Racism, game fixing and botched emails

The forum for general posting. Come join the madness. :)
Post Reply
Message
Author
User avatar
jarnon
Posts: 5544
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:52 pm
Location: Merion, Pa.

Racism, game fixing and botched emails

#1 Post by jarnon » Thu Feb 03, 2022 11:25 am

Brian Flores’ lawsuit is a brave effort to challenge the NFL on racism

Pull quotes:

>>> Flores last week received a series of bungled text messages from New England Patriots coach Bill Belichick, his former boss. The texts reveal Belichick knew that, before the Giants conducted their interview with Flores on Jan. 27, they already had decided to hire Bills offensive coordinator Brian Daboll, who is white.

Belichick got his Brians mixed up. <<<

So old Bill's lack of tech savvy gave Flores the smoking gun for his suit.

>>> Flores claims that after he was hired in 2019, Dolphins owner Stephen Ross met with him on a yacht in a Miami marina and ordered him to lose games on purpose to improve the struggling team’s draft status. Ross, Flores said, offered him $100,000 per loss.

Flores’ response: “That’s never gonna happen,” he said Wednesday on ESPN’s Get Up.

Ross then cast Flores as an uncooperative employee and eventually fired him.

In hindsight, Flores probably should have called the FBI, since match-fixing is a felony. This is the sort of allegation Congress loves to investigate, too.

Ross’ alleged order to tank not only affects the integrity of the game but also the integrity of the gambling industry, with which the NFL has become a lucrative partner. Ross might have to worry about a lot more than the feds. <<<

Yeah, he may find a severed dolphin head on his bed.

User avatar
BackInTex
Posts: 11810
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:43 pm
Location: In Texas of course!

Re: Racism, game fixing and botched emails

#2 Post by BackInTex » Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:38 pm

>>> Flores last week received a series of bungled text messages from New England Patriots coach Bill Belichick, his former boss. The texts reveal Belichick knew that, before the Giants conducted their interview with Flores on Jan. 27, they already had decided to hire Bills offensive coordinator Brian Daboll, who is white
All that "could" mean is that they already felt Daboll was the right coach but offered Flores an interview to make sure (or to appease the race focused folks by having the token interview for show).

If anything, they could say his race is why they interviewed him but not why they didn't hire him.
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
~~ Thomas Jefferson

User avatar
Bob78164
Bored Moderator
Posts: 20632
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:02 pm
Location: By the phone

Re: Racism, game fixing and botched emails

#3 Post by Bob78164 » Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:43 pm

BackInTex wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:38 pm
>>> Flores last week received a series of bungled text messages from New England Patriots coach Bill Belichick, his former boss. The texts reveal Belichick knew that, before the Giants conducted their interview with Flores on Jan. 27, they already had decided to hire Bills offensive coordinator Brian Daboll, who is white
All that "could" mean is that they already felt Daboll was the right coach but offered Flores an interview to make sure (or to appease the race focused folks by having the token interview for show).

If anything, they could say his race is why they interviewed him but not why they didn't hire him.
In other words, they could say that the interview was a fig leaf to justify a decision they'd already made. That's not going to help them defend the lawsuit. Quite the opposite. It's pretty much what Flores is going to need to prove in court. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

User avatar
BackInTex
Posts: 11810
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:43 pm
Location: In Texas of course!

Re: Racism, game fixing and botched emails

#4 Post by BackInTex » Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:46 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:43 pm
BackInTex wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:38 pm
>>> Flores last week received a series of bungled text messages from New England Patriots coach Bill Belichick, his former boss. The texts reveal Belichick knew that, before the Giants conducted their interview with Flores on Jan. 27, they already had decided to hire Bills offensive coordinator Brian Daboll, who is white
All that "could" mean is that they already felt Daboll was the right coach but offered Flores an interview to make sure (or to appease the race focused folks by having the token interview for show).

