RIP Bob Gibson

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silverscreenselect
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RIP Bob Gibson

#1 Post by silverscreenselect » Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:02 pm

St. Louis Cardinals Hall of Fame pitcher and one of the most overpowering ever, especially in 1968, when he had 13 shutouts (pitchers pitched more innings in a game back then and on three days rest instead of four) and a 1.12 ERA.

Age 84.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/300 ... ce-dies-84
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Re: RIP Bob Gibson

#2 Post by T_Bone0806 » Sat Oct 03, 2020 9:51 am

Rats. Gibson and Seaver in the same year. The batters up there in Heaven Stadium are going to have it a lot tougher. The angels (and I don't mean the California/Anaheim/Los Angeles kind) are going to have their halos knocked off their heads if they crowd the plate now. Gibson was one tough dude on the mound.
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Re: RIP Bob Gibson

#3 Post by wbtravis007 » Sat Oct 03, 2020 4:56 pm

Great all-around athlete. I saw him steal second against the Astros in the Dome. Probably around '65 or so. And I mean he just flat-out stole it -- no bad or flubbed pitch or anything like that. He had 13 career SBs -- (just looked it up).

I say it was probably around '65 because I would have been 11 or 12 then (depending on the month). I used to like to call in to a sports talk show around that age, just to get on the radio. Usually pretty sucky calls. I thought that it would be a good idea to let them know that night that I didn't think that it was a very good idea for a pitcher to risk injury like that. Pretty sure that the guys weren't impressed with my take.

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Re: RIP Bob Gibson

#4 Post by kroxquo » Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:24 am

I remember a story Tim McCarver told on the air about him from his days of catching him. There was one day, that Gibson was a little bit off (for him) and McCarver went out to the mound to talk to him. Before he could say a word, Gibson said, "What do you want? The only thing you know about pitching is that you can't hit it." Gibson was a ferocious competitor, but by all accounts a gentle man (in all senses of the word) off the field.
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Re: RIP Bob Gibson

#5 Post by wbtravis007 » Sun Oct 04, 2020 9:32 am

kroxquo wrote:
Sun Oct 04, 2020 6:24 am
I remember a story Tim McCarver told on the air about him from his days of catching him. There was one day, that Gibson was a little bit off (for him) and McCarver went out to the mound to talk to him. Before he could say a word, Gibson said, "What do you want? The only thing you know about pitching is that you can't hit it." Gibson was a ferocious competitor, but by all accounts a gentle man (in all senses of the word) off the field.
McCarver also said that Gibson was the luckiest pitcher he’d ever seen since so often he pitched on days that the other team didn’t score any runs.

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Re: RIP Bob Gibson

#6 Post by littlebeast13 » Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:33 pm

wbtravis007 wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 4:56 pm
Great all-around athlete. I saw him steal second against the Astros in the Dome. Probably around '65 or so. And I mean he just flat-out stole it -- no bad or flubbed pitch or anything like that. He had 13 career SBs -- (just looked it up).

I say it was probably around '65 because I would have been 11 or 12 then (depending on the month). I used to like to call in to a sports talk show around that age, just to get on the radio. Usually pretty sucky calls. I thought that it would be a good idea to let them know that night that I didn't think that it was a very good idea for a pitcher to risk injury like that. Pretty sure that the guys weren't impressed with my take.

Gibby never stole a base in either Houston park. Two of his steals came against the Astros in St. Louis. You can see his totals by ballpark in the splits below...

https://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/G/Jgibsb1010.htm

I don't do this to be a jerk... but I like checking people's memories (particularly mouthy broadcasters) because I find discrepancies between my memory of games I attended and the official records all the time too...

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Re: RIP Bob Gibson

#7 Post by wbtravis007 » Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:35 pm

littlebeast13 wrote:
Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:33 pm
wbtravis007 wrote:
Sat Oct 03, 2020 4:56 pm
Great all-around athlete. I saw him steal second against the Astros in the Dome. Probably around '65 or so. And I mean he just flat-out stole it -- no bad or flubbed pitch or anything like that. He had 13 career SBs -- (just looked it up).

