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silverscreenselect
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Re: The Harvey List

#76 Post by silverscreenselect » Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:48 am

flockofseagulls104 wrote: Is making someone 'uncomfortable' now considered a federal offense? If he just asked them to be surrogates, they could have just said no. But, again, I don't know the whole story. But CNN thinks talking about it or asking someone is just awful.
You do not ask women who work for you to be surrogates. That is sexual harassment. Apparently two of them complained, separately. And this was Paul Ryan of all people who launched the ethics inquiry, not the women going public through the media.

Now that the cat is out of the bag, so to speak, don't be surprised when the details and accusations keep coming out. THat's the pattern in every one of these cases.
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Re: The Harvey List

#77 Post by silverscreenselect » Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:53 am

Let's add Bryan Singer to the list:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/mov ... 933265001/

This puts his firing from the Freddie Mercury biopic Bohemian Rhapsody this week in a new light. The studio may have been trying to do some advance damage control.
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Re: The Harvey List

#78 Post by ghostjmf » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:41 am

flock:

Asking a subordinate to do anything they haven't signed up to do is an implied threat: "this is now part of the job". The threat Franks offered went way beyond "bring me coffee on your way in to work" or "you'll be working Sundays, unpaid".

That he would actually expect them to give birth for him & his wife with the implied threat of losing their jobs if they don't is ridiculous. You can die giving birth. You may require a caesarian section, which may dictate your future own children may have to be delivered that way. Your body undergoes changes during pregnancy which involves health risks which may not go away afterwards.

There are people who offer this service voluntarily, for family members & friends, knowing the risks.

There are also people who offer this service for a fee. In my opinion, not nearly high enough a fee. Usually the fee isn't high enough because the people offering the service are desperate for money. If you want a surrogate whom you're sure is not going to do drugs, including alcohol, or take any medicine that would affect the fetus, they might be hard to find when they're not a friend or relative.

Tough. Don't threaten your staff.

No, this is not "being touchy".

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Re: The Harvey List

#79 Post by ghostjmf » Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:57 am

If I walk up to a friend, or a stranger on the street for that matter, & say "I'm looking for a pregnancy surrogate", or even just "let's discuss my need for a pregnancy surrogate", that's far, far different from having the conversation with a workplace subordinate, a tenant, a student or anyone else I have power over.

Its the power-relationship that makes it a threat, not just a discussion.

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Re: The Harvey List

#80 Post by silverscreenselect » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:26 am

ghostjmf wrote:If I walk up to a friend, or a stranger on the street for that matter, & say "I'm looking for a pregnancy surrogate", or even just "let's discuss my need for a pregnancy surrogate", that's far, far different from having the conversation with a workplace subordinate, a tenant, a student or anyone else I have power over.

Its the power-relationship that makes it a threat, not just a discussion.
The only thing we have to go on right now is Frank's self-serving statement of resignation. As near as I can tell, this came out of the blue. But then again, most allegations of sexual misconduct come out of the blue since those in the know in politics, the film industry, journalism, and other fields have tended to keep quiet. Kevin Spacey and Harvey Weistein's predations were apparently common knowledge in the film industry (Gabriel Byrne said they had to shut down shooting on The Usual Suspects 20 years ago because of some of Spacey's antics), but no one said anything until the dam broke.

There's a pattern in businesses of all types to keep these claims quiet, settle things confidentially and get non-disclosure statements from the complainants. The women who accused Frank haven't made their complaints public, nor has anyone else... yet. So we have no one's version of what went on other than Frank's This isn't a matter of he said, she said. It's a matter of he described what she said and we haven't heard from her yet. Some men like to talk about sexual matters around women precisely because they know it makes the women uncomfortable. This is one step removed from Louie C.K. showing off his anatomy. Instead, Frank talks about his (perhaps indirectly) with women who work for him and don't want to hear about it. And keep in mind that's according to Frank's prepared statement version, which we have to assume was crafted to cast him in the most favorable light possible.
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Re: The Harvey List

#81 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:58 am

That he would actually expect them to give birth for him & his wife with the implied threat of losing their jobs if they don't is ridiculous.
You are making a big leap there. I would be glad to entertain any evidence that you have seen that indicated anything like that happened. I haven't seen any.