If anything, they could say his race is why they interviewed him but not why they didn't hire him.
In other words, they could say that the interview was a fig leaf to justify a decision they'd already made. That's not going to help them defend the lawsuit. Quite the opposite. It's pretty much what Flores is going to need to prove in court. --Bob
If the interview was to "justify" a previous decision then I think it hurts his case because he was in consideration.
If it was a "fig leaf", or as I called it a token interview, then the team's defense could be pressure from the NFL to interview more minority candidates.
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
~~ Thomas Jefferson

User avatar
Appa23
Posts: 3706
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:04 pm

Re: Racism, game fixing and botched emails

#5 Post by Appa23 » Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:00 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:43 pm
BackInTex wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:38 pm
>>> Flores last week received a series of bungled text messages from New England Patriots coach Bill Belichick, his former boss. The texts reveal Belichick knew that, before the Giants conducted their interview with Flores on Jan. 27, they already had decided to hire Bills offensive coordinator Brian Daboll, who is white
All that "could" mean is that they already felt Daboll was the right coach but offered Flores an interview to make sure (or to appease the race focused folks by having the token interview for show).

If anything, they could say his race is why they interviewed him but not why they didn't hire him.
In other words, they could say that the interview was a fig leaf to justify a decision they'd already made. That's not going to help them defend the lawsuit. Quite the opposite. It's pretty much what Flores is going to need to prove in court. --Bob
Holy Crap! I have to agree with Bob. If that was the case, then the Giants completely misapplied the NFL's Rooney Rule.

Beyond any legal consideration, if the Giant's decision was made as BiT indicated, it was a terrible business process. You want to hire the best, and you don't know who is the best until you have completed the interviews. Certainly, you can have a leading candidate, but why limit your possibilities before you must. I am in the process of several hiring actions, and this always has been my credo. I may have a higher-graded position that I believe a member of my staff is perfect to fill, but I still look to see if there is anyone else who is "more perfect".

BTW, I really suspect that Belichick did not make a mistake in sending those emails. He has run too many "-gate" operations while the Patriots coach to not know what he was doing. I think that he wanted to give some tangible evidence to Flores.

User avatar
silverscreenselect
Posts: 20497
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Racism, game fixing and botched emails

#6 Post by silverscreenselect » Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:20 pm

Appa23 wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:00 pm
BTW, I really suspect that Belichick did not make a mistake in sending those emails. He has run too many "-gate" operations while the Patriots coach to not know what he was doing. I think that he wanted to give some tangible evidence to Flores.
How is Bill Belichick privy to the New York Giants interviewing and hiring process? Did someone in Giants ownership talk to him? I find it difficult to believe that anyone in either Buffalo or the Giants organization would be giving Belichick anything more than the time of day, if that.

As a Giants fan, I followed the hiring process for both GM Joe Schoen and Coach Brian Daboll. Daboll worked with Schoen in Buffalo, so it makes sense that he would have an advantage over other candidates. It's important that the GM and Head Coach be on the same page, especially with a team as woeful as the Giants have been the last few years. It was widely felt around the NFL that once Schoen was hired, Daboll was the most likely choice for coach. That doesn't mean that the interview of Flores was a waste of time. Even if Daboll really impressed the Giants, he might have turned the job down (see Harbaugh, Jim) or Flores might really have impressed them.
Check out our website: http://www.silverscreenvideos.com

User avatar
Bob78164
Bored Moderator
Posts: 20632
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:02 pm
Location: By the phone

Re: Racism, game fixing and botched emails

#7 Post by Bob78164 » Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:27 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:20 pm
As a Giants fan, I followed the hiring process for both GM Joe Schoen and Coach Brian Daboll. Daboll worked with Schoen in Buffalo, so it makes sense that he would have an advantage over other candidates.
This, of course, is precisely how early racism in hiring can perpetuate itself. If Daboll had a better chance the Flores had to get the Buffalo job because of their respective races . . . . --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

User avatar
jaybee
Posts: 1907
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:44 pm
Location: Knoxville, TN

Re: Racism, game fixing and botched emails

#8 Post by jaybee » Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:43 pm

Just out of curiosity - Were there any others who had an interview lined up that didn't happen in this same timeframe? If so, that is going to take a lot of the smoke out of this smoking gun information. Even if Flores was the only other candidate, it's such a common practice to schedule 'interviews' when the company is already pretty sure in advance who they want the job to go to. It could be that they are racist and didn't want to hire a black coach. Or it could be that they really wanted DaBoll for the job and were just making a show of considering others. Going to be hard to prove.
Jaybee

