Thoughts on a Killing
- kroxquo
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Thoughts on a Killing
My wife dispatches 9-1-1 and she had a call recently that left her very shaken. A woman called and said her boyfriend had been shot in the face and that the shooter was her ex-husband. The boyfriend was in the woman's car in the ex-husband's driveway. The woman's children (ex-husband was the father) were in the backseat of the car. There had been numerous domestic disturbance calls at this address in the past and ex-husband had made the statement that if ex-wife showed up with the boyfriend again, "there would be trouble." (quote from a police statement of one of the previous incidents). So when the couple showed up again, another altercation broke out and this time ex-husband pulled his gun and shot and killed boyfriend while his children watched in the back seat. He then went back into his house while ex-wife called 911 and remained there until police arrived and he was arrested.
My wife and i have been going back and forth over this. She feels that the victim in this case bears some responsibility for his death, as does the ex-wife. According to her, they had been warned not to come around and did anyway. While Karen (my wife) does not feel in any way that this excuses the murder, it should be a mitigating factor in the degree. I disagree with her. They were not trespassing on his property; they were there for a legitimate purpose - custody exchange. To me, the previous circumstances do not mitigate what appears to me to be premeditation.
This came back to my mind in reading the discussion on the Rittenhouse verdict. I don't think Kyle Rittenhouse had any business being in Kenosha that evening and that he wanted to play soldier and that he was looking for trouble. But does that mean he cannot defend himself if he finds it? I will admit I only followed the trial in the most cursory way and have not seen any of the video, so I really cannot comment on whether what he did was self-defense or not. But my point is that if he truly felt his life was in danger, does he have the right to defend himself, even if he put himself in harm's way to begin with?
To put it another way, if I go to primarily African-American East Kinston (the town near where I live) and put on a Klan robe and walk down the street waving a Confederate flag, I would almost certainly accosted, assaulted and possibly have my life in danger. Would I be allowed to then say it is self-defense on my part to pull a gun and shoot at my attackers?
I am troubled by these types of questions.
My wife and i have been going back and forth over this. She feels that the victim in this case bears some responsibility for his death, as does the ex-wife. According to her, they had been warned not to come around and did anyway. While Karen (my wife) does not feel in any way that this excuses the murder, it should be a mitigating factor in the degree. I disagree with her. They were not trespassing on his property; they were there for a legitimate purpose - custody exchange. To me, the previous circumstances do not mitigate what appears to me to be premeditation.
This came back to my mind in reading the discussion on the Rittenhouse verdict. I don't think Kyle Rittenhouse had any business being in Kenosha that evening and that he wanted to play soldier and that he was looking for trouble. But does that mean he cannot defend himself if he finds it? I will admit I only followed the trial in the most cursory way and have not seen any of the video, so I really cannot comment on whether what he did was self-defense or not. But my point is that if he truly felt his life was in danger, does he have the right to defend himself, even if he put himself in harm's way to begin with?
To put it another way, if I go to primarily African-American East Kinston (the town near where I live) and put on a Klan robe and walk down the street waving a Confederate flag, I would almost certainly accosted, assaulted and possibly have my life in danger. Would I be allowed to then say it is self-defense on my part to pull a gun and shoot at my attackers?
I am troubled by these types of questions.
You live and learn. Or at least you live. - Douglas Adams
- tlynn78
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Re: Thoughts on a Killing
In our court, when custody exchange issues rise to this level, the courts generally order the exchanges take place in a public, neutral place, such as the Sheriff's office parking lot. Of course, where there's a will...
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. -Thomas Paine
You can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality. -Ayn Rand
Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
You can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality. -Ayn Rand
Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
- Appa23
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Re: Thoughts on a Killing
McDonalds was very popular when I was in private practice and served as a Guardian ad listen, particularly if the kids were younger.
I watched enough of Rittenhouse trial and call back on my criminal law experience to tell you that the jury finding self-defense here was correct. It was a good day for our criminal justice system. Just as it will be when there are convictions in the Arbery case.
- Beebs52
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Re: Thoughts on a Killing
RecAppa23 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:52 pmMcDonalds was very popular when I was in private practice and served as a Guardian ad listen, particularly if the kids were younger.
I watched enough of Rittenhouse trial and call back on my criminal law experience to tell you that the jury finding self-defense here was correct. It was a good day for our criminal justice system. Just as it will be when there are convictions in the Arbery case.
Well, then
- tlynn78
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Re: Thoughts on a Killing
YupBeebs52 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:25 pmRecAppa23 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:52 pmMcDonalds was very popular when I was in private practice and served as a Guardian ad listen, particularly if the kids were younger.
I watched enough of Rittenhouse trial and call back on my criminal law experience to tell you that the jury finding self-defense here was correct. It was a good day for our criminal justice system. Just as it will be when there are convictions in the Arbery case.
