Gov. Abbott has COVID-19

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silverscreenselect
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Re: Gov. Abbott has COVID-19

#26 Post by silverscreenselect » Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:34 am

BackInTex wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:50 am
Also, where does one's right to be fat and unhealthy end (when it limits my right to go on about my life even if it puts them at risk because of their poor health)?
I'm not sure how my choosing to be fat and unhealthy affects anyone else (except presumably those few people financially or otherwise dependant upon me). My "choosing" not to get the COVID vaccine puts everyone I come in contact with at greater risk.

You're also overlooking the difference between normal times and a public health crisis in which hospitals are overwhelmed. It's akin to watering restrictions during a drought. Normally you can water your lawn as much as you want as long as you're willing to pay for it, but during drought emergencies, there are strict limits to conserve the water for more vital purposes.
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Re: Gov. Abbott has COVID-19

#27 Post by Bob78164 » Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:45 am

tlynn78 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:34 am
earendel wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:17 am
tlynn78 wrote:
Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:53 pm
"...saying that the people had the right to choose whether to get the shot or not."

So, stating a fact is "waffling"? I mean, so far, people do have the right to choose.
Do they? Does their "right to choose" include the right to infect others, possibly ending up in hospitalization or death? I've always heard that "the right to swing my fist ends at the point of someone else's nose". So choosing not to be vaccinated may be OK for the individual, but not if it impinges on the rights of others to not become sick.
None of that changes the fact that currently, the vaccine is a choice and not a mandate.
So is going barefoot. Do you think you should have the right to walk into a restaurant barefoot? --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Gov. Abbott has COVID-19

#28 Post by earendel » Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:17 pm

BackInTex wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:50 am
earendel wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:17 am
tlynn78 wrote:
Mon Aug 23, 2021 4:53 pm



"...saying that the people had the right to choose whether to get the shot or not."

So, stating a fact is "waffling"? I mean, so far, people do have the right to choose.
Do they? Does their "right to choose" include the right to infect others, possibly ending up in hospitalization or death? I've always heard that "the right to swing my fist ends at the point of someone else's nose". So choosing not to be vaccinated may be OK for the individual, but not if it impinges on the rights of others to not become sick.
Do you feel that way about the flu vaccine? Did you two years ago?

Also, where does one's right to be fat and unhealthy end (when it limits my right to go on about my life even if it puts them at risk because of their poor health)?

If we're going to mandate vaccinations we should mandate exercise and diet restrictions when someone's BMI exceeds certain thresholds as they will then consume more than their share of medical resources. Cigarettes should be banned or at least those who smoke go to the back of the line at hospitals (as suggested by some legal "scholars" here for the unvaccinated).
The same arguments could be made for seatbelt requirements, drinking while driving, and, yes, the abortion debate as well. I could attempt to refute each of the points you made, but it wouldn't do any good. It all boils down to personal freedom vs. personal responsibility. I happen to be on the side of responsibility.
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Re: Gov. Abbott has COVID-19

#29 Post by earendel » Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:19 pm

silverscreenselect wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:34 am
BackInTex wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:50 am
Also, where does one's right to be fat and unhealthy end (when it limits my right to go on about my life even if it puts them at risk because of their poor health)?
I'm not sure how my choosing to be fat and unhealthy affects anyone else (except presumably those few people financially or otherwise dependant upon me). My "choosing" not to get the COVID vaccine puts everyone I come in contact with at greater risk.
In fairness to BiT's argument, being "fat and unhealthy" does affect others in the fact that it increases overall health costs, which affects others' income.
"Elen sila lumenn omentielvo...A star shines on the hour of our meeting."

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Re: Gov. Abbott has COVID-19

#30 Post by BackInTex » Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:28 pm

earendel wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:17 pm
BackInTex wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:50 am
earendel wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:17 am

Do they? Does their "right to choose" include the right to infect others, possibly ending up in hospitalization or death? I've always heard that "the right to swing my fist ends at the point of someone else's nose". So choosing not to be vaccinated may be OK for the individual, but not if it impinges on the rights of others to not become sick.
Do you feel that way about the flu vaccine? Did you two years ago?

