Thoughts on a Killing

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kroxquo
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Thoughts on a Killing

#1 Post by kroxquo » Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:07 am

My wife dispatches 9-1-1 and she had a call recently that left her very shaken. A woman called and said her boyfriend had been shot in the face and that the shooter was her ex-husband. The boyfriend was in the woman's car in the ex-husband's driveway. The woman's children (ex-husband was the father) were in the backseat of the car. There had been numerous domestic disturbance calls at this address in the past and ex-husband had made the statement that if ex-wife showed up with the boyfriend again, "there would be trouble." (quote from a police statement of one of the previous incidents). So when the couple showed up again, another altercation broke out and this time ex-husband pulled his gun and shot and killed boyfriend while his children watched in the back seat. He then went back into his house while ex-wife called 911 and remained there until police arrived and he was arrested.

My wife and i have been going back and forth over this. She feels that the victim in this case bears some responsibility for his death, as does the ex-wife. According to her, they had been warned not to come around and did anyway. While Karen (my wife) does not feel in any way that this excuses the murder, it should be a mitigating factor in the degree. I disagree with her. They were not trespassing on his property; they were there for a legitimate purpose - custody exchange. To me, the previous circumstances do not mitigate what appears to me to be premeditation.

This came back to my mind in reading the discussion on the Rittenhouse verdict. I don't think Kyle Rittenhouse had any business being in Kenosha that evening and that he wanted to play soldier and that he was looking for trouble. But does that mean he cannot defend himself if he finds it? I will admit I only followed the trial in the most cursory way and have not seen any of the video, so I really cannot comment on whether what he did was self-defense or not. But my point is that if he truly felt his life was in danger, does he have the right to defend himself, even if he put himself in harm's way to begin with?

To put it another way, if I go to primarily African-American East Kinston (the town near where I live) and put on a Klan robe and walk down the street waving a Confederate flag, I would almost certainly accosted, assaulted and possibly have my life in danger. Would I be allowed to then say it is self-defense on my part to pull a gun and shoot at my attackers?

I am troubled by these types of questions.
You live and learn. Or at least you live. - Douglas Adams

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tlynn78
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Re: Thoughts on a Killing

#2 Post by tlynn78 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:43 am

In our court, when custody exchange issues rise to this level, the courts generally order the exchanges take place in a public, neutral place, such as the Sheriff's office parking lot. Of course, where there's a will...
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. -Thomas Paine

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Re: Thoughts on a Killing

#3 Post by Appa23 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:52 pm

tlynn78 wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:43 am
In our court, when custody exchange issues rise to this level, the courts generally order the exchanges take place in a public, neutral place, such as the Sheriff's office parking lot. Of course, where there's a will...
McDonalds was very popular when I was in private practice and served as a Guardian ad listen, particularly if the kids were younger.

I watched enough of Rittenhouse trial and call back on my criminal law experience to tell you that the jury finding self-defense here was correct. It was a good day for our criminal justice system. Just as it will be when there are convictions in the Arbery case.

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Re: Thoughts on a Killing

#4 Post by Beebs52 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:25 pm

Appa23 wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:52 pm
tlynn78 wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:43 am
In our court, when custody exchange issues rise to this level, the courts generally order the exchanges take place in a public, neutral place, such as the Sheriff's office parking lot. Of course, where there's a will...
McDonalds was very popular when I was in private practice and served as a Guardian ad listen, particularly if the kids were younger.

I watched enough of Rittenhouse trial and call back on my criminal law experience to tell you that the jury finding self-defense here was correct. It was a good day for our criminal justice system. Just as it will be when there are convictions in the Arbery case.
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Re: Thoughts on a Killing

#5 Post by tlynn78 » Sun Nov 21, 2021 5:34 pm

Beebs52 wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:25 pm
Appa23 wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:52 pm
tlynn78 wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:43 am
In our court, when custody exchange issues rise to this level, the courts generally order the exchanges take place in a public, neutral place, such as the Sheriff's office parking lot. Of course, where there's a will...
McDonalds was very popular when I was in private practice and served as a Guardian ad listen, particularly if the kids were younger.

I watched enough of Rittenhouse trial and call back on my criminal law experience to tell you that the jury finding self-defense here was correct. It was a good day for our criminal justice system. Just as it will be when there are convictions in the Arbery case.
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Re: Thoughts on a Killing

#6 Post by Bob Juch » Sun Nov 21, 2021 9:42 pm

So was shooting Ashli Babbitt justified?
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Re: Thoughts on a Killing

#7 Post by kroxquo » Mon Nov 22, 2021 5:01 am

Absolutely. Different circumstance, though. That was a law enforcement official doing his job. And it really is not an analagous situation. If Babbitt had broken through the barricade, been jumped by the officer and then pulled a gun and shot him, that would be closer to what I'm talking about. But the fact that he was a law enforcement officer changes the entire dynamic.
Last edited by kroxquo on Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thoughts on a Killing