User avatar
Vandal
Director of Promos
Posts: 5795
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:42 pm
Location: Literary Circles
Contact:

Re: Racism, game fixing and botched emails

#9 Post by Vandal » Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:21 pm

Remember, the NYG are the same organization that hired Ben McAdoo, Pat Shurmur and Joe Judge in succession after pushing Tom Coughlin out the door. Yup, sure seems like they know what they’re doing.
_________________________________________________________________________________
Available now:
The Secret At Haney Field: A Baseball Mystery
The Right Hand Rule
Center Point
Dizzy Miss Lizzie
Running On Empty
The Tick Tock Man
The Dragon's Song by Binh Pham and R. M. Clark

Visit my website: http://www.rmclarkauthor.com

Ready: Devin Drake and The Family Secret

Working on:
Devin Drake and The RollerGhoster

User avatar
silverscreenselect
Posts: 20497
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Racism, game fixing and botched emails

#10 Post by silverscreenselect » Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:38 pm

Vandal wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:21 pm
Remember, the NYG are the same organization that hired Ben McAdoo, Pat Shurmur and Joe Judge in succession after pushing Tom Coughlin out the door. Yup, sure seems like they know what they’re doing.
They know what they're doing once they get to a Super Bowl.
Check out our website: http://www.silverscreenvideos.com

User avatar
silverscreenselect
Posts: 20497
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Racism, game fixing and botched emails

#11 Post by silverscreenselect » Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:41 pm

jaybee wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:43 pm
Just out of curiosity - Were there any others who had an interview lined up that didn't happen in this same timeframe? If so, that is going to take a lot of the smoke out of this smoking gun information. Even if Flores was the only other candidate, it's such a common practice to schedule 'interviews' when the company is already pretty sure in advance who they want the job to go to. It could be that they are racist and didn't want to hire a black coach. Or it could be that they really wanted DaBoll for the job and were just making a show of considering others. Going to be hard to prove.
Timeline of the Giants interviewing process:

https://larrybrownsports.com/football/t ... ent/591390
Check out our website: http://www.silverscreenvideos.com

User avatar
Vandal
Director of Promos
Posts: 5795
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:42 pm
Location: Literary Circles
Contact:

Re: Racism, game fixing and botched emails

#12 Post by Vandal » Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:35 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:38 pm
Vandal wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:21 pm
Remember, the NYG are the same organization that hired Ben McAdoo, Pat Shurmur and Joe Judge in succession after pushing Tom Coughlin out the door. Yup, sure seems like they know what they’re doing.
They know what they're doing once they get to a Super Bowl.
Something they won't get to prove for another decade (or two)!
_________________________________________________________________________________
Available now:
The Secret At Haney Field: A Baseball Mystery
The Right Hand Rule
Center Point
Dizzy Miss Lizzie
Running On Empty
The Tick Tock Man
The Dragon's Song by Binh Pham and R. M. Clark

Visit my website: http://www.rmclarkauthor.com

Ready: Devin Drake and The Family Secret

Working on:
Devin Drake and The RollerGhoster

User avatar
Vandal
Director of Promos
Posts: 5795
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:42 pm
Location: Literary Circles
Contact:

Re: Racism, game fixing and botched emails

#13 Post by Vandal » Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:58 pm

2022 NFL Head Coach hires

Bears: Matt Eberflus
Broncos: Nathaniel Hackett
Dolphins:
Giants: Brian Daboll
Jaguars: Doug Pederson
Raiders: Josh McDaniels
Saints:
Texans:
Vikings: Kevin O'Connell

... NFL currently sits at 0-for-6 on the diversity front.
_________________________________________________________________________________
Available now:
The Secret At Haney Field: A Baseball Mystery
The Right Hand Rule
Center Point
Dizzy Miss Lizzie
Running On Empty
The Tick Tock Man
The Dragon's Song by Binh Pham and R. M. Clark

Visit my website: http://www.rmclarkauthor.com

Ready: Devin Drake and The Family Secret

Working on:
Devin Drake and The RollerGhoster

User avatar
BackInTex
Posts: 11810
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:43 pm
Location: In Texas of course!