Also, where does one's right to be fat and unhealthy end (when it limits my right to go on about my life even if it puts them at risk because of their poor health)?

If we're going to mandate vaccinations we should mandate exercise and diet restrictions when someone's BMI exceeds certain thresholds as they will then consume more than their share of medical resources. Cigarettes should be banned or at least those who smoke go to the back of the line at hospitals (as suggested by some legal "scholars" here for the unvaccinated).
The same arguments could be made for seatbelt requirements, drinking while driving, and, yes, the abortion debate as well. I could attempt to refute each of the points you made, but it wouldn't do any good. It all boils down to personal freedom vs. personal responsibility. I happen to be on the side of responsibility.
I choose both.
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
~~ Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Gov. Abbott has COVID-19

#31 Post by earendel » Tue Aug 24, 2021 2:29 pm

BackInTex wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:28 pm
earendel wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:17 pm
BackInTex wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:50 am


Do you feel that way about the flu vaccine? Did you two years ago?

Also, where does one's right to be fat and unhealthy end (when it limits my right to go on about my life even if it puts them at risk because of their poor health)?

If we're going to mandate vaccinations we should mandate exercise and diet restrictions when someone's BMI exceeds certain thresholds as they will then consume more than their share of medical resources. Cigarettes should be banned or at least those who smoke go to the back of the line at hospitals (as suggested by some legal "scholars" here for the unvaccinated).
The same arguments could be made for seatbelt requirements, drinking while driving, and, yes, the abortion debate as well. I could attempt to refute each of the points you made, but it wouldn't do any good. It all boils down to personal freedom vs. personal responsibility. I happen to be on the side of responsibility.
I choose both.
That's great, but it's a sliding scale - the more "personal freedom" the less "personal responsibility".
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Re: Gov. Abbott has COVID-19

#32 Post by Beebs52 » Tue Aug 24, 2021 2:40 pm

earendel wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 2:29 pm
BackInTex wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:28 pm
earendel wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:17 pm

The same arguments could be made for seatbelt requirements, drinking while driving, and, yes, the abortion debate as well. I could attempt to refute each of the points you made, but it wouldn't do any good. It all boils down to personal freedom vs. personal responsibility. I happen to be on the side of responsibility.
I choose both.
That's great, but it's a sliding scale - the more "personal freedom" the less "personal responsibility".
Not true. You assume most freer people are less responsible as if it's simply mathematically driven. Not taking into account youth, mental illness, sociopathy, diminished intelligence, etc, or morphing societal norms, most "freeish" people aren't out to actively sabotage others.
Well, then

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Re: Gov. Abbott has COVID-19

#33 Post by tlynn78 » Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:19 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:45 am
tlynn78 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:34 am
earendel wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 6:17 am
Do they? Does their "right to choose" include the right to infect others, possibly ending up in hospitalization or death? I've always heard that "the right to swing my fist ends at the point of someone else's nose". So choosing not to be vaccinated may be OK for the individual, but not if it impinges on the rights of others to not become sick.
None of that changes the fact that currently, the vaccine is a choice and not a mandate.
So is going barefoot. Do you think you should have the right to walk into a restaurant barefoot? --Bob
What the actual hell does walking barefoot into a restaurant have to do with Ear's claim that President Trump was 'waffling' when he said the vaccine was a choice?
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. -Thomas Paine

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Re: Gov. Abbott has COVID-19

#34 Post by Bob78164 » Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:23 pm

tlynn78 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:19 pm
Bob78164 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:45 am
tlynn78 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:34 am
None of that changes the fact that currently, the vaccine is a choice and not a mandate.
So is going barefoot. Do you think you should have the right to walk into a restaurant barefoot? --Bob
What the actual hell does walking barefoot into a restaurant have to do with Ear's claim that President Trump was 'waffling' when he said the vaccine was a choice?
Do you have a "choice" to walk into a restaurant barefoot and get served? Seems like a simple question. Really not sure why you're having trouble answering it. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Gov. Abbott has COVID-19