And if someone said to me 'either let me impregnate you and carry my baby for 9 months or you lose your job' the answer would be pretty easy. (Well, if I identified as a girl that day, I suppose).
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Re: The Harvey List

#82 Post by Bob78164 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:29 am

flockofseagulls104 wrote:
ghostjmf wrote:Re Franks wanting his staff to be pregnancy surrogates:

This is physical threat. Your boss wants you to be an incubator; do you want to keep your job? Maybe they need a kidney or an arm transplant next.
I'm not sure where you got that one from. I haven't heard anything about him threatening anyone or demanding it. Just discussing it.
In his statement, Franks acknowledged he made staffers "uncomfortable" and that he discussed fertility issues and surrogacy with two female staffers, but denied having ever "physically intimidated, coerced, or had, or attempted to have, any sexual contact with any member of my congressional staff."
Apparently, he and his wife had twins using a surrogate before, because they couldn't get pregnant on their own. I don't know the whole story. (And I remind you, dear reader, neither do you.) Is making someone 'uncomfortable' now considered a federal offense? If he just asked them to be surrogates, they could have just said no. But, again, I don't know the whole story. But CNN thinks talking about it or asking someone is just awful.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/07/politics/ ... index.html

Sorry, I just don't agree with that.

Are we getting a little too touchy here?
No, we're not. You seem to have a completely unrealistic view of workplace power dynamics. This isn't someone asking a friend to fill that role. This is a boss asking subordinates. It is next to impossible to make that request without at least an implied threat of adverse employment activity. --Bob
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Re: The Harvey List

#83 Post by ghostjmf » Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:34 am

flock:

First of all, we all know that surrogacy is done by embryo implantation. By Drs. I'll bet its not a pleasant experience, based on my own experience of gynecological exams, but its not what "impregnated by" is usually taken to mean.

Having said that, its carrying the fetus & giving birth to a baby that's the threat here. Well, in addition to being subjected to painful gynecological procedures.

Since he's supposed to have said he wanted them to carry & give birth, a 9-month endeavor, the threat is implied in what will happen if they don't.

The same as "the threat is implied in what will happen if they don't" to sexual predator victims in the entertainment industry ("no more movie roles for you").

I don't view Franks' proposals as sexual predation, since he's not actually proposing he impregnate them by means of his person, but physical threat: "Your body shall be used as my family's incubator".

When a boss makes a suggestion like that, its an implied threat.

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Re: The Harvey List

#84 Post by jarnon » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:32 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:
ghostjmf wrote:Re Franks wanting his staff to be pregnancy surrogates:

This is physical threat. Your boss wants you to be an incubator; do you want to keep your job? Maybe they need a kidney or an arm transplant next.
I'm not sure where you got that one from. I haven't heard anything about him threatening anyone or demanding it. Just discussing it.
In his statement, Franks acknowledged he made staffers "uncomfortable" and that he discussed fertility issues and surrogacy with two female staffers, but denied having ever "physically intimidated, coerced, or had, or attempted to have, any sexual contact with any member of my congressional staff."
Apparently, he and his wife had twins using a surrogate before, because they couldn't get pregnant on their own. I don't know the whole story. (And I remind you, dear reader, neither do you.) Is making someone 'uncomfortable' now considered a federal offense? If he just asked them to be surrogates, they could have just said no. But, again, I don't know the whole story. But CNN thinks talking about it or asking someone is just awful.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/12/07/politics/ ... index.html

Sorry, I just don't agree with that.

Are we getting a little too touchy here?
Paul Ryan came down hard on Franks. I'm guessing there's more to the story than the public knows.
Last edited by jarnon on Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Harvey List

#85 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:33 pm

"Carry my baby or you're fired"?

Do you REALLY think that's what happened? That is ridiculous. It's like saying "Get a tatoo of my name on your forehead or you're fired" I don't think so.
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Re: The Harvey List

#86 Post by Bob78164 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:53 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:"Carry my baby or you're fired"?

Do you REALLY think that's what happened? That is ridiculous. It's like saying "Get a tatoo of my name on your forehead or you're fired" I don't think so.
It's rarely that crass. More often it's something like: "Carry my baby. By the way, on a completely unrelated note, we need to schedule your performance review." --Bob
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Re: The Harvey List

#87 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:06 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote:"Carry my baby or you're fired"?

