You Go Girl, I Guess

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Spock
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You Go Girl, I Guess

#1 Post by Spock » Thu Dec 09, 2021 9:57 am

Lia Thomas, the male to female transgender swimmer that is shattering women's swimming records in the Ivy League and is in reach of women's world records.

https://nypost.com/2021/12/07/dominatin ... s-selfish/

My heart breaks for the girls who have spent years of their lives in the pool and, now, for what?

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Re: You Go Girl, I Guess

#2 Post by BackInTex » Thu Dec 09, 2021 12:36 pm

Yes....and so it continues


Six years ago I raised the flag here. Some don't care, some probably actually support it, but those who care about women's athletics do care and are absolutely appalled that it is even a thing.
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Re: You Go Girl, I Guess

#3 Post by silverscreenselect » Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:12 pm

Interesting that with all the well-documented abuse that female athletes encounter, Spock wants to stand up for the rights of Harvards and Yalies not to have to compete with a trans woman.
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Re: You Go Girl, I Guess

#4 Post by Beebs52 » Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:51 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:12 pm
Interesting that with all the well-documented abuse that female athletes encounter, Spock wants to stand up for the rights of Harvards and Yalies not to have to compete with a trans woman.
Do you have a list ranking what one is suppiosed to comment on, in order of importance, in the grand scheme of things? This has nothing to do with gymnastic villains.
Well, then

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Re: You Go Girl, I Guess

#5 Post by silverscreenselect » Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:02 pm

Beebs52 wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:51 pm
silverscreenselect wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:12 pm
Interesting that with all the well-documented abuse that female athletes encounter, Spock wants to stand up for the rights of Harvards and Yalies not to have to compete with a trans woman.
Do you have a list ranking what one is suppiosed to comment on, in order of importance, in the grand scheme of things? This has nothing to do with gymnastic villains.
This has nothing to do with the gymnastic villains. It has everything to do with Spock's supposed concern for female athletes, which seems to be limited to this one issue.
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Re: You Go Girl, I Guess

#6 Post by Beebs52 » Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:43 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:02 pm
Beebs52 wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:51 pm
silverscreenselect wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:12 pm
Interesting that with all the well-documented abuse that female athletes encounter, Spock wants to stand up for the rights of Harvards and Yalies not to have to compete with a trans woman.
Do you have a list ranking what one is suppiosed to comment on, in order of importance, in the grand scheme of things? This has nothing to do with gymnastic villains.
This has nothing to do with the gymnastic villains. It has everything to do with Spock's supposed concern for female athletes, which seems to be limited to this one issue.
How do you know that?
Well, then

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Re: You Go Girl, I Guess

#7 Post by BackInTex » Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:09 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:02 pm
Beebs52 wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:51 pm
silverscreenselect wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 1:12 pm
Interesting that with all the well-documented abuse that female athletes encounter, Spock wants to stand up for the rights of Harvards and Yalies not to have to compete with a trans woman.
Do you have a list ranking what one is suppiosed to comment on, in order of importance, in the grand scheme of things? This has nothing to do with gymnastic villains.
This has nothing to do with the gymnastic villains. It has everything to do with Spock's supposed concern for female athletes, which seems to be limited to this one issue.
Big f'ing difference in the two. The abuse put upon female athletes was criminal This abomination is state sanctioned, thus the increased and righteous outrage.
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Re: You Go Girl, I Guess

#8 Post by Bob78164 » Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:43 pm

BackInTex wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:09 pm
silverscreenselect wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:02 pm
Beebs52 wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 3:51 pm
Do you have a list ranking what one is suppiosed to comment on, in order of importance, in the grand scheme of things? This has nothing to do with gymnastic villains.
This has nothing to do with the gymnastic villains. It has everything to do with Spock's supposed concern for female athletes, which seems to be limited to this one issue.
Big f'ing difference in the two. The abuse put upon female athletes was criminal. This abomination is state sanctioned, thus the increased and righteous outrage.
This, right here, is where (as far as I'm concerned) you go way over the line. It's one thing to argue that it's unfair to cisgender women to have to compete against transgender women. I don't know enough about the details to have an informed opinion, but I can see that being a reasonable point of view.