I say it was probably around '65 because I would have been 11 or 12 then (depending on the month). I used to like to call in to a sports talk show around that age, just to get on the radio. Usually pretty sucky calls. I thought that it would be a good idea to let them know that night that I didn't think that it was a very good idea for a pitcher to risk injury like that. Pretty sure that the guys weren't impressed with my take.

Gibby never stole a base in either Houston park. Two of his steals came against the Astros in St. Louis. You can see his totals by ballpark in the splits below...

https://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/G/Jgibsb1010.htm

I don't do this to be a jerk... but I like checking people's memories (particularly mouthy broadcasters) because I find discrepancies between my memory of games I attended and the official records all the time too...

lb13

Hmmm. I totally get your point about how easy it is to have false memories. Reminds me of a comment I heard Elvin Hayes make about how if everyone who had told him that they had been at the Dome for the "Game of the Century" had actually been there the attendance would have been [some big number; can't remember what, but a lot more than than the 50,000 or so that were there]. And, he was saying that he thought that most of the people who had told him that actually believed that they were there. (I actually was there, and for years we had a little purple souvenir basketball that my brother had caught. Sure wish we still had that.)

Anyway, in this case, if somehow I was put into a situation where my life depended on answering the question correctly about whether my memory is correct and your link isn't, I'd have to go ahead and opt for my memory (albeit with some sense of trepidation). Reason I say that is the call that I made to the radio station that same night. That contemporaneous affirmation of that memory is pretty compelling, and there's zero chance that my memory about that call is not correct. The only possibility is that if instead of a stolen base, I was calling about him sliding into second when extending a hit to a double. (I noticed that he did hit one double in the Dome.) The thrust of the call was that I wanted to express that I questioned his judgment about risking injury by sliding into second base -- I'm 100% sure of that. (I know, I know. It was a really goosey call. Already admitted that.) So, I'll concede that there is a slight possibility that my memory about the stolen base is not correct, but, like I said, if my life depended on it I'd still go with it being accurate.

What I'm wondering, beast, is what your opinion is of the accuracy of every single stat in that site. In other words, would your position be that you'd vouch for 100% accuracy, with no errors whatsoever? Not trying to be overly defensive or argumentative here. I'm genuinely curious about your answer.
Last edited by wbtravis007 on Fri Oct 09, 2020 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: RIP Bob Gibson

#8 Post by silverscreenselect » Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:57 pm

wbtravis007 wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:35 pm
Hmmm. I totally get your point about how easy it is to have false memories. Reminds me of a comment I heard Elvin Hayes make about how if everyone who had told him that they had been at the Dome for the "Game of the Century" had actually been there the attendance would have been [some big number; can't remember what, but a lot more than than the 50,000 or so that were there]. And, he was saying that he thought that most of the people who had told him that actually believed that they were there. (I actually was there, and for years we had a little purple souvenir basketball that my brother had caught. Sure wish we still had that.)
I have three memorable baseball memories.

(1) I was there the day that Hoyt Wilhelm (who was well in his 40s at the time) pitched in his 1000th game. They handed out cards for the occasion, which I since lost.

(2) I was there the night after Hank Aaron hit his 715th home run. The Braves opened that season on the road with three games in Cincinnati with Aaron at 713. He hit 714 in the first game and then Ted Turner got in a squabble with Bowie Kuhn about whether to play Aaron the rest of the series or not. Bottom line was that the Braves returned home for a one-week homestand with Aaron at 714.

I was in law school at the time but still had friends here from my college days. So I made arrangements to come up on Tuesday with the idea that we would keep coming to games until it happened. Of course, Aaron hit 715 on Monday on the national TV game of the week. Needless to say, tickets were very, very, very easy to get for the next game.

