Juneteenth

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flockofseagulls104
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Juneteenth

#1 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:27 am

I am glad to celebrate our newest national holiday - Juneteenth.

It is a day for celebration for all Americans. It is a commemoration of the day when our country got rid of the evil institution of slavery.

Thousands of Americans of all races sacrificed their lives in this effort. In the aftermath of the Civil War, we became one nation.
As Ken Burns put it. Before the Civil War, it was 'The United States Are,,," after the Civil War it is "The United States Is..."

Black Americans can and will celebrate this day as a commemoration of the day when the slaves were freed.

All Americans can and should celebrate this day as the day we righted the wrong of slavery in this country.

I do not identify myself as a descendant of people that owned slaves. I identify myself as a descendant of people who freed slaves.

We should all celebrate this day and be thankful and grateful.
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Re: Juneteenth

#2 Post by Bob Juch » Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:13 pm

I don't intend to dampen your enthusiasm, but slavery was still practiced in Delaware and Kentucky until the 13th Amendment was ratified on December 6, 1865.
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Re: Juneteenth

#3 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:13 pm

Bob Juch wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:13 pm
I don't intend to dampen your enthusiasm, but slavery was still practiced in Delaware and Kentucky until the 13th Amendment was ratified on December 6, 1865.
Just what is it that you intended to do?
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Re: Juneteenth

#4 Post by Bob Juch » Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:18 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:13 pm
Bob Juch wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:13 pm
I don't intend to dampen your enthusiasm, but slavery was still practiced in Delaware and Kentucky until the 13th Amendment was ratified on December 6, 1865.
Just what is it that you intended to do?
Be accurate.
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Re: Juneteenth

#5 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:59 pm

Bob Juch wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:18 pm
flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:13 pm
Bob Juch wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:13 pm
I don't intend to dampen your enthusiasm, but slavery was still practiced in Delaware and Kentucky until the 13th Amendment was ratified on December 6, 1865.
Just what is it that you intended to do?
Be accurate.
So, you want them to take back the dang holiday because you pointed out the inaccuracy?
Or did you just want to point out how much smarter you think you are than anyone else? And what the hell does that have to do with the point of the thread?
Why do you think it was important to weigh in with that?
Just wondering. Research on how minds like yours allegedly work.
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Re: Juneteenth

#6 Post by kroxquo » Thu Jun 16, 2022 5:01 am

flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:59 pm
Bob Juch wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:18 pm
flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:13 pm

Just what is it that you intended to do?
Be accurate.
So, you want them to take back the dang holiday because you pointed out the inaccuracy?
Or did you just want to point out how much smarter you think you are than anyone else? And what the hell does that have to do with the point of the thread?
Why do you think it was important to weigh in with that?
Just wondering. Research on how minds like yours allegedly work.
I am a pedant of the highest degree, but I'm going to (gasp) go along with Flock on this one. The intention of the thread as I see it was to offer a hand and to celebrate that a terrible wrong was corrected and that the specific date has been celebrated since 1866. Yes you are correct in pointing out that slavery still existed, but I think you miss the conciliatory (and frankly unexpected) spirit of the post.
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Re: Juneteenth

#7 Post by ne1410s » Thu Jun 16, 2022 7:11 am

flock's sniveling disdain for reparations is noted.
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Re: Juneteenth

#8 Post by franktangredi » Thu Jun 16, 2022 7:30 am

Jesus, people, can't we take even this small opportunity to all be on the same page and not snipe at one another? FOR ONE F**KING DAY!

I appreciate the original post.

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Re: Juneteenth

#9 Post by Bob Juch » Thu Jun 16, 2022 7:48 am

Sorry, but since it was declared a federal holiday, I've had a problem with Juneteenth as it's the wrong date for the abolition of slavery.

It's akin to celebrating on May 5th instead of September 16th, which is Mexico's Independence Day.

Yes, I'm pedantic when it comes to history.
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Re: Juneteenth

#10 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Thu Jun 16, 2022 7:53 am

Most people, IMO, see Juneteeth as another way to divide us. I, personally, see it as a way to unite us. But it will be a long uphill climb. My perspective is apparently not shared too widely.
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Re: Juneteenth

#11 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Thu Jun 16, 2022 7:55 am

Bob Juch wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 7:48 am
Sorry, but since it was declared a federal holiday, I've had a problem with Juneteenth as it's the wrong date for the abolition of slavery.

It's akin to celebrating on May 5th instead of September 16th, which is Mexico's Independence Day.

Yes, I'm pedantic when it comes to history.
Yes, BJ. We all know that July 4th is not the correct historical day independence was declared. But so the &$^# what?
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Re: Juneteenth

#12 Post by tlynn78 » Thu Jun 16, 2022 9:22 am

ne1410s wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 7:11 am
flock's sniveling disdain for reparations is noted.
:roll:
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Re: Juneteenth

#13 Post by silverscreenselect » Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:27 am

flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Thu Jun 16, 2022 7:53 am
But it will be a long uphill climb.
Well, I agree with you on this sentence.
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Re: Juneteenth

#14 Post by jarnon » Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:37 am

Another shocking historical fact: Jesus wasn't actually born on December 25.