#8 Post by Spock » Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:37 am

kroxquo wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:07 am
My wife dispatches 9-1-1 and she had a call recently that left her very shaken. A woman called and said her boyfriend had been shot in the face and that the shooter was her ex-husband. The boyfriend was in the woman's car in the ex-husband's driveway. The woman's children (ex-husband was the father) were in the backseat of the car. There had been numerous domestic disturbance calls at this address in the past and ex-husband had made the statement that if ex-wife showed up with the boyfriend again, "there would be trouble." (quote from a police statement of one of the previous incidents). So when the couple showed up again, another altercation broke out and this time ex-husband pulled his gun and shot and killed boyfriend while his children watched in the back seat. He then went back into his house while ex-wife called 911 and remained there until police arrived and he was arrested.

My wife and i have been going back and forth over this. She feels that the victim in this case bears some responsibility for his death, as does the ex-wife. According to her, they had been warned not to come around and did anyway. While Karen (my wife) does not feel in any way that this excuses the murder, it should be a mitigating factor in the degree. I disagree with her. They were not trespassing on his property; they were there for a legitimate purpose - custody exchange. To me, the previous circumstances do not mitigate what appears to me to be premeditation.

This came back to my mind in reading the discussion on the Rittenhouse verdict. I don't think Kyle Rittenhouse had any business being in Kenosha that evening and that he wanted to play soldier and that he was looking for trouble. But does that mean he cannot defend himself if he finds it? I will admit I only followed the trial in the most cursory way and have not seen any of the video, so I really cannot comment on whether what he did was self-defense or not. But my point is that if he truly felt his life was in danger, does he have the right to defend himself, even if he put himself in harm's way to begin with?

To put it another way, if I go to primarily African-American East Kinston (the town near where I live) and put on a Klan robe and walk down the street waving a Confederate flag, I would almost certainly accosted, assaulted and possibly have my life in danger. Would I be allowed to then say it is self-defense on my part to pull a gun and shoot at my attackers?

I am troubled by these types of questions.
I must have missed a news cycle or two. Is there a recent (not 1930's) case where somebody was wearing a Klan robe and waving a Confederate flag in a predominantly African-American neighborhood and shooting people and claiming self-defense? Because I doubt that has happened in the last 50 years.

Kind of sounds like "Whataboutism" to me? LOL-If you have followed me here-you know that I hate when people cry "Whataboutism" but for some reason the Left (mainly) here thinks it is a valid argument and learning from them this is a classic case.
Last edited by Spock on Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:42 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Thoughts on a Killing

#9 Post by kroxquo » Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:42 am

Spock wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:37 am
kroxquo wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 10:07 am
My wife dispatches 9-1-1 and she had a call recently that left her very shaken. A woman called and said her boyfriend had been shot in the face and that the shooter was her ex-husband. The boyfriend was in the woman's car in the ex-husband's driveway. The woman's children (ex-husband was the father) were in the backseat of the car. There had been numerous domestic disturbance calls at this address in the past and ex-husband had made the statement that if ex-wife showed up with the boyfriend again, "there would be trouble." (quote from a police statement of one of the previous incidents). So when the couple showed up again, another altercation broke out and this time ex-husband pulled his gun and shot and killed boyfriend while his children watched in the back seat. He then went back into his house while ex-wife called 911 and remained there until police arrived and he was arrested.

My wife and i have been going back and forth over this. She feels that the victim in this case bears some responsibility for his death, as does the ex-wife. According to her, they had been warned not to come around and did anyway. While Karen (my wife) does not feel in any way that this excuses the murder, it should be a mitigating factor in the degree. I disagree with her. They were not trespassing on his property; they were there for a legitimate purpose - custody exchange. To me, the previous circumstances do not mitigate what appears to me to be premeditation.

This came back to my mind in reading the discussion on the Rittenhouse verdict. I don't think Kyle Rittenhouse had any business being in Kenosha that evening and that he wanted to play soldier and that he was looking for trouble. But does that mean he cannot defend himself if he finds it? I will admit I only followed the trial in the most cursory way and have not seen any of the video, so I really cannot comment on whether what he did was self-defense or not. But my point is that if he truly felt his life was in danger, does he have the right to defend himself, even if he put himself in harm's way to begin with?

To put it another way, if I go to primarily African-American East Kinston (the town near where I live) and put on a Klan robe and walk down the street waving a Confederate flag, I would almost certainly accosted, assaulted and possibly have my life in danger. Would I be allowed to then say it is self-defense on my part to pull a gun and shoot at my attackers?