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. -Thomas Paine
You can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality. -Ayn Rand
Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
You can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality. -Ayn Rand
Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
- Bob Juch
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Re: Thoughts on a Killing
So was shooting Ashli Babbitt justified?
I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I needed to be.
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Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.
Teach a child to be polite and courteous in the home and, when he grows up, he'll never be able to drive in New Jersey.
- Douglas Adams (1952 - 2001)
Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.
Teach a child to be polite and courteous in the home and, when he grows up, he'll never be able to drive in New Jersey.
- kroxquo
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Re: Thoughts on a Killing
Absolutely. Different circumstance, though. That was a law enforcement official doing his job. And it really is not an analagous situation. If Babbitt had broken through the barricade, been jumped by the officer and then pulled a gun and shot him, that would be closer to what I'm talking about. But the fact that he was a law enforcement officer changes the entire dynamic.
Last edited by kroxquo on Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
You live and learn. Or at least you live. - Douglas Adams
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Re: Thoughts on a Killing
I must have missed a news cycle or two. Is there a recent (not 1930's) case where somebody was wearing a Klan robe and waving a Confederate flag in a predominantly African-American neighborhood and shooting people and claiming self-defense? Because I doubt that has happened in the last 50 years.kroxquo wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:07 amMy wife dispatches 9-1-1 and she had a call recently that left her very shaken. A woman called and said her boyfriend had been shot in the face and that the shooter was her ex-husband. The boyfriend was in the woman's car in the ex-husband's driveway. The woman's children (ex-husband was the father) were in the backseat of the car. There had been numerous domestic disturbance calls at this address in the past and ex-husband had made the statement that if ex-wife showed up with the boyfriend again, "there would be trouble." (quote from a police statement of one of the previous incidents). So when the couple showed up again, another altercation broke out and this time ex-husband pulled his gun and shot and killed boyfriend while his children watched in the back seat. He then went back into his house while ex-wife called 911 and remained there until police arrived and he was arrested.
My wife and i have been going back and forth over this. She feels that the victim in this case bears some responsibility for his death, as does the ex-wife. According to her, they had been warned not to come around and did anyway. While Karen (my wife) does not feel in any way that this excuses the murder, it should be a mitigating factor in the degree. I disagree with her. They were not trespassing on his property; they were there for a legitimate purpose - custody exchange. To me, the previous circumstances do not mitigate what appears to me to be premeditation.
This came back to my mind in reading the discussion on the Rittenhouse verdict. I don't think Kyle Rittenhouse had any business being in Kenosha that evening and that he wanted to play soldier and that he was looking for trouble. But does that mean he cannot defend himself if he finds it? I will admit I only followed the trial in the most cursory way and have not seen any of the video, so I really cannot comment on whether what he did was self-defense or not. But my point is that if he truly felt his life was in danger, does he have the right to defend himself, even if he put himself in harm's way to begin with?
To put it another way, if I go to primarily African-American East Kinston (the town near where I live) and put on a Klan robe and walk down the street waving a Confederate flag, I would almost certainly accosted, assaulted and possibly have my life in danger. Would I be allowed to then say it is self-defense on my part to pull a gun and shoot at my attackers?
I am troubled by these types of questions.
Kind of sounds like "Whataboutism" to me? LOL-If you have followed me here-you know that I hate when people cry "Whataboutism" but for some reason the Left (mainly) here thinks it is a valid argument and learning from them this is a classic case.
Last edited by Spock on Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
- kroxquo
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Re: Thoughts on a Killing
I was using it as a hypothetical.Spock wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:37 amI must have missed a news cycle or two. Is there a recent (not 1930's) case where somebody was wearing a Klan robe and waving a Confederate flag in a predominantly African-American neighborhood and shooting people and claiming self-defense? Because I doubt that has happened in the last 50 years.kroxquo wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:07 amMy wife dispatches 9-1-1 and she had a call recently that left her very shaken. A woman called and said her boyfriend had been shot in the face and that the shooter was her ex-husband. The boyfriend was in the woman's car in the ex-husband's driveway. The woman's children (ex-husband was the father) were in the backseat of the car. There had been numerous domestic disturbance calls at this address in the past and ex-husband had made the statement that if ex-wife showed up with the boyfriend again, "there would be trouble." (quote from a police statement of one of the previous incidents). So when the couple showed up again, another altercation broke out and this time ex-husband pulled his gun and shot and killed boyfriend while his children watched in the back seat. He then went back into his house while ex-wife called 911 and remained there until police arrived and he was arrested.
My wife and i have been going back and forth over this. She feels that the victim in this case bears some responsibility for his death, as does the ex-wife. According to her, they had been warned not to come around and did anyway. While Karen (my wife) does not feel in any way that this excuses the murder, it should be a mitigating factor in the degree. I disagree with her. They were not trespassing on his property; they were there for a legitimate purpose - custody exchange. To me, the previous circumstances do not mitigate what appears to me to be premeditation.
