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From CDC In 2019, 629,898 legal induced abortions were reported to CDC from 49 reporting areas. Among 48 reporting areas with data each year during 2010–2019, in 2019, a total of 625,346 abortions were reported, the abortion rate was 11.4 abortions per 1,000 women aged 15–44 years, and the abortion ratio was 195 abortions per 1,000 live births.

flockofseagulls104 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:01 pm

BJ, I guess it has to be spelled out to people like you. The whole idea is to eliminate abortion AS A FORM OF BIRTH CONTROL. All sane proposals I have seen make exceptions for rape and for the health of the mother. I know it's difficult with a subject like this where you've been brainwashed for half your life, but try very hard to get real.

Then there are many states that have adopted proposals that you believe to be insane, which will take immediate effect if and when the Supreme Court issues its final ruling reversing Roe. Most current proposals DO NOT contain exceptions for rape or incest. --Bob

Bob78164 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:20 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:01 pm

BJ, I guess it has to be spelled out to people like you. The whole idea is to eliminate abortion AS A FORM OF BIRTH CONTROL. All sane proposals I have seen make exceptions for rape and for the health of the mother. I know it's difficult with a subject like this where you've been brainwashed for half your life, but try very hard to get real.

Then there are many states that have adopted proposals that you believe to be insane, which will take immediate effect if and when the Supreme Court issues its final ruling reversing Roe. Most current proposals DO NOT contain exceptions for rape or incest. --Bob

Then move.

flockofseagulls104 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:17 pm

kroxquo wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:09 pm

Beebs52 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 5:55 pm

Yes. It's called fucking birth control which is totally accessible. What is hard about that concept?

Oh, then you agree that we need sex education that informs students in middle school or even earlier about different forms of birth control, how they work, and how to access them; and to make it cheaper and more easily accessible.

Yes, I would agree with the idea that should be taught to appropriate age levels as long as it includes the idea of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and the fact that a living human being is involved, not just a mass of cells.

I went to high school in the 1970's. I was pretty much shocked when I learned that the local high school, when I moved to Oregon, had its own day care center for the students. Is that the norm these days?

Who knows. But at least they didn't kill their babies. So there's that.

Birth control has been around forever. No excuse to not use it, unless you have (insert whatever medical blah). Please. Won't effect the 600,000 elective percentage.

Bob78164 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:20 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:01 pm

BJ, I guess it has to be spelled out to people like you. The whole idea is to eliminate abortion AS A FORM OF BIRTH CONTROL. All sane proposals I have seen make exceptions for rape and for the health of the mother. I know it's difficult with a subject like this where you've been brainwashed for half your life, but try very hard to get real.

Then there are many states that have adopted proposals that you believe to be insane, which will take immediate effect if and when the Supreme Court issues its final ruling reversing Roe. Most current proposals DO NOT contain exceptions for rape or incest. --Bob

SOME apparently currently do not contain exceptions for rape and incest. I see that's true. I think it will be a different landscape if Roe is overturned. Regardless, we are currently a federation, and it will be up to the individual states to determine what restrictions are imposed. I personally believe in exceptions for rape and incest as well as for the health of the mother. But the citizens of that state certainly do have a say in that.
But I'm sure, bob, your state will have no restrictions. I wouldn't be surprised if your state allowed abortions until the child's first birthday.

Have you not been reading the new laws? They have no exception for rape and incest.

Beebs52 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:25 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:17 pm

kroxquo wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:09 pm

Oh, then you agree that we need sex education that informs students in middle school or even earlier about different forms of birth control, how they work, and how to access them; and to make it cheaper and more easily accessible.

Yes, I would agree with the idea that should be taught to appropriate age levels as long as it includes the idea of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and the fact that a living human being is involved, not just a mass of cells.

I went to high school in the 1970's. I was pretty much shocked when I learned that the local high school, when I moved to Oregon, had its own day care center for the students. Is that the norm these days?

Who knows. But at least they didn't kill their babies. So there's that.

This is the fundamental disagreement that I doubt we'll ever be able to bridge. A fetus, particularly a first-trimester fetus, is not a "baby." It's just not, any more than is an unfertilized egg or a sperm cell. It has not yet completed the climb from non-awareness to awareness, and it is wholly dependent on the body of an actual human being. --Bob

Bob78164 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:49 pm

Beebs52 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:25 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:17 pm

Yes, I would agree with the idea that should be taught to appropriate age levels as long as it includes the idea of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and the fact that a living human being is involved, not just a mass of cells.

I went to high school in the 1970's. I was pretty much shocked when I learned that the local high school, when I moved to Oregon, had its own day care center for the students. Is that the norm these days?

