WWTBAM Bored

Our young men crave rights of passage, which we have taken from them. They can't help it. It is who they are to the core of their soul.

The following is mostly from a commentary on Sebastian Junger's book "Tribe."

>>>This is one of the points that Sebastian Junger points put in his book TRIBE. In every society known to men young men has gone through some kind of test to prove their manhood.

Except for ours post digital revolution<<<

>>>So as Sebastian Junger asks in TRIBE: What will young men do in a society without rites of passage?

They will make one themself or they will bottle it up until they snap.<<<<

What an interesting post. I thought, don't we have rites of passage, such as high school graduation? But I read more and learned that those don't make young men and women feel like they're essential to society. Junger says "What people mind is not feeling necessary. A society that doesn't offer its members the opportunity to act selflessly . . . it isn't a society in any tribal sense. It's just a political entity that, lacking enemies, will probably fall apart on its own."

I wonder if countries like Israel where military service is almost universal have fewer of these problems. Maybe our society would benefit if every young adult performed community service for a couple of years. It wouldn't have to be mandatory; college scholarships and employment opportunities are good incentives.

Combining both Spock's and jargon's thoughts here. It's pretty clear that we don't have a standard rite of passage... perhaps this is why it seems that adolescence now extends to about age 30.

Agree with jargon that some sort of common experience would help. It's not a discrete event like high school graduation.. I think it's a transforming experience. It could be military service, or some other type of service-related commitment.

I wonder why it is that older generations constantly need some way to belittle the younger ones?

Is the premise here that the Baby Boomers had a rite of passage for their young men? I guess you could argue that the draft was one, and while I disagree with it, there's at least an argument to be made.

But let me grant Spock's premise: that every single other culture known to humanity has had rites of passage for young males forever, until this most recent 20 year window. If this is so -- if this is really true -- how can you claim to know what happens WITHOUT a rite of passage? Maybe a lack of rite of passage is really the key to eternal life. Or a matriarchy. Or Utopia (if that's not redundant).

Unless the unspoken, rather insidious claim is that somehow the lack of a rite of passage is what's leading to mass shootings among young white men, in which case I call bullshit. A simple expansion of the focus beyond the US gives the lie to that claim.

I reared three young males, born in 1991, 94, and 96. If they experienced a rite of passage, I don't know about it. What I do know is that they are compassionate, considerate young men -- and yes, I do mean men, not some cartoon definition of the word -- who don't show any signs of snapping, and no signs of desperately needing a rite of passage in the core of their very souls.

mrkelley23 wrote:I wonder why it is that older generations constantly need some way to belittle the younger ones?

Is the premise here that the Baby Boomers had a rite of passage for their young men? I guess you could argue that the draft was one, and while I disagree with it, there's at least an argument to be made.

But let me grant Spock's premise: that every single other culture known to humanity has had rites of passage for young males forever, until this most recent 20 year window. If this is so -- if this is really true -- how can you claim to know what happens WITHOUT a rite of passage? Maybe a lack of rite of passage is really the key to eternal life. Or a matriarchy. Or Utopia (if that's not redundant).

Unless the unspoken, rather insidious claim is that somehow the lack of a rite of passage is what's leading to mass shootings among young white men, in which case I call bullshit. A simple expansion of the focus beyond the US gives the lie to that claim.

I reared three young males, born in 1991, 94, and 96. If they experienced a rite of passage, I don't know about it. What I do know is that they are compassionate, considerate young men -- and yes, I do mean men, not some cartoon definition of the word -- who don't show any signs of snapping, and no signs of desperately needing a rite of passage in the core of their very souls.

I agree.

For my generation, the rite of passage was protests against Vietnam and Watergate. Many young people today can relate to that.

I doubt that youths crave rites of passage in the core of their souls, but I think they build a sense of community and what we used to call character.

jarnon wrote:For my generation, the rite of passage was protests against Vietnam and Watergate. Many young people today can relate to that.

I doubt that youths crave rites of passage in the core of their souls, but I think they build a sense of community and what we used to call character.

I think many life events themselves are rites of passage. For example, my dad died when I was 14.

Beebs52 wrote:

mrkelley23 wrote:I wonder why it is that older generations constantly need some way to belittle the younger ones?

Is the premise here that the Baby Boomers had a rite of passage for their young men? I guess you could argue that the draft was one, and while I disagree with it, there's at least an argument to be made.

But let me grant Spock's premise: that every single other culture known to humanity has had rites of passage for young males forever, until this most recent 20 year window. If this is so -- if this is really true -- how can you claim to know what happens WITHOUT a rite of passage? Maybe a lack of rite of passage is really the key to eternal life. Or a matriarchy. Or Utopia (if that's not redundant).

Unless the unspoken, rather insidious claim is that somehow the lack of a rite of passage is what's leading to mass shootings among young white men, in which case I call bullshit. A simple expansion of the focus beyond the US gives the lie to that claim.

I reared three young males, born in 1991, 94, and 96. If they experienced a rite of passage, I don't know about it. What I do know is that they are compassionate, considerate young men -- and yes, I do mean men, not some cartoon definition of the word -- who don't show any signs of snapping, and no signs of desperately needing a rite of passage in the core of their very souls.

I agree.

I am a fan of the concept some sort of service after either HS or college. It could be a broad concept, tailored for geographic areas or similar and include a variety of options - community, military, Peace Corps, using apprenticeships to help with Habitat for Humanity or some similar endeavor, Big Brothers, assisting with PALs, a revamped CCC, AmeriCorps.

But SOMETHING.

That said, I agree with mr k and Beebs that the lack of rites of passage is not a cause-and-effect for the mass shooting among young white men.

mellytu74 wrote:

Beebs52 wrote:

mrkelley23 wrote:I wonder why it is that older generations constantly need some way to belittle the younger ones?