This came back to my mind in reading the discussion on the Rittenhouse verdict. I don't think Kyle Rittenhouse had any business being in Kenosha that evening and that he wanted to play soldier and that he was looking for trouble. But does that mean he cannot defend himself if he finds it? I will admit I only followed the trial in the most cursory way and have not seen any of the video, so I really cannot comment on whether what he did was self-defense or not. But my point is that if he truly felt his life was in danger, does he have the right to defend himself, even if he put himself in harm's way to begin with?
To put it another way, if I go to primarily African-American East Kinston (the town near where I live) and put on a Klan robe and walk down the street waving a Confederate flag, I would almost certainly accosted, assaulted and possibly have my life in danger. Would I be allowed to then say it is self-defense on my part to pull a gun and shoot at my attackers?
I am troubled by these types of questions.
You live and learn. Or at least you live. - Douglas Adams
- kroxquo
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Re: Thoughts on a Killing
My ignorance is on display. What does "Rec" mean?Beebs52 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:25 pmRecAppa23 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:52 pmMcDonalds was very popular when I was in private practice and served as a Guardian ad listen, particularly if the kids were younger.
I watched enough of Rittenhouse trial and call back on my criminal law experience to tell you that the jury finding self-defense here was correct. It was a good day for our criminal justice system. Just as it will be when there are convictions in the Arbery case.
You live and learn. Or at least you live. - Douglas Adams
- silverscreenselect
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Re: Thoughts on a Killing
Not quite on topic, but I mentioned that my brother-in-law owns a bed-and-breakfast on Lake Allatoona (where Ozark is filmed). The building dates from Civil War times (one of their neighbors' houses was used as a field hospital during the war). They were approached recently by the producers of a Korean reality TV series to film there and agreed to do so, after being assured that the episode would not air in the United States. The show is about haunted houses, and the premise for their episode was that their B&B was haunted from the Civil War era. In order to make the series appear more "realistic," the producers wanted to dress up some extras as "ghosts" from that era. The extras would include a woman dressed like Scarlett O'Hara, and a man wearing a Ku Klux Klan robe and hood. Needless to say, my brother-in-law did not think that was a good idea and stopped them from doing that. The shoot proceeded without the "ghosts."Spock wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:37 amI must have missed a news cycle or two. Is there a recent (not 1930's) case where somebody was wearing a Klan robe and waving a Confederate flag in a predominantly African-American neighborhood and shooting people and claiming self-defense? Because I doubt that has happened in the last 50 years.
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- Estonut
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Re: Thoughts on a Killing
They'll CGI whatever they want.silverscreenselect wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:57 amNot quite on topic, but I mentioned that my brother-in-law owns a bed-and-breakfast on Lake Allatoona (where Ozark is filmed). The building dates from Civil War times (one of their neighbors' houses was used as a field hospital during the war). They were approached recently by the producers of a Korean reality TV series to film there and agreed to do so, after being assured that the episode would not air in the United States. The show is about haunted houses, and the premise for their episode was that their B&B was haunted from the Civil War era. In order to make the series appear more "realistic," the producers wanted to dress up some extras as "ghosts" from that era. The extras would include a woman dressed like Scarlett O'Hara, and a man wearing a Ku Klux Klan robe and hood. Needless to say, my brother-in-law did not think that was a good idea and stopped them from doing that. The shoot proceeded without the "ghosts."Spock wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:37 amI must have missed a news cycle or two. Is there a recent (not 1930's) case where somebody was wearing a Klan robe and waving a Confederate flag in a predominantly African-American neighborhood and shooting people and claiming self-defense? Because I doubt that has happened in the last 50 years.
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- Beebs52
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Re: Thoughts on a Killing
Recommendkroxquo wrote: ↑Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:53 amMy ignorance is on display. What does "Rec" mean?Beebs52 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:25 pmRecAppa23 wrote: ↑Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:52 pm
McDonalds was very popular when I was in private practice and served as a Guardian ad listen, particularly if the kids were younger.
I watched enough of Rittenhouse trial and call back on my criminal law experience to tell you that the jury finding self-defense here was correct. It was a good day for our criminal justice system. Just as it will be when there are convictions in the Arbery case.
Well, then
- tlynn78
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Re: Thoughts on a Killing
Did we ever have an actual "rec" (recommend) button bitd, or did I dream that?
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. -Thomas Paine
You can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality. -Ayn Rand
Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
You can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality. -Ayn Rand
Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities. -Voltaire
- Bob78164
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Re: Thoughts on a Killing
Some of our previous homes had it. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson
- BackInTex
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Re: Thoughts on a Killing
Yes, there was a "recommend" button and it would tally up the number of folks who recommended a post. The website would like each user to a single rec on a post, but that could be overridden by clearing cache or using a different window, or something, I can't really recall, but I built a "rec machine" that would put 100 recs or so on a single post. I forgot how I did that, though.
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
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~~ Thomas Jefferson