(3) The summer before I started college, the Braves games were broadcast on the radio in Sarasota, where we lived at the time and they had a big promotion that was new for the time, Home Run for the Money. Each game they picked one inning as the home run inning and if a Brave hit a home run that inning, the contestant who had that batter would win a rollover jackpot that was $3600 at the time. And if it was a grand slam, there would be a $25000 bonus. So we were on vacation in Atlanta and my parents dropped off my brother and me to see the Braves play the San Diego Padres in a twi-night doubleheader (they still had regularly scheduled doubleheaders in those days). Sure enough, Tony Gonzalez hit a grand slam in one of the games and the contestant won a bundle (considering what average salaries were at the time, that represented a couple of years for many people). Milo Hamilton, the Braves announcer was going crazy about how Tony Gonzalez hit a GRAND SLAM HOME RUN FOR THE MONEY and they kept mentioning that woman's name in commercials for the rest of the season.
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Re: RIP Bob Gibson

#9 Post by littlebeast13 » Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:35 am

wbtravis007 wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:35 pm
Hmmm. I totally get your point about how easy it is to have false memories. Reminds me of a comment I heard Elvin Hayes make about how if everyone who had told him that they had been at the Dome for the "Game of the Century" had actually been there the attendance would have been [some big number; can't remember what, but a lot more than than the 50,000 or so that were there]. And, he was saying that he thought that most of the people who had told him that actually believed that they were there. (I actually was there, and for years we had a little purple souvenir basketball that my brother had caught. Sure wish we still had that.)

Anyway, in this case, if somehow I was put into a situation where my life depended on answering the question correctly about whether my memory is correct and your link isn't, I'd have to go ahead and opt for my memory (albeit with some sense of trepidation). Reason I say that is the call that I made to the radio station that same night. That contemporaneous affirmation of that memory is pretty compelling, and there's zero chance that my memory about that call is not correct. The only possibility is that if instead of a stolen base, I was calling about him sliding into second when extending a hit to a double. (I noticed that he did hit one double in the Dome.) The thrust of the call was that I wanted to express that I questioned his judgment about risking injury by sliding into second base -- I'm 100% sure of that. (I know, I know. It was a really goosey call. Already admitted that.) So, I'll concede that there is a slight possibility that my memory about the stolen base is not correct, but, like I said, if my life depended on it I'd still go with it being accurate.

What I'm wondering, beast, is what your opinion is of the accuracy of every single stat in that site. In other words, would your position be that you'd vouch for 100% accuracy, with no errors whatsoever? Not trying to be overly defensive or argumentative here. I'm genuinely curious about your answer.

Retrosheet does a pretty good job of trying to compile an accurate statistical history of Major League Baseball, going so far as to sort through the records compiled by official scorekeepers for each game and comparing them with MLB's "official" totals and noting numerous discrepancies between the two and often times even outright mistakes (i.e., a player with more homeruns than RBI's in a game). That's largely in the pre-WW2 era, though. 1965ish is kinda on the recent end of the twilight zone between the sloppy (but still pretty darned accurate) record keeping of its early years and the more modern days when there are so many people and organizations interested in baseball statistics that there's almost no way an error could possibly get through.

That said.... while I would stand by the official account from a site like Retrosheet, I would not stake my life to Bob Gibson never stealing a base in Houston simply because official scorekeepers do make mistakes, and if those mistakes aren't caught, they become an official part of the record. Who knows, it might have happened. I was at a game in 1997 where the Twins announced CF and RF actually played at the opposite positions during the game. The scoreboard operator didn't catch the mistake until late in the game, but the positions were listed incorrectly in the newspaper box score the next day, and were still incorrect the first time I got to check the box score online sometime in the early 2000's. It did eventually get corrected...

Incidentally, the double Gibson hit in Houston was in 1972, which seems too late. Was he maybe trying to break up a double play? That's an injury slide waiting to happen.... especially for someone who played as aggressively as Gibson did...