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Re: Juneteenth

#15 Post by Bob Juch » Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:32 am

jarnon wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:37 am
Another shocking historical fact: Jesus wasn't actually born on December 25.
That's why I don't celebrate Christmas.
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Re: Juneteenth

#16 Post by silverscreenselect » Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:52 am

Bob Juch wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 7:32 am
jarnon wrote:
Fri Jun 17, 2022 1:37 am
Another shocking historical fact: Jesus wasn't actually born on December 25.
That's why I don't celebrate Christmas.
Any time people give me presents is a time for celebration.
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Re: Juneteenth

#17 Post by SportsFan68 » Sat Jun 18, 2022 11:49 am

Any time people give me presents is a time for celebration.
I'll second that. :D
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Re: Juneteenth

#18 Post by Bob Juch » Sun Jun 19, 2022 12:22 pm

After Juneteenth, many Black people in Texas remained enslaved

https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/ ... -enslaved/

Quoted in full due to the WP paywall.

By DeNeen L. Brown
June 19, 2022 at 6:00 a.m. EDT

In 1903, a Black man walked into an office in a small town in Texas, seeking any news about whether slavery had ended.

The earnest inquiry from the man, who had been forced to labor without pay, came more than 38 years after Major Gen. Gordon Granger landed on Galveston Island, Texas, with more than 2,000 federal soldiers to deliver the belated news of freedom to enslaved Black people in Texas. Word of the end of bondage for the more than 250,000 enslaved Black people in the state arrived on June 19, 1865 — two years after President Abraham Lincoln’s Emancipation Proclamation.

Despite the clear instructions in General Order No. 3 and the announcement that day by Granger’s men that “the people of Texas are informed that, in accordance with a proclamation from the Executive of the United States, all slaves are free,” not every enslaved Black person in Texas was freed with that proclamation.

Enslavers across the state resisted the general’s order, hiding the news from enslaved Black people. Many Black people were forced to continue to labor under the oppression of ruthless enslavers and unscrupulous plantation owners.

Last year, President Biden signed a bill to recognize Juneteenth as a federal holiday. On Thursday, in advance of the holiday, human rights activists installed a 150-foot Pan-African flag garden on the Ellipse, south of the White House, demanding that Biden establish a commission to study reparations. “Making Juneteenth a holiday is not enough,” one banner said.

The announcement on June 19, 1865, did not end slavery in Texas. The barbaric institution continued in other forms and by other names, according to historians.

“There was almost universal agreement from statements of enslaved people that many Texas slaveowners held off making the announcement,” said historian C.R. Gibbs. “They wanted another crop.”

Many Black Texans didn’t receive the news until 1866. “Slaveowners resorted to tricks. They delayed. They postponed. This was money,” said Gibbs, author of “Black, Copper & Bright: The District of Columbia’s Black Civil War Regiment.” “They wanted to continue to get every last drop of sweat from slavery.”

Even after Granger’s order, Black people remained in “such a delicate situation in Texas,” Gibbs said. “You have the collapse of the Confederate government. And roving bands of men who wanted to turn the clock back. A Union officer once said, ‘Given a choice between hell and Texas, I would live in hell and rent out Texas.’ It was just that bad in Texas.”

During the Civil War, Texas was a refuge for enslavers evading emancipation. “Slaveowners in Arkansas, Tennessee and Louisiana ran their ‘Negroes’ from Arkansas, Louisiana and other parts of the states into Texas because the U.S. Army had not reached Texas,” said W. Marvin Dulaney, a retired University of Texas-Arlington historian and president of the Association for the Study of African American Life and History.

After Granger’s order, the Union Army literally had to march across Texas to enforce the order and free enslaved Black people. In some cases, enslavers killed enslaved Black people rather than allow them their freedom.

“Texans were so resentful that African Americans would become free, they literally carried out a pogrom,” Dulaney said, citing a speech by Barry A. Crouch, a professor of history at Gallaudet University. “They killed as many as 2,500. They were just murdered outright across the state.”

Violence increased against African Americans between 1865 and 1868, Dulaney said. In some cases, enslaved Black people in Texas were run down by bloodhounds or shot rather than be released from bondage. “It takes almost over a year for the Union Army to literally go across the state and free African Americans from slavery,” Dulaney said.

Slavery formally ended in the United States on Dec. 6, 1865, with the ratification of the 13th Amendment, which stated, “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States.”

That “exception clause” created a loophole, permitting slavery to continue in another form and allowing officials in the South to perpetuate slavery conditions, including forced prison labor and convict leasing.