#35 Post by Beebs52 » Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:30 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:23 pm
tlynn78 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:19 pm
Bob78164 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:45 am
So is going barefoot. Do you think you should have the right to walk into a restaurant barefoot? --Bob
What the actual hell does walking barefoot into a restaurant have to do with Ear's claim that President Trump was 'waffling' when he said the vaccine was a choice?
Do you have a "choice" to walk into a restaurant barefoot and get served? Seems like a simple question. Really not sure why you're having trouble answering it. --Bob
What you fail to realize is that people don't have a problem not patronizing concerns that may have restrictions like that, mask, shoes,etc. One just doesn't go. One(s) don't also misuse public resources to enforce those restrictions, unless you're drunk on your ass...
Well, then

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Re: Gov. Abbott has COVID-19

#36 Post by tlynn78 » Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:59 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:23 pm
tlynn78 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:19 pm
Bob78164 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 11:45 am
So is going barefoot. Do you think you should have the right to walk into a restaurant barefoot? --Bob
What the actual hell does walking barefoot into a restaurant have to do with Ear's claim that President Trump was 'waffling' when he said the vaccine was a choice?
Do you have a "choice" to walk into a restaurant barefoot and get served? Seems like a simple question. Really not sure why you're having trouble answering it. --Bob
I'll type more slowly so maybe you'll have a chance: Right now (and when President Trump made the statement) getting the vaccine is still a matter of choice. Period. Full stop. As to your rather pointless query, yes, one does have a the choice to walk into an establishment and 'try' to get get served. Results may vary.
To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. -Thomas Paine

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Re: Gov. Abbott has COVID-19

#37 Post by Bob78164 » Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:04 pm

Beebs52 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:30 pm
Bob78164 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:23 pm
tlynn78 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:19 pm
What the actual hell does walking barefoot into a restaurant have to do with Ear's claim that President Trump was 'waffling' when he said the vaccine was a choice?
Do you have a "choice" to walk into a restaurant barefoot and get served? Seems like a simple question. Really not sure why you're having trouble answering it. --Bob
What you fail to realize is that people don't have a problem not patronizing concerns that may have restrictions like that, mask, shoes,etc. One just doesn't go. One(s) don't also misuse public resources to enforce those restrictions, unless you're drunk on your ass...
What you appear to fail to realize is that the specific restriction I'm talking about is enforced by health codes throughout most of the country. And in states like Florida, businesses don't even have the option of keeping out the unvaccinated or the unmasked -- the Legislature took that option away from business owners. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Gov. Abbott has COVID-19

#38 Post by BackInTex » Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:20 pm

earendel wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 2:29 pm
BackInTex wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:28 pm
earendel wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 12:17 pm

The same arguments could be made for seatbelt requirements, drinking while driving, and, yes, the abortion debate as well. I could attempt to refute each of the points you made, but it wouldn't do any good. It all boils down to personal freedom vs. personal responsibility. I happen to be on the side of responsibility.
I choose both.
That's great, but it's a sliding scale - the more "personal freedom" the less "personal responsibility".
Wow. No one has the freedom to be personally responsible? And prison inmates are the most personally responsible people?

I can be more free and at the same time be more personally responsible than others. The two are not mutually exclusive, and in fact, for thinking beings, completely separate attributes.
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
~~ Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Gov. Abbott has COVID-19

#39 Post by BackInTex » Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:26 pm

I'll simplify it.

Trump: I recommend getting vaccinated.
Trump: It is not required, you don't have to do it.

That is not waffling. It is 1) making a recommendation 2) ensuring folks understand it is not a mandate, just a recommendation.