But when you use the word "abomination" and compare this situation to deliberate sexual abuse of women, as far as I'm concerned you're being a bigot. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

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Re: You Go Girl, I Guess

#9 Post by BackInTex » Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:02 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:43 pm
BackInTex wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:09 pm
silverscreenselect wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:02 pm

This has nothing to do with the gymnastic villains. It has everything to do with Spock's supposed concern for female athletes, which seems to be limited to this one issue.
Big f'ing difference in the two. The abuse put upon female athletes was criminal. This abomination is state sanctioned, thus the increased and righteous outrage.
This, right here, is where (as far as I'm concerned) you go way over the line. It's one thing to argue that it's unfair to cisgender women to have to compete against transgender women. I don't know enough about the details to have an informed opinion, but I can see that being a reasonable point of view.

But when you use the word "abomination" and compare this situation to deliberate sexual abuse of women, as far as I'm concerned you're being a bigot. --Bob
Where am I comparing it to the deliberate sexual abuse? SSS did that. My comment was making the point that deliberate sexual abuse is already formally outlawed by society and the government. Sure it happens and we can all be angry that it does, but you wouldn't continue to argue against it and say its wrong. The case is settled.
Last edited by BackInTex on Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: You Go Girl, I Guess

#10 Post by Beebs52 » Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:04 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:43 pm
BackInTex wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:09 pm
silverscreenselect wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:02 pm

This has nothing to do with the gymnastic villains. It has everything to do with Spock's supposed concern for female athletes, which seems to be limited to this one issue.
Big f'ing difference in the two. The abuse put upon female athletes was criminal. This abomination is state sanctioned, thus the increased and righteous outrage.
This, right here, is where (as far as I'm concerned) you go way over the line. It's one thing to argue that it's unfair to cisgender women to have to compete against transgender women. I don't know enough about the details to have an informed opinion, but I can see that being a reasonable point of view.

But when you use the word "abomination" and compare this situation to deliberate sexual abuse of women, as far as I'm concerned you're being a bigot. --Bob
What you and sss don't understand is making a comparison between sexual abuse and this. YOU guys are
Well, then

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Re: You Go Girl, I Guess

#11 Post by Beebs52 » Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:21 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:43 pm
BackInTex wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 5:09 pm
silverscreenselect wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 4:02 pm

I don't know enough about the details to have an informed opinion, but I can see that being a reasonable point of view.

Seems to be de rigueur
Well, then

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Re: You Go Girl, I Guess

#12 Post by Ritterskoop » Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:05 pm

The IOC and the NWSL already have guidelines on this topic (surely other leagues as well; those are just the ones I happen to have read): A person's testosterone must be under X parts per milliliter to compete (might be 50, just going by memory).

The NWSL's statement said they were open to changing that number in the face of new evidence, as this is an evolving situation, but for now, they had to pick a number. The statement was very supportive of whoever wants to play, as long as their testosterone is fair to other competitors. Cis players said that 50 was still too high, as their numbers are 5-10 (again, just going by my memory), but someone had to pick a number.

I would be surprised if the NCAA does not have a similar guideline, and if they do, then this swimmer is as legal as we can make it right now.

I am sympathetic to competitors who feel like they have no chance against certain athletes, but we are in a period where we are trying to figure stuff out, and it's too bad. I've been trying in my head to compare it with Negro Leagues players who never got a chance to compete in the majors, and they are both stories of people who are unlucky enough to play at the wrong time.
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Re: You Go Girl, I Guess

#13 Post by silverscreenselect » Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:25 pm

BackInTex wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:02 pm
Where am I comparing it to the deliberate sexual abuse? SSS did that.
My comment wasn't an attempt to compare this to deliberate sexual abuse. It was a look at what concerns Spock. And apparently this concerns him more than the sexual abuse of female athletes does.
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Re: You Go Girl, I Guess

#14 Post by Estonut » Fri Dec 10, 2021 1:16 am

silverscreenselect wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 11:25 pm
BackInTex wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 6:02 pm
Where am I comparing it to the deliberate sexual abuse? SSS did that.
My comment wasn't an attempt to compare this to deliberate sexual abuse. It was a look at what concerns Spock. And apparently this concerns him more than the sexual abuse of female athletes does.
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Re: You Go Girl, I Guess

#15 Post by BackInTex » Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:36 am

Ritterskoop wrote:
Thu Dec 09, 2021 10:05 pm
The IOC and the NWSL already have guidelines on this topic (surely other leagues as well; those are just the ones I happen to have read): A person's testosterone must be under X parts per milliliter to compete (might be 50, just going by memory).

The NWSL's statement said they were open to changing that number in the face of new evidence, as this is an evolving situation, but for now, they had to pick a number. The statement was very supportive of whoever wants to play, as long as their testosterone is fair to other competitors. Cis players said that 50 was still too high, as their numbers are 5-10 (again, just going by my memory), but someone had to pick a number.