Granger’s Juneteenth order contained a similar caveat. It declared that “all slaves are free” but that the relationship between “former masters and slaves” should become “that between employer and hired labor.” It continued, “The freedmen are advised to remain at their present homes and work for wages. They are informed that they will not be allowed to collect at military posts; and that they will not be supported in idleness either there or elsewhere.”

That last line, historians say, set the stage for the continuation of slavery through convict leasing and “Black code” laws that would restrict the freedom of Black people.

“Granger was warning them against idleness,” Dulaney said. “That order would lead to creation of vagrancy laws and Black codes that would be wielded against Black people, forcing many into forced labor without pay.”

The sharecropping system and laws prohibiting Black people from hunting and fishing also prevented Black people from feeding themselves and required them to work for White people.

“You had to sign a work contract at the beginning of each year or you could be rented out to a plantation,” Dulaney said. “In many cases, it was like being sold. The owners would have control over you. It was like being a slave.”

Some enslavers resisted the emancipation order by fleeing — taking their enslaved workers south into Cuba and Brazil, where slavery had not been outlawed. The kidnapping of Black people out of the country struck fear in those who were still in precarious situations in the control of their former enslavers — without protection from Union troops.

Frederick Douglass’s brother Perry Downs, who was enslaved in Texas, recounted hearing his enslaver say that he would run his “property” out of Texas.

No one knows how many enslaved Black people were driven farther south by enslavers to avoid freeing them. “There were unnamed numbers of Black people taken out of the United States to places where there was still slavery,” Gibbs said.

Slavery was not abolished in Cuba until 1886. Brazil became the last country in the Americas to abolish slavery in 1888.

To this day, descendants of Confederates who drove enslaved Black people into Brazil celebrate with festivals in the cities of Americana and Santa Bárbara d’Oeste, celebrating “the Confederate States of America” with Confederate flag displays and dances.

In the United States, as communities prepare for Juneteenth celebrations, historians say, revelers should also pause in somber acknowledgment that the hardship of involuntary labor and racial terror against Black people continued long after Granger stood on the courthouse steps in Galveston reading the famous order for long-awaited freedom.

“Juneteenth should be celebrated to recognize the symbolic emancipation of African Americans from slavery” in Texas, Dulaney said. “Let’s celebrate it. But also realize it took much longer and much more than an order from a Union army general to end slavery in this country.”
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Re: Juneteenth

#19 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Sun Jun 19, 2022 12:26 pm

What the hell is the matter with you, BJ?

You and people like you exist only to create and perpetuate divisions between people in this country. Why you think that is in any way a good thing is way beyond me.

I, and 99.9% of the people in this country KNOW that slavery is a bad thing. And we also know it used to, a long time before any of us were even thought of, be practiced here in this country.
But we stopped that because we knew it was evil. And TODAY, in 2022, we don't have slaves in this country, and we never will as long as this country exists. Why do people like you keep slandering the people of today for what people in the past may or may not have done? Slavery goes back way beyond the US, BJ. For all I know I am descended from Roman slaves. Should we find some way to punish Italy for their past sins?

You and people like you need to stop and think. And maybe actually emulate the ideals you loudly profess and try and find things to do that will bring us together instead of constantly dividing us.
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Re: Juneteenth

#20 Post by Bob Juch » Sun Jun 19, 2022 12:45 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 12:26 pm
What the hell is the matter with you, BJ?

You and people like you exist only to create and perpetuate divisions between people in this country. Why you think that is in any way a good thing is way beyond me.
You and people like you want to ignore the divisions between people in this country. You want to celebrate Juneteenth without addressing the problems we have today. You support politicians who believe in White Replacement Theory. You want to ban teaching our children anything about race relations that disturbs them.

Pointing that out is a good thing.
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Re: Juneteenth

#21 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Sun Jun 19, 2022 12:47 pm

Bob Juch wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 12:45 pm
flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Sun Jun 19, 2022 12:26 pm
What the hell is the matter with you, BJ?

You and people like you exist only to create and perpetuate divisions between people in this country. Why you think that is in any way a good thing is way beyond me.
You and people like you want to ignore the divisions between people in this country. You want to celebrate Juneteenth without addressing the problems we have today. You support politicians who believe in White Replacement Theory. You want to ban teaching our children anything about race relations that disturbs them.

Pointing that out is a good thing.
No, BJ, I don't do anything like that. It is all in your warped, indoctrinated mind. And that is your major problem.
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Re: Juneteenth

#22 Post by Beebs52 » Sun Jun 19, 2022 12:52 pm

When they're in total troll mode it's best to ignore.
Well, then

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Re: Juneteenth

#23 Post by themanintheseersuckersuit » Mon Jun 20, 2022 8:18 pm

May 13 would be better. That day in 1862, Robert Smalls the pilot of the steamship Planter and a slave freed himself, his family, some friends, the steamship, and some confederate cannons by slipping by Fort Sumter to freedom.
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The problem, then, is that such calls do not address an opposition audience so much as they signal virtue. They talk past those who need convincing. They ignore actual facts and counterargument. And they are irreparably smug.

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