I know some here have trouble actually processing correctly anything Trump says. Glad to help.
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
~~ Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Gov. Abbott has COVID-19

#40 Post by Beebs52 » Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:40 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:04 pm
Beebs52 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:30 pm
Bob78164 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:23 pm
Do you have a "choice" to walk into a restaurant barefoot and get served? Seems like a simple question. Really not sure why you're having trouble answering it. --Bob
What you fail to realize is that people don't have a problem not patronizing concerns that may have restrictions like that, mask, shoes,etc. One just doesn't go. One(s) don't also misuse public resources to enforce those restrictions, unless you're drunk on your ass...
What you appear to fail to realize is that the specific restriction I'm talking about is enforced by health codes throughout most of the country. And in states like Florida, businesses don't even have the option of keeping out the unvaccinated or the unmasked -- the Legislature took that option away from business owners. --Bob
Businesses can refuse service for whatever reason other than constitutional. Sort of like trendy bars not letting in nerds.
Well, then

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Re: Gov. Abbott has COVID-19

#41 Post by tlynn78 » Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:46 pm

BackInTex wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:26 pm
I'll simplify it.

Trump: I recommend getting vaccinated.
Trump: It is not required, you don't have to do it.

That is not waffling. It is 1) making a recommendation 2) ensuring folks understand it is not a mandate, just a recommendation.

I know some here have trouble actually processing correctly anything Trump says. Glad to help.

LOL - I'd love to think that helped, but somehow, I'm guessing not.
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Re: Gov. Abbott has COVID-19

#42 Post by Bob78164 » Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:50 pm

Beebs52 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:40 pm
Bob78164 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:04 pm
Beebs52 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 3:30 pm
What you fail to realize is that people don't have a problem not patronizing concerns that may have restrictions like that, mask, shoes,etc. One just doesn't go. One(s) don't also misuse public resources to enforce those restrictions, unless you're drunk on your ass...
What you appear to fail to realize is that the specific restriction I'm talking about is enforced by health codes throughout most of the country. And in states like Florida, businesses don't even have the option of keeping out the unvaccinated or the unmasked -- the Legislature took that option away from business owners. --Bob
Businesses can refuse service for whatever reason other than constitutional. Sort of like trendy bars not letting in nerds.
Not in Florida, or in Texas. The Legislature took that right away from them, and the Governor signed the laws.

As a direct result, I'm more than a little skeptical that ACBL will move forward with the Fall Nationals currently scheduled for Austin. I think it'll become the sixth consecutive national tournament to be cancelled. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Gov. Abbott has COVID-19

#43 Post by Beebs52 » Tue Aug 24, 2021 5:39 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:50 pm
Beebs52 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:40 pm
Bob78164 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:04 pm
What you appear to fail to realize is that the specific restriction I'm talking about is enforced by health codes throughout most of the country. And in states like Florida, businesses don't even have the option of keeping out the unvaccinated or the unmasked -- the Legislature took that option away from business owners. --Bob
Businesses can refuse service for whatever reason other than constitutional. Sort of like trendy bars not letting in nerds.
Not in Florida, or in Texas. The Legislature took that right away from them, and the Governor signed the laws.

As a direct result, I'm more than a little skeptical that ACBL will move forward with the Fall Nationals currently scheduled for Austin. I think it'll become the sixth consecutive national tournament to be cancelled. --Bob
Pretty sure they'd ban someone for being an asshole.
Well, then

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Re: Gov. Abbott has COVID-19

#44 Post by BackInTex » Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:46 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:50 pm
Beebs52 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:40 pm
Bob78164 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:04 pm
What you appear to fail to realize is that the specific restriction I'm talking about is enforced by health codes throughout most of the country. And in states like Florida, businesses don't even have the option of keeping out the unvaccinated or the unmasked -- the Legislature took that option away from business owners. --Bob
Businesses can refuse service for whatever reason other than constitutional. Sort of like trendy bars not letting in nerds.
Not in Florida, or in Texas. The Legislature took that right away from them, and the Governor signed the laws.

