Those parents would be rightfully charged with murder. The same is true for a severely handicapped human being that is completely dependent on someone else.

Again, it all comes down to the decision made by a fully sentient and post-pubescent woman and a fully sentient and post-pubescent man. If they make the conscious decision to engage in sex, they take the chance that they could produce a baby for which they will be responsible. And in my view, they should be responsible, in making that decision, for any human life they produce, whether it was intended or not. There are many ways in which to reduce the likelihood that that will happen, but however low that likelihood is, they need to be mindful that there is a chance it will happen. But you may say, if a baby is born to people who did not intend to produce a baby, that baby will not be 'wanted' and lack the love and support it needs and deserves. The fact is, and it's irrefutable. If you make the decision to have sex, a human life, for which you will be held responsible, may well be the result. And you cannot pass that responsibility on to anyone else, or any other entity. IMO, If you are going to do sex education in public schools, instead of teaching gender fluidity and all this other stuff to prepubescent children in schools, this is the major topic that should be taught above all that other stuff. Responsible parents should, of course, teach their children this.

That being said, there are occasions where a human life is produced where it was not the result of a conscious choice by two people, a man and a woman. Those must be dealt with separately, and I don't know what the best way to handle those situations is. Should the mother be forced to carry a baby for 9 months which was forced upon her either by rape or incest, being constantly reminded of the ugly, evil act that was committed against her? No, aboslutely not. But the human that was conceived by this evil act: Is he or she condemned to death because of a crime he or she had nothing to do with? I have trouble with this as well.

So what it comes down to, IMO, is that in some states it may be the case where people will be held responsible for their decisions, and the easy remedy, to do away with an unborn child, will be made more difficult and more expensive. Like all other aspects of our lives, there will undoubtedly be underground and black-market alternatives that spring up, and these will not be regulated, of course, and will not be safe. If the truth be told, I would say that these options existed before Roe v Wade, and they existed during Roe v Wade and will continue to exist. I have no way of knowing, but human nature makes it likely that it is true.

In other states, the decision to have sex without being ultimately responsible for an 'unintended' outcome will be supported by a relatively easy and inexpensive solution, without regard for the human life which will be regarded as the 'unintended' outcome. The presumed black-market sources for abortions will also continue to exist there, as well.

I know I will be picked to pieces on some of these points, or all of them. I also know some of you will personally insult me because that is what you do. But this is MY view on this issue, and obviously, I don't have a definitive answer. If I did, I wouldn't just be posting it on the WWTBAM bored.
Last edited by flockofseagulls104 on Sun Jun 26, 2022 5:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 9th vs. 10th Amendment

#19 Post by Appa23 » Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:35 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:46 am
flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:12 am
The existence of an embryo, in the vast majority of cases, is a result of a conscious decision made between two fully functioning, self-aware human beings.
If a woman chose to be pregnant, she wouldn't be aborting the fetus.
So, who wants to have The Talk with SSS and explain where babies come from?

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Re: 9th vs. 10th Amendment

#20 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:40 pm

Appa23 wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 4:35 pm
silverscreenselect wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:46 am
flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:12 am
The existence of an embryo, in the vast majority of cases, is a result of a conscious decision made between two fully functioning, self-aware human beings.
If a woman chose to be pregnant, she wouldn't be aborting the fetus.
So, who wants to have The Talk with SSS and explain where babies come from?
Not me. I think he believes that males can be birthing persons.
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Re: 9th vs. 10th Amendment

#21 Post by triviawayne » Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:29 pm

BackInTex wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:50 pm
triviawayne wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:58 pm
BackInTex wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:54 pm


They may be able to petition but if it meant the certain death of the other then I doubt it would be granted.

Yet allowances for abortion are not granted when it means certain death for the mother.

Judges are stupid that way…which is why this thread exists
True. If the intent was down to this situation only it would be a different game. But PP hasn’t made hundreds of millions of dollars saving womens’ lives. Just ending innocent lives who posed no threat at all (other then loss of a convenience) to the mothers.
and your source of this is...

never mind, you don't have one backed up with facts.

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Re: 9th vs. 10th Amendment

#22 Post by Bob78164 » Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:51 pm

triviawayne wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:29 pm
BackInTex wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:50 pm
triviawayne wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:58 pm
Yet allowances for abortion are not granted when it means certain death for the mother.

Judges are stupid that way…which is why this thread exists
True. If the intent was down to this situation only it would be a different game. But PP hasn’t made hundreds of millions of dollars saving womens’ lives. Just ending innocent lives who posed no threat at all (other then loss of a convenience) to the mothers.
and your source of this is...

never mind, you don't have one backed up with facts.
His fundamental point is that most abortions are not necessary to save the life and health of the mother. He trivializes the real consequences of this life-altering experience by calling it "convenience" but the fundamental point is correct.