I am troubled by these types of questions.
I must have missed a news cycle or two. Is there a recent (not 1930's) case where somebody was wearing a Klan robe and waving a Confederate flag in a predominantly African-American neighborhood and shooting people and claiming self-defense? Because I doubt that has happened in the last 50 years.
I was using it as a hypothetical.
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Re: Thoughts on a Killing

#10 Post by kroxquo » Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:53 am

Beebs52 wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:25 pm
Appa23 wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:52 pm
tlynn78 wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 11:43 am
In our court, when custody exchange issues rise to this level, the courts generally order the exchanges take place in a public, neutral place, such as the Sheriff's office parking lot. Of course, where there's a will...
McDonalds was very popular when I was in private practice and served as a Guardian ad listen, particularly if the kids were younger.

I watched enough of Rittenhouse trial and call back on my criminal law experience to tell you that the jury finding self-defense here was correct. It was a good day for our criminal justice system. Just as it will be when there are convictions in the Arbery case.
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Re: Thoughts on a Killing

#11 Post by silverscreenselect » Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:57 am

Spock wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:37 am
I must have missed a news cycle or two. Is there a recent (not 1930's) case where somebody was wearing a Klan robe and waving a Confederate flag in a predominantly African-American neighborhood and shooting people and claiming self-defense? Because I doubt that has happened in the last 50 years.
Not quite on topic, but I mentioned that my brother-in-law owns a bed-and-breakfast on Lake Allatoona (where Ozark is filmed). The building dates from Civil War times (one of their neighbors' houses was used as a field hospital during the war). They were approached recently by the producers of a Korean reality TV series to film there and agreed to do so, after being assured that the episode would not air in the United States. The show is about haunted houses, and the premise for their episode was that their B&B was haunted from the Civil War era. In order to make the series appear more "realistic," the producers wanted to dress up some extras as "ghosts" from that era. The extras would include a woman dressed like Scarlett O'Hara, and a man wearing a Ku Klux Klan robe and hood. Needless to say, my brother-in-law did not think that was a good idea and stopped them from doing that. The shoot proceeded without the "ghosts."
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Re: Thoughts on a Killing

#12 Post by Estonut » Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:44 am

silverscreenselect wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 8:57 am
Spock wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:37 am
I must have missed a news cycle or two. Is there a recent (not 1930's) case where somebody was wearing a Klan robe and waving a Confederate flag in a predominantly African-American neighborhood and shooting people and claiming self-defense? Because I doubt that has happened in the last 50 years.
Not quite on topic, but I mentioned that my brother-in-law owns a bed-and-breakfast on Lake Allatoona (where Ozark is filmed). The building dates from Civil War times (one of their neighbors' houses was used as a field hospital during the war). They were approached recently by the producers of a Korean reality TV series to film there and agreed to do so, after being assured that the episode would not air in the United States. The show is about haunted houses, and the premise for their episode was that their B&B was haunted from the Civil War era. In order to make the series appear more "realistic," the producers wanted to dress up some extras as "ghosts" from that era. The extras would include a woman dressed like Scarlett O'Hara, and a man wearing a Ku Klux Klan robe and hood. Needless to say, my brother-in-law did not think that was a good idea and stopped them from doing that. The shoot proceeded without the "ghosts."
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Re: Thoughts on a Killing

#13 Post by Beebs52 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:47 am

kroxquo wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:53 am
Beebs52 wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:25 pm
Appa23 wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 3:52 pm


McDonalds was very popular when I was in private practice and served as a Guardian ad listen, particularly if the kids were younger.

I watched enough of Rittenhouse trial and call back on my criminal law experience to tell you that the jury finding self-defense here was correct. It was a good day for our criminal justice system. Just as it will be when there are convictions in the Arbery case.
Rec
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Re: Thoughts on a Killing

#14 Post by tlynn78 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:15 am

Beebs52 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:47 am
kroxquo wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:53 am
Beebs52 wrote:
Sun Nov 21, 2021 4:25 pm


Rec
My ignorance is on display. What does "Rec" mean?
Recommend
Did we ever have an actual "rec" (recommend) button bitd, or did I dream that?
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. -Thomas Paine

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Re: Thoughts on a Killing

#15 Post by Bob78164 » Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:22 am

tlynn78 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:15 am
Beebs52 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:47 am
kroxquo wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 7:53 am
My ignorance is on display. What does "Rec" mean?
Recommend
Did we ever have an actual "rec" (recommend) button bitd, or did I dream that?
Some of our previous homes had it. --Bob
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Re: Thoughts on a Killing

#16 Post by BackInTex » Mon Nov 22, 2021 11:16 am

Bob78164 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:22 am
tlynn78 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 10:15 am
Beebs52 wrote:
Mon Nov 22, 2021 9:47 am
Recommend
Did we ever have an actual "rec" (recommend) button bitd, or did I dream that?
Some of our previous homes had it. --Bob
Yes, there was a "recommend" button and it would tally up the number of folks who recommended a post. The website would like each user to a single rec on a post, but that could be overridden by clearing cache or using a different window, or something, I can't really recall, but I built a "rec machine" that would put 100 recs or so on a single post. I forgot how I did that, though.
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