As a direct result, I'm more than a little skeptical that ACBL will move forward with the Fall Nationals currently scheduled for Austin. I think it'll become the sixth consecutive national tournament to be cancelled. --Bob
I
Can you cite a reference for Texas? I don’t know about Florida but Abbott’s ban on mandates only extends to governmental entities. Private entities can require customers and employees to wear masks.
..what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms.
~~ Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Gov. Abbott has COVID-19

#45 Post by Bob Juch » Tue Aug 24, 2021 10:24 pm

Image
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Si fractum non sit, noli id reficere.

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Re: Gov. Abbott has COVID-19

#46 Post by Bob78164 » Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:21 am

BackInTex wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:46 pm
Bob78164 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:50 pm
Beebs52 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:40 pm
Businesses can refuse service for whatever reason other than constitutional. Sort of like trendy bars not letting in nerds.
Not in Florida, or in Texas. The Legislature took that right away from them, and the Governor signed the laws.

As a direct result, I'm more than a little skeptical that ACBL will move forward with the Fall Nationals currently scheduled for Austin. I think it'll become the sixth consecutive national tournament to be cancelled. --Bob
Can you cite a reference for Texas? I don’t know about Florida but Abbott’s ban on mandates only extends to governmental entities. Private entities can require customers and employees to wear masks.
Texas has banned businesses from requiring proof of vaccination. So has Florida. --Bob
"Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson

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Re: Gov. Abbott has COVID-19

#47 Post by earendel » Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:15 am

BackInTex wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:20 pm
earendel wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 2:29 pm
BackInTex wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 1:28 pm


I choose both.
That's great, but it's a sliding scale - the more "personal freedom" the less "personal responsibility".
Wow. No one has the freedom to be personally responsible? And prison inmates are the most personally responsible people?

I can be more free and at the same time be more personally responsible than others. The two are not mutually exclusive, and in fact, for thinking beings, completely separate attributes.
They aren't mutually exclusive, but they do have a relationship. To use a trite example, I'm free to drink and drive - that's personal freedom. But that freedom doesn't include the right to endanger others by the exercise of my freedom. It's a balancing act. For the rabidly unvaccinated, the balance is on their rights.

Just out of curiosity, do you object to schools requiring vaccinations for the "typical childhood diseases"?
"Elen sila lumenn omentielvo...A star shines on the hour of our meeting."

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Re: Gov. Abbott has COVID-19

#48 Post by earendel » Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:16 am

BackInTex wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:26 pm
I'll simplify it.

Trump: I recommend getting vaccinated.
Trump: It is not required, you don't have to do it.

That is not waffling. It is 1) making a recommendation 2) ensuring folks understand it is not a mandate, just a recommendation.

I know some here have trouble actually processing correctly anything Trump says. Glad to help.
I concede that my use of the term "waffling" was incorrect.
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Re: Gov. Abbott has COVID-19

#49 Post by earendel » Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:53 am

Here's an interesting take on the "masks in restaurants" debate. Basilico's, an Italian restaurant in Huntington Beach, CA, instituted a policy in July requiring that patrons prove that they had NOT been vaccinated in order to enter. The restaurant advertised on billboards with the slogan "Leave the mask, take the cannoli". The owner describes his establishment as "a Constitutional Battleground...in defense of Liberty and Freedom" and has established an organization called "Make Restaurants Great Again".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilico%27s
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Re: Gov. Abbott has COVID-19

#50 Post by Beebs52 » Wed Aug 25, 2021 8:59 am

Bob78164 wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:21 am
BackInTex wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 8:46 pm
Bob78164 wrote:
Tue Aug 24, 2021 4:50 pm
Not in Florida, or in Texas. The Legislature took that right away from them, and the Governor signed the laws.

As a direct result, I'm more than a little skeptical that ACBL will move forward with the Fall Nationals currently scheduled for Austin. I think it'll become the sixth consecutive national tournament to be cancelled. --Bob
Can you cite a reference for Texas? I don’t know about Florida but Abbott’s ban on mandates only extends to governmental entities. Private entities can require customers and employees to wear masks.
Texas has banned businesses from requiring proof of vaccination. So has Florida. --Bob
Here is Abbott's executive order
https://gov.texas.gov/uploads/files/pre ... ccines.pdf
Well, then

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