Who knows. But at least they didn't kill their babies. So there's that.

This is the fundamental disagreement that I doubt we'll ever be able to bridge. A fetus, particularly a first-trimester fetus, is not a "baby." It's just not, any more than is an unfertilized egg or a sperm cell. It has not yet completed the climb from non-awareness to awareness, and it is wholly dependent on the body of an actual human being. --Bob

You're right. This is the disagreement. Whole key to it all. And, he who prevails wins. He, in the old timey way of use, not binary, cis, bullshit way, of statement. You're an atheist. I am not. Babe is a being. C'est la vie. For real. Deal.

Plus there's that last trimester abortion thing that, oh, Colorado, just voted in. Hmmm

Bob78164 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:49 pm

Beebs52 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:25 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:17 pm

Yes, I would agree with the idea that should be taught to appropriate age levels as long as it includes the idea of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and the fact that a living human being is involved, not just a mass of cells.

I went to high school in the 1970's. I was pretty much shocked when I learned that the local high school, when I moved to Oregon, had its own day care center for the students. Is that the norm these days?

Who knows. But at least they didn't kill their babies. So there's that.

This is the fundamental disagreement that I doubt we'll ever be able to bridge. A fetus, particularly a first-trimester fetus, is not a "baby." It's just not, any more than is an unfertilized egg or a sperm cell. It has not yet completed the climb from non-awareness to awareness, and it is wholly dependent on the body of an actual human being. --Bob

That would be a FEMALE human being, bob. We should go with the science, right?
And by what qualifications do YOU get to determine what a 'baby' is? Many, many people disagree with your pronouncement, bob. Should they get censored for spreading disinformation?
Some people believe it is when a heartbeat starts. Some people base it on when, based on current medical science, a baby is viable outside the womb. And some believe it is when an egg and sperm are fused together.
So I believe that if Roe is overturned, it WILL be a relevant question to state candidates what their position is on this issue, where for many years it hasn't been.

Bob78164 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:49 pm

Beebs52 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:25 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:17 pm

Yes, I would agree with the idea that should be taught to appropriate age levels as long as it includes the idea of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and the fact that a living human being is involved, not just a mass of cells.

I went to high school in the 1970's. I was pretty much shocked when I learned that the local high school, when I moved to Oregon, had its own day care center for the students. Is that the norm these days?

Who knows. But at least they didn't kill their babies. So there's that.

This is the fundamental disagreement that I doubt we'll ever be able to bridge. A fetus, particularly a first-trimester fetus, is not a "baby." It's just not, any more than is an unfertilized egg or a sperm cell. It has not yet completed the climb from non-awareness to awareness, and it is wholly dependent on the body of an actual human being. --Bob

Biggest line of bullshit you've shoveled here, and that's saying something.

Bob78164 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:49 pm

Beebs52 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:25 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:17 pm

Yes, I would agree with the idea that should be taught to appropriate age levels as long as it includes the idea of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and the fact that a living human being is involved, not just a mass of cells.

I went to high school in the 1970's. I was pretty much shocked when I learned that the local high school, when I moved to Oregon, had its own day care center for the students. Is that the norm these days?

Who knows. But at least they didn't kill their babies. So there's that.

This is the fundamental disagreement that I doubt we'll ever be able to bridge. A fetus, particularly a first-trimester fetus, is not a "baby."

Weird, pretty sure I've never attended a fetus shower. Oh, and go fuck yourself. My first trimester miscarriage resulted in the death of my first child. Your opinion could not be less relevant.

It's just not, any more than is an unfertilized egg or a sperm cell.

If you dont comprehend the difference between a sperm cell or unfertilized egg, and a human embryo, well...i guess that wouldnt really surprise me.

It has not yet completed the climb from non-awareness to awareness, and it is wholly dependent on the body of an actual human being. --Bob

So is a newborn wholly dependant, a two week-old, a three month-old; you good to kill those, too?

tlynn78 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 8:02 pm

Bob78164 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:49 pm

Beebs52 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:25 pm

Who knows. But at least they didn't kill their babies. So there's that.

This is the fundamental disagreement that I doubt we'll ever be able to bridge. A fetus, particularly a first-trimester fetus, is not a "baby." It's just not, any more than is an unfertilized egg or a sperm cell. It has not yet completed the climb from non-awareness to awareness, and it is wholly dependent on the body of an actual human being. --Bob

Biggest line of bullshit you've shoveled here, and that's saying something.

Pretty big, but there's others I would vote for....

The thing about bob is that he never says 'This is my opinion' or ' This is what I think'. He makes everything a pronouncement from above. I guess above average lawyers are trained that way.