Is the premise here that the Baby Boomers had a rite of passage for their young men? I guess you could argue that the draft was one, and while I disagree with it, there's at least an argument to be made.

But let me grant Spock's premise: that every single other culture known to humanity has had rites of passage for young males forever, until this most recent 20 year window. If this is so -- if this is really true -- how can you claim to know what happens WITHOUT a rite of passage? Maybe a lack of rite of passage is really the key to eternal life. Or a matriarchy. Or Utopia (if that's not redundant).

Unless the unspoken, rather insidious claim is that somehow the lack of a rite of passage is what's leading to mass shootings among young white men, in which case I call bullshit. A simple expansion of the focus beyond the US gives the lie to that claim.

I reared three young males, born in 1991, 94, and 96. If they experienced a rite of passage, I don't know about it. What I do know is that they are compassionate, considerate young men -- and yes, I do mean men, not some cartoon definition of the word -- who don't show any signs of snapping, and no signs of desperately needing a rite of passage in the core of their very souls.

I agree.

I am a fan of the concept some sort of service after either HS or college. It could be a broad concept, tailored for geographic areas or similar and include a variety of options - community, military, Peace Corps, using apprenticeships to help with Habitat for Humanity or some similar endeavor, Big Brothers, assisting with PALs, a revamped CCC, AmeriCorps.

But SOMETHING.

That said, I agree with mr k and Beebs that the lack of rites of passage is not a cause-and-effect for the mass shooting among young white men.

Nowadays some sort of community service is de riguer starting in grade school, so there's that, too.

Beebs52 wrote:

mellytu74 wrote:

Beebs52 wrote: I agree.

I am a fan of the concept some sort of service after either HS or college. It could be a broad concept, tailored for geographic areas or similar and include a variety of options - community, military, Peace Corps, using apprenticeships to help with Habitat for Humanity or some similar endeavor, Big Brothers, assisting with PALs, a revamped CCC, AmeriCorps.

But SOMETHING.

That said, I agree with mr k and Beebs that the lack of rites of passage is not a cause-and-effect for the mass shooting among young white men.

Nowadays some sort of community service is de riguer starting in grade school, so there's that, too.

Excellent point!!

mellytu74 wrote:

Beebs52 wrote:

mrkelley23 wrote:I wonder why it is that older generations constantly need some way to belittle the younger ones?

Is the premise here that the Baby Boomers had a rite of passage for their young men? I guess you could argue that the draft was one, and while I disagree with it, there's at least an argument to be made.

But let me grant Spock's premise: that every single other culture known to humanity has had rites of passage for young males forever, until this most recent 20 year window. If this is so -- if this is really true -- how can you claim to know what happens WITHOUT a rite of passage? Maybe a lack of rite of passage is really the key to eternal life. Or a matriarchy. Or Utopia (if that's not redundant).

Unless the unspoken, rather insidious claim is that somehow the lack of a rite of passage is what's leading to mass shootings among young white men, in which case I call bullshit. A simple expansion of the focus beyond the US gives the lie to that claim.

I reared three young males, born in 1991, 94, and 96. If they experienced a rite of passage, I don't know about it. What I do know is that they are compassionate, considerate young men -- and yes, I do mean men, not some cartoon definition of the word -- who don't show any signs of snapping, and no signs of desperately needing a rite of passage in the core of their very souls.

I agree.

I am a fan of the concept some sort of service after either HS or college. It could be a broad concept, tailored for geographic areas or similar and include a variety of options - community, military, Peace Corps, using apprenticeships to help with Habitat for Humanity or some similar endeavor, Big Brothers, assisting with PALs, a revamped CCC, AmeriCorps.

But SOMETHING.

That said, I agree with mr k and Beebs that the lack of rites of passage is not a cause-and-effect for the mass shooting among young white men.

Maybe it's because I grew up scared of the draft, but the idea of mandatory (or in some way coerced) community service gives me the heebie jeebies. But if we're talking about expanding opportunities for voluntary community service, for me that's a horse of an entirely different color. --Bob

<my thoughts>

What is a rite of passage but a realization or belief that one is now an adult and the perceived acknowledgment by one's societal group? Both are needed (I feel as though I'm an adult and I believe those around me think so as well) to be content with one's adult self.

Self realization, depending on upbringing, can be a scaled process or a defining moment (such as the rite).
Perceived acknowledgement also can be a journey or event.
Both do not necessarily need to happen simultaneously and one can be the process or journey and one can be the single moment. It is all in the mind of the person.

I do believe that formal ceremonies or events help some people get there who may not otherwise get there. But I think most get there on their own. Those that need the formal process but don't get it are likely to become social misfits or outcasts and likely unsuccessful in life. This could lead to violent anti-social behaviors, but not always, or even most of the time. But with 300 million people, a small percent can make a big splash in today's world.

</my thoughts>

BackInTex wrote:<my thoughts>

What is a rite of passage but a realization or belief that one is now an adult and the perceived acknowledgment by one's societal group? Both are needed (I feel as though I'm an adult and I believe those around me think so as well) to be content with one's adult self.

Self realization, depending on upbringing, can be a scaled process or a defining moment (such as the rite).
Perceived acknowledgement also can be a journey or event.
Both do not necessarily need to happen simultaneously and one can be the process or journey and one can be the single moment. It is all in the mind of the person.

I do believe that formal ceremonies or events help some people get there who may not otherwise get there. But I think most get there on their own. Those that need the formal process but don't get it are likely to become social misfits or outcasts and likely unsuccessful in life. This could lead to violent anti-social behaviors, but not always, or even most of the time. But with 300 million people, a small percent can make a big splash in today's world.

</my thoughts>

yep