Re: Racism, game fixing and botched emails

#14 Post by BackInTex » Thu Feb 03, 2022 10:09 pm

Vandal wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:58 pm
2022 NFL Head Coach hires

Bears: Matt Eberflus
Broncos: Nathaniel Hackett
Dolphins:
Giants: Brian Daboll
Jaguars: Doug Pederson
Raiders: Josh McDaniels
Saints:
Texans:
Vikings: Kevin O'Connell

... NFL currently sits at 0-for-6 on the diversity front.
I think they're doing alright considering the US is 12% black. Probably a little overweight on the black side, if you asked me. It would be nice to have it categorized by $, including coaches. I'm pretty sure black will exceed 12%. But don't tell them. Keep telling them they're victims. The Democrats need their votes.

Image
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
~~ Thomas Jefferson

User avatar
silverscreenselect
Posts: 20497
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 11:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Racism, game fixing and botched emails

#15 Post by silverscreenselect » Thu Feb 03, 2022 10:59 pm

Vandal wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:58 pm
... NFL currently sits at 0-for-6 on the diversity front.
More accurately, the NFL currently sits at 1 for 29 on the diversity front (with three to go), down from 3 for 32 the year before.
Check out our website: http://www.silverscreenvideos.com

User avatar
Appa23
Posts: 3706
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:04 pm

Re: Racism, game fixing and botched emails

#16 Post by Appa23 » Fri Feb 04, 2022 9:27 am

jaybee wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:43 pm
It could be that they are racist and didn't want to hire a black coach. Or it could be that they really wanted DaBoll for the job and were just making a show of considering others. Going to be hard to prove.
This ignores the fact that the NFL has a policy that interviewing minority candidates cannot be just "a show" about considering others. The allegation is not that there was a preference heading into the interview process, it was that was a selection made prior to interviewing the minority candidate. (BTW, for those that do not follow football, Brian Daboll twice was on Belichick's staff in New England, which is why he would have gotten calls about Daboll and why Flores asked if there was a mixup in which Brian that Belichick was talking to/about.)

Right now, the NFL owners have created a very interesting narrative for African-American coaches -- you can keep your job as long as you never have a losing season. (see Mike Tomlin.)

I also can tell you that the easiest way for an organization to stagnate and not achieve future success is to keep doing the same thing and being comfortable "because I have worked with this person."

Anecdotally, it seems to me that African-American coaches may have a higher success rate than their Caucasian counterparts. For every Hue Jackson or Ray Rhodes, you have Tony Dungy, Dennis Green, and Tomlin. Brian Flores himself was fired after improving the Dolphin's recent win record, including multiple wins over the Patriots.

User avatar
jaybee
Posts: 1907
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 8:44 pm
Location: Knoxville, TN

Re: Racism, game fixing and botched emails

#17 Post by jaybee » Fri Feb 04, 2022 9:54 am

Appa23 wrote:
Fri Feb 04, 2022 9:27 am
jaybee wrote:
Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:43 pm
It could be that they are racist and didn't want to hire a black coach. Or it could be that they really wanted DaBoll for the job and were just making a show of considering others. Going to be hard to prove.
This ignores the fact that the NFL has a policy that interviewing minority candidates cannot be just "a show" about considering others. The allegation is not that there was a preference heading into the interview process, it was that was a selection made prior to interviewing the minority candidate. (BTW, for those that do not follow football, Brian Daboll twice was on Belichick's staff in New England, which is why he would have gotten calls about Daboll and why Flores asked if there was a mixup in which Brian that Belichick was talking to/about.)

Right now, the NFL owners have created a very interesting narrative for African-American coaches -- you can keep your job as long as you never have a losing season. (see Mike Tomlin.)

I also can tell you that the easiest way for an organization to stagnate and not achieve future success is to keep doing the same thing and being comfortable "because I have worked with this person."