Do you REALLY think that's what happened? That is ridiculous. It's like saying "Get a tatoo of my name on your forehead or you're fired" I don't think so.
It's rarely that crass. More often it's something like: "Carry my baby. By the way, on a completely unrelated note, we need to schedule your performance review." --Bob
It's rarely that crass? I guess it happens every day. I guess every woman knows some supervisor or manager in their past that have asked them to be a surrogate, right bob?
Your friendly neighborhood racist. On the waiting list to be a nazi. Designated an honorary 'snowflake'. Trolled by the very best, as well as by BJ. Always typical, unlike others.., Fulminator, Hopelessly in the tank for trump... inappropriate... Flocking himself... Probably a tucking sexist, too... All thought comes from the right wing noise machine(TM)... A clear and present threat to The Future Of Our Democracy.. Doesn't understand anything... Made the trump apologist and enabler playoffs... Heathen bastard... Knows nothing about history... Liar

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Re: The Harvey List

#88 Post by Bob78164 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:23 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote:"Carry my baby or you're fired"?

Do you REALLY think that's what happened? That is ridiculous. It's like saying "Get a tatoo of my name on your forehead or you're fired" I don't think so.
It's rarely that crass. More often it's something like: "Carry my baby. By the way, on a completely unrelated note, we need to schedule your performance review." --Bob
It's rarely that crass? I guess it happens every day. I guess every woman knows some supervisor or manager in their past that have asked them to be a surrogate, right bob?
We have an employment law practice as part of our firm. I can't tell you (literally, I can't tell you -- it's privileged) how often incidents of quid pro quo sexual harassment come to light within our clients.

If you think such incidents are in any way rare, then you've lived a very sheltered life. --Bob
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Re: The Harvey List

#89 Post by flockofseagulls104 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:31 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:It's rarely that crass. More often it's something like: "Carry my baby. By the way, on a completely unrelated note, we need to schedule your performance review." --Bob
It's rarely that crass? I guess it happens every day. I guess every woman knows some supervisor or manager in their past that have asked them to be a surrogate, right bob?
We have an employment law practice as part of our firm. I can't tell you (literally, I can't tell you -- it's privileged) how often incidents of quid pro quo sexual harassment come to light within our clients.

If you think such incidents are in any way rare, then you've lived a very sheltered life. --Bob
if it's an everyday thing for a boss to ask a woman that works for him to be inseminated and carry his baby, then yeah, I've lived a sheltered life.
Your friendly neighborhood racist. On the waiting list to be a nazi. Designated an honorary 'snowflake'. Trolled by the very best, as well as by BJ. Always typical, unlike others.., Fulminator, Hopelessly in the tank for trump... inappropriate... Flocking himself... Probably a tucking sexist, too... All thought comes from the right wing noise machine(TM)... A clear and present threat to The Future Of Our Democracy.. Doesn't understand anything... Made the trump apologist and enabler playoffs... Heathen bastard... Knows nothing about history... Liar

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Re: The Harvey List

#90 Post by silverscreenselect » Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:20 pm

flockofseagulls104 wrote:
Bob78164 wrote:
flockofseagulls104 wrote:
It's rarely that crass? I guess it happens every day. I guess every woman knows some supervisor or manager in their past that have asked them to be a surrogate, right bob?
We have an employment law practice as part of our firm. I can't tell you (literally, I can't tell you -- it's privileged) how often incidents of quid pro quo sexual harassment come to light within our clients.

If you think such incidents are in any way rare, then you've lived a very sheltered life. --Bob
if it's an everyday thing for a boss to ask a woman that works for him to be inseminated and carry his baby, then yeah, I've lived a sheltered life.
Some more details emerge. Being a surrogate is rare, but just about everything else in this article happens too frequently.
A former staffer also alleged that Franks tried to persuade a female aide that they were in love by having her read an article that described how a person knows they’re in love with someone, the sources said. One woman believed she was the subject of retribution after rebuffing Franks. While she enjoyed access to the congressman before the incident, that access was revoked afterward, she told Republican leaders.
https://www.politico.com/story/2017/12/ ... ate-287808

The former staffer said the congressman at least four times asked if she’d be willing to act as a surrogate in exchange for money. The former aide said the conversations took place in private, sometimes in the congressman’s car, and that she repeatedly told him she wasn’t interested. She said she never filed a formal complaint because until recently she didn’t know where to go, but that his behavior had made her feel uncomfortable.