I would be surprised if the NCAA does not have a similar guideline, and if they do, then this swimmer is as legal as we can make it right now.

I am sympathetic to competitors who feel like they have no chance against certain athletes, but we are in a period where we are trying to figure stuff out, and it's too bad. I've been trying in my head to compare it with Negro Leagues players who never got a chance to compete in the majors, and they are both stories of people who are unlucky enough to play at the wrong time.
We are not trying to figure stuff out.
Define "we" because I nor everyone I know is not trying to figure this stuff out. We already understand biology.

Comparing the black players who weren't allowed to compete with whites is not an accurate or fair comparison. In fact, I think it quite insulting. This isn't about color of the skin but the structure, size, and strength of what the skin contains.

"The statement was very supportive of whoever wants to play, as long as their testosterone is fair to other competitors. "

So we are to ignore the advantage of having normal male (i.e. higher) testosterone levels from puberty until you're 22 to what, 30? Then "as long as you lower your levels now, it's fair".? BS! 10-15 years of growth (muscle mass, skeletal size, lung capacity, etc.) provides a huge advantage that doesn't go away just because the octane in the fuel is reduced.
The average American woman is 5-foot-4, 166 pounds. Men are 5-foot-9, 198 pounds
And to ignore or dismiss that is intellectually dishonest in the name of, what, political correctness, wokeness, "progressiveness"? This is not progress. It is insanity.
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Re: You Go Girl, I Guess

#16 Post by silverscreenselect » Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:45 am

BackInTex wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:36 am
So we are to ignore the advantage of having normal male (i.e. higher) testosterone levels from puberty until you're 22 to what, 30? Then "as long as you lower your levels now, it's fair".? BS! 10-15 years of growth (muscle mass, skeletal size, lung capacity, etc.) provides a huge advantage that doesn't go away just because the octane in the fuel is reduced.
The average American woman is 5-foot-4, 166 pounds. Men are 5-foot-9, 198 pounds
And to ignore or dismiss that is intellectually dishonest in the name of, what, political correctness, wokeness, "progressiveness"? This is not progress. It is insanity.
Athletes are not average people. They do have competitive advantages over the general public. Should we have banned Michael Phelps from competitive swimming because he was too well muscled? He had the advantage of a father who was a former college athlete providing half of his genes. Should we ban those who have years of private coaching and training? An "average" male who undergoes what this swimmer went through would not be winning conference championships as a female.

The question isn't whether some athletes have competitive advantages over others. It's to what extent we limit the advantages of those who participate in sports for health or competitive balance purposes. We already know athletes will pump themselves full of any drug known to medical science if they think it will help them perform. The various sporting bodies do the best they can to regulate what substances athletes can and cannot take. It's an imperfect process, as Skoop noted.
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Re: You Go Girl, I Guess

#17 Post by Weyoun » Fri Dec 10, 2021 9:20 am

I’ll pile on the ad hominems by noting that Spock is more angry about this than any single death from Covid.

If I had a daughter, I would tell her to ignore a phenotypically male competitor. If she beats everyone else, she wins.

But beyond that, I do not really care about the issue, because I don’t care about marginal Ivy League sports.

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Re: You Go Girl, I Guess

#18 Post by BackInTex » Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:30 am

Weyoun wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 9:20 am
I’ll pile on the ad hominems by noting that Spock is more angry about this than any single death from Covid.

If I had a daughter, I would tell her to ignore a phenotypically male competitor. If she beats everyone else, she wins.

But beyond that, I do not really care about the issue, because I don’t care about marginal Ivy League sports.
And what happens in your emergency room doesn't impact 99.999% of the world. Yet, we can both agree that a lot of what happens in your emergency room happens everywhere so we should be concerned about it. Ivy League sports are not in a bubble.

We can be glad you don't have a daughter. That's terrible advice for any child, for any accomplishment they've worked on so hard, to be denied unfairly the recognition and reward they deserve.
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Re: You Go Girl, I Guess

#19 Post by BackInTex » Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:32 am

silverscreenselect wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 7:45 am
BackInTex wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 6:36 am
So we are to ignore the advantage of having normal male (i.e. higher) testosterone levels from puberty until you're 22 to what, 30? Then "as long as you lower your levels now, it's fair".? BS! 10-15 years of growth (muscle mass, skeletal size, lung capacity, etc.) provides a huge advantage that doesn't go away just because the octane in the fuel is reduced.
The average American woman is 5-foot-4, 166 pounds. Men are 5-foot-9, 198 pounds
And to ignore or dismiss that is intellectually dishonest in the name of, what, political correctness, wokeness, "progressiveness"? This is not progress. It is insanity.
Athletes are not average people. They do have competitive advantages over the general public. Should we have banned Michael Phelps from competitive swimming because he was too well muscled? He had the advantage of a father who was a former college athlete providing half of his genes. Should we ban those who have years of private coaching and training? An "average" male who undergoes what this swimmer went through would not be winning conference championships as a female.