His statement that Planned Parenthood, a not-for-profit, makes hundreds of millions of dollars -- well, I'll be fascinated to see if he can support that claim with evidence. --Bob
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Re: 9th vs. 10th Amendment

#23 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:01 pm

triviawayne wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:29 pm
BackInTex wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:50 pm
triviawayne wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 2:58 pm


Yet allowances for abortion are not granted when it means certain death for the mother.

Judges are stupid that way…which is why this thread exists
True. If the intent was down to this situation only it would be a different game. But PP hasn’t made hundreds of millions of dollars saving womens’ lives. Just ending innocent lives who posed no threat at all (other then loss of a convenience) to the mothers.
and your source of this is...

never mind, you don't have one backed up with facts.
https://www.lifenews.com/2021/02/26/pla ... abortions/

OK, get your google going. Find the hundreds of responses saying this is wrong, made up, out of context or just to be ignored because it's from a pro-life source. Can't trust anything unless it's from an approved, bonafide leftist source. We all know that. The canned responses are out there, I'm sure. If you have any trouble, ask my stalker. He'll know how to find them. The left never lets anything go unanswered, and they will make sure it comes to the top of any internet search.

Oh, don't worry now. bob is on the job. They will set us all straight, since they know everything about it, whatever it is.
Your friendly neighborhood racist. On the waiting list to be a nazi. Designated an honorary 'snowflake'. Trolled by the very best, as well as by BJ. Always typical, unlike others.., Fulminator, Hopelessly in the tank for trump... inappropriate... Flocking himself... Probably a tucking sexist, too... All thought comes from the right wing noise machine(TM)... A clear and present threat to The Future Of Our Democracy.. Doesn't understand anything... Made the trump apologist and enabler playoffs... Heathen bastard... Knows nothing about history... Liar.... don't know much about statistics and polling... Nothing at all about biology... Ignorant Bigot... Potential Future Pariah... Big Nerd... Spiraling, Anti-Trans Bigot.. A Lunatic AND a Bigot.. Very Ignorant of the World in General... Sounds deranged... Fake Christian... Weird... has the mind of a child... has paranoid delusions... Simpleton

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kroxquo
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Re: 9th vs. 10th Amendment

#24 Post by kroxquo » Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:22 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:01 pm
triviawayne wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:29 pm
BackInTex wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:50 pm


True. If the intent was down to this situation only it would be a different game. But PP hasn’t made hundreds of millions of dollars saving womens’ lives. Just ending innocent lives who posed no threat at all (other then loss of a convenience) to the mothers.
and your source of this is...

never mind, you don't have one backed up with facts.
https://www.lifenews.com/2021/02/26/pla ... abortions/

OK, get your google going. Find the hundreds of responses saying this is wrong, made up, out of context or just to be ignored because it's from a pro-life source. Can't trust anything unless it's from an approved, bonafide leftist source. We all know that. The canned responses are out there, I'm sure. If you have any trouble, ask my stalker. He'll know how to find them. The left never lets anything go unanswered, and they will make sure it comes to the top of any internet search.

Oh, don't worry now. bob is on the job. They will set us all straight, since they know everything about it, whatever it is.
I'd like to ask you a question and I promise I'm not looking to pick a fight - just asking for information's sake. You have accused me and others of parroting what you call liberal/left-wing talking points and disparage sources that I and others cite when we attempt to explain our positions and/or refute yours. And yet, you seem to do the same thing from the other side - echoing the standard conservative talking points and using questionable source material to explain and/or refute. So my question is - how and why are your methods different than mine?
You live and learn. Or at least you live. - Douglas Adams

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BackInTex
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Re: 9th vs. 10th Amendment

#25 Post by BackInTex » Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:49 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:51 pm
His statement that Planned Parenthood, a not-for-profit, makes hundreds of millions of dollars -- well, I'll be fascinated to see if he can support that claim with evidence. --Bob
I didn't say net income or earned, but said "makes', which can (and was) used to reference revenue. $1.64 billion in 2019-2020 fiscal year (though not all abortion related revenue).

Even so, as a non-profit, that year revenued exceeded expenses by $70 million.

BTW, non-profict is a legal and tax designation, generally meaning there is no distribution of profits to owners, just reinvestment or distribution to mission purposes. Most successful non-profits grow in net worth as I'm sure PP has. PP's June 2020 net balance sheet was $2.3 billion. Unless Marget Sanger invested more than $2.3 billion when she founded PP, then they've made money (net profit).

I'll stand by my comment that PP has made hundreds of millions of dollars, 23 of them as net profit.
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
~~ Thomas Jefferson

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