Bob78164 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:49 pm

Beebs52 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:25 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:17 pm

Yes, I would agree with the idea that should be taught to appropriate age levels as long as it includes the idea of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and the fact that a living human being is involved, not just a mass of cells.

I went to high school in the 1970's. I was pretty much shocked when I learned that the local high school, when I moved to Oregon, had its own day care center for the students. Is that the norm these days?

Who knows. But at least they didn't kill their babies. So there's that.

This is the fundamental disagreement that I doubt we'll ever be able to bridge. A fetus, particularly a first-trimester fetus, is not a "baby." It's just not, any more than is an unfertilized egg or a sperm cell. It has not yet completed the climb from non-awareness to awareness, and it is wholly dependent on the body of an actual human being. --Bob

Hmmm….

Lots of folks during Covid were in hospital on ventilators, unaware and completely dependent on a machine, and humans to run them. Are you saying all that money was wasted. We shouldn’t have attempted to save the non-humans?

Beebs52 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:54 pm

Bob78164 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:49 pm

Beebs52 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:25 pm

Who knows. But at least they didn't kill their babies. So there's that.

This is the fundamental disagreement that I doubt we'll ever be able to bridge. A fetus, particularly a first-trimester fetus, is not a "baby." It's just not, any more than is an unfertilized egg or a sperm cell. It has not yet completed the climb from non-awareness to awareness, and it is wholly dependent on the body of an actual human being. --Bob

You're right. This is the disagreement. Whole key to it all. And, he who prevails wins. He, in the old timey way of use, not binary, cis, bullshit way, of statement. You're an atheist. I am not. Babe is a being. C'est la vie. For real. Deal.

Plus there's that last trimester abortion thing that, oh, Colorado, just voted in. Hmmm

What does your Bible say about that?

BackInTex wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 9:03 pm

Bob78164 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:49 pm

Beebs52 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:25 pm

Who knows. But at least they didn't kill their babies. So there's that.

This is the fundamental disagreement that I doubt we'll ever be able to bridge. A fetus, particularly a first-trimester fetus, is not a "baby." It's just not, any more than is an unfertilized egg or a sperm cell. It has not yet completed the climb from non-awareness to awareness, and it is wholly dependent on the body of an actual human being. --Bob

Hmmm….

Lots of folks during Covid were in hospital on ventilators, unaware and completely dependent on a machine, and humans to run them. Are you saying all that money was wasted. We shouldn’t have attempted to save the non-humans?

Hmmm. Are you saying you'd be in favor of laws that prevent people from quitting the jobs running those machines on penalty of jail time? --Bob

flockofseagulls104 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:43 pm

But the citizens of that state certainly do have a say in that.

So when a state government through its legislature tells women what medical procedures they can and cannot have, that's the citizens of the government having their say.

But whenever the federal government through its elected representatives makes a decision that Flock does not like, it's evil government at work.

Beebs52 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:32 pm

Birth control has been around forever. No excuse to not use it, unless you have (insert whatever medical blah). Please. Won't effect the 600,000 elective percentage.

How soon we forget. Birth control has been around forever, but the laws in many states prohibited various forms of birth control. In 1965, Connecticut law made using birth control or advising someone on its use a crime punishable by up to a year in prison. The Supreme Court held in Griswold v. Connecticut that there was a constitutional right to privacy that the Connecticut law violated. (The Griswold decision only applied to married couples, but it was expanded to anyone a few years later in a similar case.)

That constitutional right to privacy is what the draft opinion in the Dobbs case rejects to allow them to overturn Roe. So if there is no such right, then states could start banning contraception or same-sex marriage or consensual sex acts or interracial marriage. And some conservative activists have already indicated they will try to do exactly that.

Beebs52 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:12 pm

kroxquo wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:09 pm

Beebs52 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 5:55 pm

Yes. It's called fucking birth control which is totally accessible. What is hard about that concept?

Oh, then you agree that we need sex education that informs students in middle school or even earlier about different forms of birth control, how they work, and how to access them; and to make it cheaper and more easily accessible.

Yep. At appropriate age. Most abortions are 20s etc. Refer to my response to Juch

What's an appropriate age? If you wait until high school, it's already too late. The mean age of first sexual intercourse is 15. At my school we have a pregnant sixth grader.

kroxquo wrote: ↑

Thu May 05, 2022 6:24 am

Beebs52 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:12 pm

kroxquo wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:09 pm

Oh, then you agree that we need sex education that informs students in middle school or even earlier about different forms of birth control, how they work, and how to access them; and to make it cheaper and more easily accessible.