The question isn't whether some athletes have competitive advantages over others. It's to what extent we limit the advantages of those who participate in sports for health or competitive balance purposes. We already know athletes will pump themselves full of any drug known to medical science if they think it will help them perform. The various sporting bodies do the best they can to regulate what substances athletes can and cannot take. It's an imperfect process, as Skoop noted.
Based on your comments above you appear to think we shouldn't even have separation between men and women's sports. To hell with Title IX?
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Re: You Go Girl, I Guess

#20 Post by Weyoun » Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:35 am

BackInTex wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:30 am
Weyoun wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 9:20 am
I’ll pile on the ad hominems by noting that Spock is more angry about this than any single death from Covid.

If I had a daughter, I would tell her to ignore a phenotypically male competitor. If she beats everyone else, she wins.

But beyond that, I do not really care about the issue, because I don’t care about marginal Ivy League sports.
And what happens in your emergency room doesn't impact 99.999% of the world. Yet, we can both agree that a lot of what happens in your emergency room happens everywhere so we should be concerned about it. Ivy League sports are not in a bubble.

We can be glad you don't have a daughter. That's terrible advice for any child, for any accomplishment they've worked on so hard, to be denied unfairly the recognition and reward they deserve.
So you don't think a major crisis in American healthcare might effect you in the slightest? How naive. Trying getting effective care right now.

Trying getting effective care FIVE YEARS from now. This crisis is driving workers away from health care.

And what the hell are you talking about, glad I don't have a daughter? I just said above I found the thing absurd, and that I would tell her to ignore the dubious victory of any phenotypically male competitor.

You're as a bad as Spock. You are actually more concerned, and more angry, about a transgender person winning a competition than you are about human beings NEEDLESSLY dying.

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Re: You Go Girl, I Guess

#21 Post by BackInTex » Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:46 am

Weyoun wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:35 am
BackInTex wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:30 am
Weyoun wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 9:20 am
I’ll pile on the ad hominems by noting that Spock is more angry about this than any single death from Covid.

If I had a daughter, I would tell her to ignore a phenotypically male competitor. If she beats everyone else, she wins.

But beyond that, I do not really care about the issue, because I don’t care about marginal Ivy League sports.
And what happens in your emergency room doesn't impact 99.999% of the world. Yet, we can both agree that a lot of what happens in your emergency room happens everywhere so we should be concerned about it. Ivy League sports are not in a bubble.

We can be glad you don't have a daughter. That's terrible advice for any child, for any accomplishment they've worked on so hard, to be denied unfairly the recognition and reward they deserve.
So you don't think a major crisis in American healthcare might effect you in the slightest? How naive. Trying getting effective care right now.

Trying getting effective care FIVE YEARS from now. This crisis is driving workers away from health care.

And what the hell are you talking about, glad I don't have a daughter? I just said above I found the thing absurd, and that I would tell her to ignore the dubious victory of any phenotypically male competitor.

You're as a bad as Spock. You are actually more concerned, and more angry, about a transgender person winning a competition than you are about human beings NEEDLESSLY dying.
Typical, you are misreading my comment, once again, and my comparison to you dismissing the situation at Penn State because it is Ivy League and you don't care about Ivy League.

I'll try to be more clear. What happens in your emergency room, John Doe's death, Jill Smith being newly crippled, doesn't impact anyone outside your emergency room and the families of those involved. But what caused them to die or become crippled happens everywhere and we should be concerned about it. And I did say that above, you just chose to ignore it (I underlined and bolded it for you above).

No where in what I said above did I indicate I cared more about the transgender issue than medical issue. Just trying to make you see that your dismissal of the situation because it is at an Ivy League school is, to be polite, short sighted.
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Re: You Go Girl, I Guess

#22 Post by Weyoun » Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:25 am

BackInTex wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:46 am
Weyoun wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:35 am
BackInTex wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:30 am


And what happens in your emergency room doesn't impact 99.999% of the world. Yet, we can both agree that a lot of what happens in your emergency room happens everywhere so we should be concerned about it. Ivy League sports are not in a bubble.