Incidentally Part II, I'd rather argue about stuff like this than that garbage in the political threads any day....

lb13
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Re: RIP Bob Gibson

#10 Post by Earl the Squirrel » Mon Oct 12, 2020 8:15 am

littlebeast13 wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:35 am
wbtravis007 wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:35 pm
Hmmm. I totally get your point about how easy it is to have false memories. Reminds me of a comment I heard Elvin Hayes make about how if everyone who had told him that they had been at the Dome for the "Game of the Century" had actually been there the attendance would have been [some big number; can't remember what, but a lot more than than the 50,000 or so that were there]. And, he was saying that he thought that most of the people who had told him that actually believed that they were there. (I actually was there, and for years we had a little purple souvenir basketball that my brother had caught. Sure wish we still had that.)

Anyway, in this case, if somehow I was put into a situation where my life depended on answering the question correctly about whether my memory is correct and your link isn't, I'd have to go ahead and opt for my memory (albeit with some sense of trepidation). Reason I say that is the call that I made to the radio station that same night. That contemporaneous affirmation of that memory is pretty compelling, and there's zero chance that my memory about that call is not correct. The only possibility is that if instead of a stolen base, I was calling about him sliding into second when extending a hit to a double. (I noticed that he did hit one double in the Dome.) The thrust of the call was that I wanted to express that I questioned his judgment about risking injury by sliding into second base -- I'm 100% sure of that. (I know, I know. It was a really goosey call. Already admitted that.) So, I'll concede that there is a slight possibility that my memory about the stolen base is not correct, but, like I said, if my life depended on it I'd still go with it being accurate.

What I'm wondering, beast, is what your opinion is of the accuracy of every single stat in that site. In other words, would your position be that you'd vouch for 100% accuracy, with no errors whatsoever? Not trying to be overly defensive or argumentative here. I'm genuinely curious about your answer.

Retrosheet does a pretty good job of trying to compile an accurate statistical history of Major League Baseball, going so far as to sort through the records compiled by official scorekeepers for each game and comparing them with MLB's "official" totals and noting numerous discrepancies between the two and often times even outright mistakes (i.e., a player with more homeruns than RBI's in a game). That's largely in the pre-WW2 era, though. 1965ish is kinda on the recent end of the twilight zone between the sloppy (but still pretty darned accurate) record keeping of its early years and the more modern days when there are so many people and organizations interested in baseball statistics that there's almost no way an error could possibly get through.

That said.... while I would stand by the official account from a site like Retrosheet, I would not stake my life to Bob Gibson never stealing a base in Houston simply because official scorekeepers do make mistakes, and if those mistakes aren't caught, they become an official part of the record. Who knows, it might have happened. I was at a game in 1997 where the Twins announced CF and RF actually played at the opposite positions during the game. The scoreboard operator didn't catch the mistake until late in the game, but the positions were listed incorrectly in the newspaper box score the next day, and were still incorrect the first time I got to check the box score online sometime in the early 2000's. It did eventually get corrected...

Incidentally, the double Gibson hit in Houston was in 1972, which seems too late. Was he maybe trying to break up a double play? That's an injury slide waiting to happen.... especially for someone who played as aggressively as Gibson did...

Incidentally Part II, I'd rather argue about stuff like this than that garbage in the political threads any day....

lb13
I love shit like this! There's even a name for it The Mandela Effect (if I had bothered to actually look it up for you, there would be a --Bob type link indicated by blue font there). Sort of a companion piece to Perth Amboy! (not sure google will pick up on that, but Mini would know it...ha!).

This always makes me think of a story similar to that mentioned about Elvin Hayes.,,

I watched a great doc a few years ago about Wilt Chamberlain's 100 point game, called, I think, just 100. Or maybe Wilt, sadly it bit the dust when my dvr did (( know, I know, burn the stuff you want to keep!). Bajillions of people would swear they saw that game on tv (it was not televised) or were actually at the game in Philly (it was played in Hershey) or just 'at the game' (little Hershey arena was less than half full). There weren't even any media there. That famous picture of him holding up the 100 sign was actually just a piece of paper that the photog (can't remember his name either, but I think he's passed since the doc was filmed) grabbed, borrowed a pen from somebody and wrote 100, then handed it to Wilt and said "hold this up".