The Associated Press verified the identity of the staffer and confirmed that she worked in Franks’ office. She asked that her name be withheld out of concern for her privacy.“During my time there, I was asked a few times to look over a ‘contract’ to carry his child, and if I would conceive his child, I would be given $5 million,” she said, adding that she refused to look over the contract and has never seen a copy.

The woman said the requests shocked her, and made her feel afraid that if she didn’t agree, she would face professional consequences. She said she spoke to another aide in the office, who had also been approached about surrogacy. The aide cited the surrogacy requests as “a main reason” for leaving the office, adding that she felt retaliated against after turning down the congressman, ignored by Franks and not given many assignments.
https://apnews.com/8eb4e03d95d4471881d8 ... -his-child
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Re: The Harvey List

#91 Post by ghostjmf » Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:42 pm

5 million dollars to be a surrogate, says CBS nightly news tonight.

You could get a real good non-employee surrogate for that.

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Re: The Harvey List

#92 Post by Bob78164 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:27 pm

ghostjmf wrote:5 million dollars to be a surrogate, says CBS nightly news tonight.

You could get a real good non-employee surrogate for that.
Wow. That's about 100 times the going rate in California. --Bob
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Re: The Harvey List

#93 Post by silverscreenselect » Fri Dec 08, 2017 6:29 pm

Bob78164 wrote:
ghostjmf wrote:5 million dollars to be a surrogate, says CBS nightly news tonight.

You could get a real good non-employee surrogate for that.
Wow. That's about 100 times the going rate in California. --Bob
And about 1 million times my going rate.
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Re: The Harvey List

#94 Post by Pastor Fireball » Fri Dec 08, 2017 9:44 pm

Former Tennessee congressman and MSNBC contributor Harold Ford Jr.

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/12/07/b ... nduct.html
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Re: The Harvey List

#96 Post by silverscreenselect » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:48 am

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Re: The Harvey List

#97 Post by ghostjmf » Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:52 am

urp.

Add local but syndicated-nationwide radio host of On Point on NPR, Tom Ashbrook. After a weekend of being told "unrevealed charges", WBUR, where the show originates, did their own sleuthing & found out the charges are that he delivers tirades to & berates employees of any gender in team meetings & otherwise in front of other employees. And there *are* occasional "unsolicited back-rubs & hugs" given to female employees supposedly in apology after the tirade is over.

If you wondered why this is in the Harvey list & not in some other list started up about bullying bosses.

Its mainly on here so that I can express how pissed I am at people I had previously admired who are on this list.

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Re: The Harvey List

#98 Post by ghostjmf » Mon Dec 11, 2017 10:24 am

Complainants who *have* complained to the employer before now were told to "write Ashbrook a letter" & "he's the star so you have to put up with his temper".

Oh yeah; some of the reports say there were also discussions on "creepy sexual topics".

And to think that previously I've only been mad to read that he didn't read all the books he'd discussed on the show, but had them excerpted by underlings.

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Re: The Harvey List

#99 Post by silverscreenselect » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:13 am

ghostjmf wrote: the charges are that he delivers tirades to & berates employees of any gender in team meetings & otherwise in front of other employees.
If you fired every boss who was guilty of this, the unemployment rate would be back up in double digits.
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Re: The Harvey List

#100 Post by ghostjmf » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:41 am

SSS:

Yeah, but you *should* fire every boss who is guilty of this. I don't think, seriously, that it would double-digit unemployment. You'd just have a lot of unemployed creepy bosses, but they'd be far outnumbered by happier underlings, & happy new overlings appointed in BadBosses' places.

Its clear that the complainants against Ashbrook have seized the day, as their prime complaint is being belittled & not the unwanted hugs, etc.

A lot of them *did* quit, in succession, causing people who stayed to complain to management that "he's chasing good people away".

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