We can be glad you don't have a daughter. That's terrible advice for any child, for any accomplishment they've worked on so hard, to be denied unfairly the recognition and reward they deserve.
So you don't think a major crisis in American healthcare might effect you in the slightest? How naive. Trying getting effective care right now.

Trying getting effective care FIVE YEARS from now. This crisis is driving workers away from health care.

And what the hell are you talking about, glad I don't have a daughter? I just said above I found the thing absurd, and that I would tell her to ignore the dubious victory of any phenotypically male competitor.

You're as a bad as Spock. You are actually more concerned, and more angry, about a transgender person winning a competition than you are about human beings NEEDLESSLY dying.
Typical, you are misreading my comment, once again, and my comparison to you dismissing the situation at Penn State because it is Ivy League and you don't care about Ivy League.

I'll try to be more clear. What happens in your emergency room, John Doe's death, Jill Smith being newly crippled, doesn't impact anyone outside your emergency room and the families of those involved. But what caused them to die or become crippled happens everywhere and we should be concerned about it. And I did say that above, you just chose to ignore it (I underlined and bolded it for you above).

No where in what I said above did I indicate I cared more about the transgender issue than medical issue. Just trying to make you see that your dismissal of the situation because it is at an Ivy League school is, to be polite, short sighted.
Now you’re just ranting. Since when is Penn State an Ivy League school? Work on getting the basic facts right and come back to me

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Re: You Go Girl, I Guess

#23 Post by tlynn78 » Fri Dec 10, 2021 11:56 am

BackInTex wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:46 am
Weyoun wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:35 am
BackInTex wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 10:30 am


And what happens in your emergency room doesn't impact 99.999% of the world. Yet, we can both agree that a lot of what happens in your emergency room happens everywhere so we should be concerned about it. Ivy League sports are not in a bubble.

We can be glad you don't have a daughter. That's terrible advice for any child, for any accomplishment they've worked on so hard, to be denied unfairly the recognition and reward they deserve.
So you don't think a major crisis in American healthcare might effect you in the slightest? How naive. Trying getting effective care right now.

Trying getting effective care FIVE YEARS from now. This crisis is driving workers away from health care.

And what the hell are you talking about, glad I don't have a daughter? I just said above I found the thing absurd, and that I would tell her to ignore the dubious victory of any phenotypically male competitor.

You're as a bad as Spock. You are actually more concerned, and more angry, about a transgender person winning a competition than you are about human beings NEEDLESSLY dying.
Typical, you are misreading my comment, once again, and my comparison to you dismissing the situation at Penn State because it is Ivy League and you don't care about Ivy League.

I'll try to be more clear. What happens in your emergency room, John Doe's death, Jill Smith being newly crippled, doesn't impact anyone outside your emergency room and the families of those involved. But what caused them to die or become crippled happens everywhere and we should be concerned about it. And I did say that above, you just chose to ignore it (I underlined and bolded it for you above).

No where in what I said above did I indicate I cared more about the transgender issue than medical issue. Just trying to make you see that your dismissal of the situation because it is at an Ivy League school is, to be polite, short sighted.
Not to mention, any hypothetical daughter given that advice can certainly 'ignore' the transgendered "winner," but they must also live with the fact that they may well be denied scholarship money for which they otherwise may have been eligible.
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. -Thomas Paine
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Re: You Go Girl, I Guess

#24 Post by Beebs52 » Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:04 pm

Weyoun, you first said it

"But beyond that, I do not really care about the issue, because I don’t care about marginal Ivy League sports"

Regardless of the school, which you also mischaracterized, swimming is not "marginal" nor confined to Ivy League competitions.
Well, then

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Re: You Go Girl, I Guess

#25 Post by BackInTex » Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:34 pm

Beebs52 wrote:
Fri Dec 10, 2021 12:04 pm
Weyoun, you first said it

"But beyond that, I do not really care about the issue, because I don’t care about marginal Ivy League sports"

Regardless of the school, which you also mischaracterized, swimming is not "marginal" nor confined to Ivy League competitions.
Don't argue facts with him. He has greater knowledge and knows everything. He probably listens to his patients the same way. People get the wrong kidneys removed by people like him. "Doc I told you to remove my left kidney". "I did, I removed the kidney on the left."
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
~~ Thomas Jefferson

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