Man, what a great show that was, I need to look around on my Firestick and see if I can find it somewhere.

Meanwhile, Bob Gibson. I could swear he had already passed. Ditto with Gale Sayers. At least with that one, I think I had him thrown in a melting pot with Brian Piccolo and Walter Payton somehow. For Gibson, I don't know. Have any other hard nosed, no nonsense, black pitchers from the 60s or 70s passed in the last several years?

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Re: RIP Bob Gibson

#11 Post by wbtravis007 » Wed Oct 14, 2020 9:50 am

littlebeast13 wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 7:35 am
wbtravis007 wrote:
Fri Oct 09, 2020 12:35 pm
Hmmm. I totally get your point about how easy it is to have false memories. Reminds me of a comment I heard Elvin Hayes make about how if everyone who had told him that they had been at the Dome for the "Game of the Century" had actually been there the attendance would have been [some big number; can't remember what, but a lot more than than the 50,000 or so that were there]. And, he was saying that he thought that most of the people who had told him that actually believed that they were there. (I actually was there, and for years we had a little purple souvenir basketball that my brother had caught. Sure wish we still had that.)

Anyway, in this case, if somehow I was put into a situation where my life depended on answering the question correctly about whether my memory is correct and your link isn't, I'd have to go ahead and opt for my memory (albeit with some sense of trepidation). Reason I say that is the call that I made to the radio station that same night. That contemporaneous affirmation of that memory is pretty compelling, and there's zero chance that my memory about that call is not correct. The only possibility is that if instead of a stolen base, I was calling about him sliding into second when extending a hit to a double. (I noticed that he did hit one double in the Dome.) The thrust of the call was that I wanted to express that I questioned his judgment about risking injury by sliding into second base -- I'm 100% sure of that. (I know, I know. It was a really goosey call. Already admitted that.) So, I'll concede that there is a slight possibility that my memory about the stolen base is not correct, but, like I said, if my life depended on it I'd still go with it being accurate.

What I'm wondering, beast, is what your opinion is of the accuracy of every single stat in that site. In other words, would your position be that you'd vouch for 100% accuracy, with no errors whatsoever? Not trying to be overly defensive or argumentative here. I'm genuinely curious about your answer.

Retrosheet does a pretty good job of trying to compile an accurate statistical history of Major League Baseball, going so far as to sort through the records compiled by official scorekeepers for each game and comparing them with MLB's "official" totals and noting numerous discrepancies between the two and often times even outright mistakes (i.e., a player with more homeruns than RBI's in a game). That's largely in the pre-WW2 era, though. 1965ish is kinda on the recent end of the twilight zone between the sloppy (but still pretty darned accurate) record keeping of its early years and the more modern days when there are so many people and organizations interested in baseball statistics that there's almost no way an error could possibly get through.

That said.... while I would stand by the official account from a site like Retrosheet, I would not stake my life to Bob Gibson never stealing a base in Houston simply because official scorekeepers do make mistakes, and if those mistakes aren't caught, they become an official part of the record. Who knows, it might have happened. I was at a game in 1997 where the Twins announced CF and RF actually played at the opposite positions during the game. The scoreboard operator didn't catch the mistake until late in the game, but the positions were listed incorrectly in the newspaper box score the next day, and were still incorrect the first time I got to check the box score online sometime in the early 2000's. It did eventually get corrected...

Incidentally, the double Gibson hit in Houston was in 1972, which seems too late. Was he maybe trying to break up a double play? That's an injury slide waiting to happen.... especially for someone who played as aggressively as Gibson did...

Incidentally Part II, I'd rather argue about stuff like this than that garbage in the political threads any day....

lb13
Okay, beast. Upon further review ...

I get why you'd be skeptical about whether there was a statistical error made -- (but thanks for at least not ruling that out entirely) -- but I really didn't think that a slide to break up a double play was what I witnessed. For some reason I started thinking about this in the shower this morning and it hit me that maybe what I saw was him trying to steal second and being thrown out. Certainly possible that my mind is playing tricks on me after all these years.

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