Yep. At appropriate age. Most abortions are 20s etc. Refer to my response to Juch

What's an appropriate age? If you wait until high school, it's already too late. The mean age of first sexual intercourse is 15. At my school we have a pregnant sixth grader.

Do your high schools have day care centers for the students?

kroxquo wrote: ↑

Thu May 05, 2022 6:24 am

If you wait until high school, it's already too late. The mean age of first sexual intercourse is 15. At my school we have a pregnant sixth grader.

I found this surprising from a statistical point of view. In the population as a whole, there's a subgroup that doesn't have sex until their 20s, plus a scattering of 40-year-old virgins. But there's nobody who's sexually active at 10 to bring the mean down to 15. This article explains the data:

Mean Age of First Sex: Do They Know What We Mean?

The studies focus on sexually active teenagers, so people who wait until adulthood don't drive up the mean. Now it makes sense.

kroxquo wrote: ↑

Thu May 05, 2022 6:24 am

Beebs52 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:12 pm

kroxquo wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:09 pm

Oh, then you agree that we need sex education that informs students in middle school or even earlier about different forms of birth control, how they work, and how to access them; and to make it cheaper and more easily accessible.

Yep. At appropriate age. Most abortions are 20s etc. Refer to my response to Juch

What's an appropriate age? If you wait until high school, it's already too late. The mean age of first sexual intercourse is 15. At my school we have a pregnant sixth grader.

I didn't mean start educating in the 20s. I seem to recall middle or jr high school when growing up. I would venture sex ed in 2nd grade would probably not have prevented the 6th grader's pregnancy. I had a "talk" with my mother sometime in grade school.

Beebs52 wrote: ↑

Thu May 05, 2022 9:09 am

kroxquo wrote: ↑

Thu May 05, 2022 6:24 am

Beebs52 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:12 pm

Yep. At appropriate age. Most abortions are 20s etc. Refer to my response to Juch

What's an appropriate age? If you wait until high school, it's already too late. The mean age of first sexual intercourse is 15. At my school we have a pregnant sixth grader.

I didn't mean start educating in the 20s. I seem to recall middle or jr high school when growing up. I would venture sex ed in 2nd grade would probably not have prevented the 6th grader's pregnancy. I had a "talk" with my mother sometime in grade school.

From my own point of view as I remember from my Jr high School days, Sex Education class was not really very effective. At that time, when you get into the teenage years, you start looking at your teachers the same way you start looking at all adults. They suddenly become something less than respected. They aren't cool. They're old and out of touch. They don't know what's really happening.
So our sex ed class was something of a joke for most of us.
I don't imagine, especially based on the current state of our society (Day Care for High School parents?) that Sex Ed Classes have become any more effective.
I don't remember ANY of my Jr High or High School classmates ever getting pregnant or any of my female classmates suddenly disappearing. I assume there may have been some, but none I knew about.
I know there was sex going on. But I know I was cognizant of the consequences and was as careful as I could be at the time. Birth Control was just becoming available, but not so much to high schoolers.
Even if you do have teachers teach this information, how do you make it relevant and not something for teenagers to joke about? Especially in today's culture?

You can teach it in school, but I think the message and the consequences are much more concrete if they are taught within the family.

One thing I knew: If I got a girl pregnant, there was going to be a LOT of hell to pay and a lot of problems. For me, my future, the girl's life and inside my family. Do today's high schoolers not know that?

tlynn78 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 8:11 pm

Bob78164 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:49 pm

Beebs52 wrote: ↑

Wed May 04, 2022 7:25 pm

Who knows. But at least they didn't kill their babies. So there's that.

This is the fundamental disagreement that I doubt we'll ever be able to bridge. A fetus, particularly a first-trimester fetus, is not a "baby."

Weird, pretty sure I've never attended a fetus shower. Oh, and go fuck yourself. My first trimester miscarriage resulted in the death of my first child. Your opinion could not be less relevant.

It's just not, any more than is an unfertilized egg or a sperm cell.

If you dont comprehend the difference between a sperm cell or unfertilized egg, and a human embryo, well...i guess that wouldnt really surprise me.

It has not yet completed the climb from non-awareness to awareness, and it is wholly dependent on the body of an actual human being. --Bob

So is a newborn wholly dependant, a two week-old, a three month-old; you good to kill those, too?

I think most people totally get mourning the loss of a fetus by miscarriage, whatever the stage of development. And, I even get the viewpoint of those who would want to hold the women and doctors and others involved accountable for murder, if that's what one believes is occurring. That's just not the way that I look at it. Do any of y'all know women who have had an abortion whom you judge in that way? And, if so, I'd be curious to know whether you judge them all in that way, or just some of them.