Anecdotally, it seems to me that African-American coaches may have a higher success rate than their Caucasian counterparts. For every Hue Jackson or Ray Rhodes, you have Tony Dungy, Dennis Green, and Tomlin. Brian Flores himself was fired after improving the Dolphin's recent win record, including multiple wins over the Patriots.
I certainly do not follow football or football management very much, but from where I'm sitting I just don't think anyone will be able to prove that it's a race issue. The Giants got a new GM who had worked with DaBoll before - that certainly would make DaBoll the main contender - happens all the time. IIRC at our Univ. of TN when we last hired a new AD he brought in the new coach who he had worked with before. Made sense as he knew what he was getting. It's very common for State or Government jobs to require posting positions for a certain time period to meet their 'rules' but more often than not those positions are filled from within and those outside applicants were never really considered. Not always a 'fair' process to those outsiders but is often the best decision for the job that needs to be filled - why not go with a known skillset?

It sounds like the Belichick messages made it clear that they were really not considering anyone else other than DaBoll and they are guilty of not following the hiring process to the letter. But as there were others involved who also did not get the job, proving racism is going to be difficult.
Jaybee

User avatar
Ritterskoop
Posts: 5593
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:16 pm
Location: Charlotte, NC

Re: Racism, game fixing and botched emails

#18 Post by Ritterskoop » Sat Feb 05, 2022 3:30 pm

The United States population is 15-16% Black, last I saw (which may be a little out of date), but more than 70% of the NFL's players are Black or another ethnic minority. The goal of the Rooney Rule is for coaching to be more representative of the league, not so much of the general population.

Ron Rivera and two other coaches are not white, and I will be interested to see if the Rooney Rule is amended at some point to include all non-white folks, not just Black folks.
If you fail to pilot your own ship, don't be surprised at what inappropriate port you find yourself docked. - Tom Robbins
--------
At the moment of commitment, the universe conspires to assist you. - attributed to Johann Wolfgang von Goethe.

User avatar
Vandal
Director of Promos
Posts: 5795
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:42 pm
Location: Literary Circles
Contact:

Re: Racism, game fixing and botched emails

#19 Post by Vandal » Sat Feb 05, 2022 3:31 pm

NFL commissioner Roger Goodell sent a memo Saturday morning to all 32 NFL teams saying that efforts to diversify the league's coaching ranks have produced "unacceptable" results and added that the league will look into allegations of tanking.

The memo comes days after former Miami Dolphins head coach Flores filed a proposed class-action lawsuit alleging racial discrimination in hiring practices.

The NFL, Dolphins, New York Giants and Denver Broncos were named as defendants in the lawsuit, in which Flores says those teams conducted "sham" interviews to satisfy the Rooney Rule, which mandates that teams interview minority candidates for head coaching and front office positions.

Flores also said Dolphins owner Stephen Ross offered him $100,000 per game to lose on purpose.

Nine head coaching positions were open the beginning of the year. Five have been filled so far, all by white men. The Vikings are set to hire Rams offensive coordinator Kevin O’Connell as head coach but can’t until after the Super Bowl. The Dolphins, New Orleans Saints and Houston Texans have not hired new coaches.


https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/n ... 75416001/
_________________________________________________________________________________
Available now:
The Secret At Haney Field: A Baseball Mystery
The Right Hand Rule
Center Point
Dizzy Miss Lizzie
Running On Empty
The Tick Tock Man
The Dragon's Song by Binh Pham and R. M. Clark

Visit my website: http://www.rmclarkauthor.com

Ready: Devin Drake and The Family Secret

Working on:
Devin Drake and The RollerGhoster

User avatar
jarnon
Posts: 5544
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:52 pm
Location: Merion, Pa.

Re: Racism, game fixing and botched emails

#20 Post by jarnon » Tue May 03, 2022 7:33 am

Another team suspected of tanking:

NFL clears Browns after former coach said team tanked games

The Browns, like the Dolphins and Giants, are perfectly capable of losing without intentionally trying to.

Post Reply